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F-16s & Orions used as a threat

Ottawa urges Pakistan to lift its state of emergency
Janice Tibbetts, CanWest News Service
Published: Saturday, November 03, 2007
OTTAWA - Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister, Maxime Bernier, urged the government of Pakistan on Saturday to lift its state of emergency, reinstate the fired judiciary and allow free and fair parliamentary elections to proceed as planned.

Bernier issued a statement in reaction to Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's decision to impose a state of emergency and suspend the constitution to pre-empt a Supreme Court decision on whether to overturn his recent election victory amid escalating Islamist militant violence.

Bernier joined other world leaders and human rights groups who condemned Musharraf's move.

We are deeply concerned about this development and urge the government of Pakistan to cancel the state of emergency and the new provisional constitutional order immediately," said Bernier's statement, which did not name Musharraf personally."These measures undermine democratic development, judicial independence and the possibility of free and fair elections to which the people of Pakistan are entitled."

In Canada, Pakistani-Canadians had mixed reaction to the turn of events and their impact on relatives and friends in their homeland, where Musharraf, the country's military ruler, defended his decision by saying terrorism and extremism had reached their limit.

Pakistan's system of government had become paralyzed by judicial interference and he had imposed emergency rule to complete a transition to civilian-led democratic rule, Musharraf said in a pre-recorded television address.

"Pakistan has reached a dangerous point, and is undergoing an internal crisis," he said. "I fear that if timely action is not taken, then God forbid there is a threat to Pakistan's sovereignty. I cannot allow this country to commit suicide."

Musharraf appealed to the international community to understand the "criticality" of the situation and accept Pakistan needed time to reach the level of democracy enjoyed in the West.

"Please do not expect or demand your level of democracy which you learned over a number of centuries. Please give us time," he said.

He was awaiting a Supreme Court ruling on whether was eligible to run for re-election last month while still army chief.

In Ottawa, the president of the local Pakistan Canada Association, Javed Somra, criticized Musharraf's move.

"This is a power-grab by him so that he can stay there for as long as he can," said Somra, referring to Pakistan's upcoming Supreme Court ruling. "He came in through a coup and he is still clinging to it."

Somra said one of his big concerns is how the state of emergency will affect communications in the country.

"From what I understand, he suspended some telephone links to the outside world and also some of the news channels were blocked."

In Quebec, Pakistani-Canadian Bashir Hussain said there was strong support in the local community for Musharraf's declaration of a state of emergency.

"We were expecting this," said Hussain, a Montreal-area resident and executive director of the Alliance of South Asian Communities. "Musharraf was moving slowly toward democracy and the Supreme Court chief justice was after him."

The head of the Pakistan-Canada Association in Vancouver, Farrukh Alam, said the situation is upsetting and "I just hope it doesn't lead to martial law."

Alam, a Vancouver resident, described the latest events as the sad outcome of a conflict between two men - Musharraf and the chief justice of the Supreme Court, whom Alam said should be reinstated because his firing "is a real backwards step for the country."

Alam estimated there are about 300,000 people of Pakistani origin living in Canada.

Athar Zaida, president of the Pakistan-Canada Association of Calgary, said the sensible solution is for Musharraf to lift the state of emergency and keep his word to have fair and free elections.

"Democracy is the only way of solving the problem rather than imposing one's own will," said Zaida.

Bernier, in his statement, also called on the government to respect the rule of law.

"We urge all sides to refrain from violence and respect human rights," said Bernier, who was not available for interview. "We also expect the government of Pakistan to continue in its efforts to improve regional security."
 
I think pakistan should force america to include them in making of JSF F-35. Instead of fearing they might loose F-16s. To be honest present is about 5th generation fighter's. Pakistan way behind and they have to make efforts to make 5th generation aircraft with Usa or china. India already started working on PAK-FA with russia :smile:
 
I think pakistan should force america to include them in making of JSF F-35. Instead of fearing they might loose F-16s. To be honest present is about 5th generation fighter's. Pakistan way behind and they have to make efforts to make 5th generation aircraft with Usa or china. India already started working on PAK-FA with russia :smile:

So far India hasnt managed to make a 3rd generation fighter LCA. So Pak can afford to wait. It'll get its 5th generation fighter when it needs it from China eventually.
 
There are far many benefits to go for Rafale. You get the top-notch aircraft, which could have become a strong back bone of the air force for a long term!

I realize that there are benefits for the F-16s too, but we cannot rely on the U.S. unless we want to have the "Yes sir" policy.

I also salute to the decision makers in the PAF who only decided to go for 18 new F-16s initially, but i still believe that it could be ditched, and better cost effective solution would have been to acquire old F-16s with MLU kits -- if we really wanted the F-16s because of logistics & procurement benefits.

No doubt that Rafale would ve been the much better choice for PAF but webmaster ure salute to PAF decision makers is far fetched....PAF never decided on ots will to cut down the number of F-16s.....It was the Earthquake which forced muchy and co to reduce the number of F-16s....otherwise obsession of our PAF duded with USA will vever go no matter how much sanctions they ae put under....i have worked with them and i know this for sure....excluding few
TC
 
otherwise obsession of our PAF duded with USA will vever go no matter how much sanctions they ae put under....i have worked with them and i know this for sure....excluding few

Unless you can verify it. Dont claim it please.

Its just my certain opinion that Rafale could have been the better choice, but PAF knows it better. Both have their significant advantages, and the earth quake wasn't necessarily the case as provided by "some" news media.
 
American equipment almost, always gives a better value for money spent and technology acquired than any other supplier. This is something that Pakistan Air Force and Army will attest to any time of the day.

If we were not prone to sanctions by the US, Pakistani Armed Forces would be even more committed to US equipment. The options from the French etc. are all considered as alternate when major weapon systems especially for the Air Force come into play.
 
Salam,


According to me we are lacking the equipment in the field of Air war, because India now have 126 or more Mig 29 and Su's, and we have only 36 F-16, secondly india going to induct 126 more advance Fighter's.


Thirdly india's also goint to induct Mig 29 MKI's for its Navy, so it threat of Orion's and F-16's is over for me.


Thanks,
Danish saleem
 
Salam,


According to me we are lacking the equipment in the field of Air war, because India now have 126 or more Mig 29 and Su's, and we have only 36 F-16, secondly india going to induct 126 more advance Fighter's.


Thirdly india's also goint to induct Mig 29 MKI's for its Navy, so it threat of Orion's and F-16's is over for me.


Thanks,
Danish saleem
Sigh...........there are going to be more than 36 f-16's.....there are also going to be 24 block 50's. So thats 60 aircraft. There is also the option of getting more. ( roughly 30-40 newer aircraft of a similar type or better)

40 ~ J-10's
And of course 250 JF-17's

Now lets do the maths shall we..............36+24+40+30+250= 380 new aircraft!!!!!!!

SO luckily it is not according to you...:lol:
 
American equipment almost, always gives a better value for money spent and technology acquired than any other supplier. This is something that Pakistan Air Force and Army will attest to any time of the day.

If we were not prone to sanctions by the US, Pakistani Armed Forces would be even more committed to US equipment. The options from the French etc. are all considered as alternate when major weapon systems especially for the Air Force come into play.

Very true.
 
Americans do have the best technology, but they don't give it Pakistan. The only reason they handed over the F-16 Blk 52(+?) to Pakistan was because Pakistan was getting J-10. Otherwise they wouldnt have given the technology to Pakistan. So value for money for the not so advanced technology from the Americans I don't think is so good. The Chinese J-10 is better value for money than the F-16 Block c/d. Block 52+ or J-10? I'd probably still go for the J-10 since it'll have upgrades and is cheaper. Does the F-16 even have TVC, as it seems the J-10 might? Personally, I'd start buying J-10 instead of F-16, unless it's Block 52+ or Block 60. PAF really doesnt need the less advanced models anymore afaik.
 
Americans do have the best technology, but they don't give it Pakistan. The only reason they handed over the F-16 Blk 52(+?) to Pakistan was because Pakistan was getting J-10. Otherwise they wouldnt have given the technology to Pakistan. So value for money for the not so advanced technology from the Americans I don't think is so good. The Chinese J-10 is better value for money than the F-16 Block c/d. Block 52+ or J-10? I'd probably still go for the J-10 since it'll have upgrades and is cheaper. Does the F-16 even have TVC, as it seems the J-10 might? Personally, I'd start buying J-10 instead of F-16, unless it's Block 52+ or Block 60. PAF really doesnt need the less advanced models anymore afaik.

Well The current block of J-10 is rumoured to be at the F-16 blk 15 level so to opt for that platform before it matures would not be a great idea. (Going for a "less advanced model as you say)

There are 60 blk50/52 aircraft. The blk 52 is the aircraft used by the USAF so it is pretty decent....Also AWACS aircraft was sold. (Hawkeye 2000) and the AiM 120 and other ancillaries. So it was VERY good value for money.

Things like TVC are nice but can be negated by HMS so it's again not a good idea to be sucked in by hype.
 
Americans do have the best technology, but they don't give it Pakistan. The only reason they handed over the F-16 Blk 52(+?) to Pakistan was because Pakistan was getting J-10. Otherwise they wouldnt have given the technology to Pakistan. So value for money for the not so advanced technology from the Americans I don't think is so good. The Chinese J-10 is better value for money than the F-16 Block c/d. Block 52+ or J-10? I'd probably still go for the J-10 since it'll have upgrades and is cheaper. Does the F-16 even have TVC, as it seems the J-10 might? Personally, I'd start buying J-10 instead of F-16, unless it's Block 52+ or Block 60. PAF really doesnt need the less advanced models anymore afaik.

It will be a while before the avionics and the weapons on the J-10 become comparable to the blk 52.

I do not think the J-10 had anything to do with the blk 52 purchase. US wanted to address Pakistan's requirement around the F-16s. This was done without having any sort of connection to the J-10. Pakistan is still going for J-10 and that has not caused the US to suggest to Pakistan to buy more F-16s or anything else like that.
 
Have the avionics of the J-10 been released? The early block 15 F-16 radars don't appear very good (but they can be retrofitted, and have been it seems with an updated radar). Take the J-10 in air2air and BVR combat vs an F-16 You'd agree J-10 beats the F-16 (perhaps not Block 60) for ferry distance, perhaps combat radius?

In air2air, TVC becomes pretty important. HMS (Helmet mounted site?), only gives the pilot reaction advantages, right? But HMS, if I'm correct in thinking, doesn't affect the manoeverability of the craft. Anyhow, out of the two, which would you go for being the most manoeuverable? As a later upgrade HMS might be placed onto the J-10 pilots, for example.

For BVR, the SD-10 is pretty good, the only disadvantage I could think of would be the radar. But what is J-10's radar? PAF are fitting Western avionics to its J-10 or are they using one developed with China for their version?
 
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