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F-16s & Orions used as a threat

Well the point is what is J-10 like today and not what PAF can do to it in a few years by integrating western technology into it. PAF had a gap which needed plugging in. F-16 blk 52 was a proven system in service with many of the leading NATO and other AirForces plus we had a lot of experience (including combat) on the type.

So PAF could have waited for another 2-3 years to figure out what they wanted on the J-10 and what they could get or place an order for blk52 which at least currently is better than the J-10.

Payload alone is not everything. J-10 definitely is on the PAF radar, however it has to be developed to PAF specs. That will take time so we went with the blk52 and decided to upgrade the blk 15s to the same avionics standards as blk 52. An awesome deal any which way you look at it. In the end of the MLU process, PAF will have the most capable MLU'd F-16s in the world.
 
Have the avionics of the J-10 been released? The early block 15 F-16 radars don't appear very good. Take the J-10 in air2air and BVR combat vs an F-16 You'd agree J-10 beats the F-16 (perhaps not Block 60) for ferry distance, perhaps combat radius?

In air2air, TVC becomes pretty important. HMS (Helmet mounted site?), only gives the pilot reaction advantages? But HMS, if I'm correct in thinking, doesn't affect the manoeverability of the craft? Anyhow, out of the two, which would you go for being the most manoeuverable?

For BVR, the SD-10 is pretty good, the only disadvantage I could think of would be the radar. But what is J-10's radar? PAF are fitting Western avionics to its J-10 or are they using one developed with China for their version?

I would disagree with the idea in it's current blk the J-10 would beat the F-16. There is a lot of paranoia about China getting access to BLK 52 tech via PAK.
The F-16's would be getting the APG-68 which is a lot better than the APG-66 of earlier models.(The Israeli's use it in their aircraft.As well as the U.S.) The J-10 in it's current form is not at the level of the blk 50/52. If it is integrated with western tech it would improve but such integration takes time.

HMS allows the pilot to get locks in high off the boresight situations. This allows the pilot to get a lock without having TVC in the aircraft. Thereby negating any advantage gained by TVC.

The SD-10 is a good missile but the AIM-120 is better for a large number of reasons.
The current blk of J-10's would using Chinese avionics so it would require a bit of development before it is a mature platform.
 
One thing that every one is forgetting is that although Pakistan has signed F-16 deal unless these are delivered to Pakistan past history tells that the deal is subject to change at any moment and is linked to US policy towards Pakistan and its interests. Incase situation in Pakistan changes or its importance to US diminishes the deal could be in trouble.
So PAF shall continue to search for an alternate fighter and at the moment the best available choice it seems is J-10.
 
One thing that every one is forgetting is that although Pakistan has signed F-16 deal unless these are delivered to Pakistan past history tells that the deal is subject to change at any moment and is linked to US policy towards Pakistan and its interests. Incase situation in Pakistan changes or its importance to US diminishes the deal could be in trouble.
So PAF shall continue to search for an alternate fighter and at the moment the best available choice it seems is J-10.

The whole sanctions thing is overplayed and frankly it would now take a lot for them to be applied (nuclear tests for example)And frankly the U.S. needs PAk witht he war over the border.
The whole F-16 deal will be completed by 2009 and Pak I am sure would have allowed for any potential sanctions within the life span of the aircraft.
Sometimes I fear some of you guys tend to be a bit myopic when it comes to these things. Over-reliance on one source for such things is a road to disaster. And as has been stated the J-10 is not a mature aircraft as of yet and it's use alone would put the PAF at a disadvantage. So i suggest the "dump the F-16" aficionado's think about the bigger picture occasionally.
 
One thing that every one is forgetting is that although Pakistan has signed F-16 deal unless these are delivered to Pakistan past history tells that the deal is subject to change at any moment and is linked to US policy towards Pakistan and its interests. Incase situation in Pakistan changes or its importance to US diminishes the deal could be in trouble.
So PAF shall continue to search for an alternate fighter and at the moment the best available choice it seems is J-10.

any congressional sanctions are now locked in a presidential waiver. as long as Bush supports Mush (which he will), there should be no sanctions in 2008 only the threat!
after the Jan-08 elections things in Pakistan should come back to normalcy and it will be business as usual.
 
The whole sanctions thing is overplayed and frankly it would now take a lot for them to be applied (nuclear tests for example)And frankly the U.S. needs PAk witht he war over the border.
The whole F-16 deal will be completed by 2009 and Pak I am sure would have allowed for any potential sanctions within the life span of the aircraft.
Sometimes I fear some of you guys tend to be a bit myopic when it comes to these things. Over-reliance on one source for such things is a road to disaster. And as has been stated the J-10 is not a mature aircraft as of yet and it's use alone would put the PAF at a disadvantage. So i suggest the "dump the F-16" aficionado's think about the bigger picture occasionally.

I don't think it's a question of the bigger picture in this case. The bigger picture is that the US is politically an ally to Pakistan, but one of necessity, China is politically an all-weather ally. It's more or less sure that Pakistan has access to some of the latest military technology that China has, whilst the US will only provide what Pakistan can already get elsewhere. As China catches up technologically, it would be better for Pakistan to be using its platforms, so they can make the switch more easily.

The only negative about the J-10 from what people have told me comes down to its radar. But there's good evidence that China is producing at least very advanced radar components for a long time. By now, they might have AESA. The microwave MCM (T/R modules) that fit into te AESA radar (thousands of them) have been being produced at Nedi (Nanjing) for nearly a decade now.

Welcome to IEEE Xplore 2.0: GaAs microwave devices and MMICs development in NEDI

To not be able to slot these into an AESA radar would be a bit pessimistic. They're probably just keeping it quiet.

I also have no doubts the J-10 is better than an F-16 Block 15. Much better. Assuming J-10 comes to Pakistan with an AESA radar, SD-10 BVR, TVC on the WS10A engine (or they'll upgrade it by 2010 or so), why opt for a smaller, less manoeverable plane without AESA? Even so, is the US going to upgrade any F-16 with AESA radars for Pakistan in the next decade..I doubt they would since they don't want China getting their hands on their AESA tech, but then who knows.

PS I do agree with the deal of PAF to buy some F-16 and some J-10 for now simply because F-16 is tried and tested. But J-10 I still think is better value for money more so with the upgrades that would be given to it.
 
I am sure about one thing USA is not a reliable friend/partner. At most awkward of times he will ditch Pakistan.
As far as bigger picture is concerned elections are around the corner in USA too and a lot depends on which party's candidate wins the election.
As far as J-10 buy for PAF it will take anther year or more for first one to arrive and no deal has been signed so far. Therefore by the time PAF gets some they shall be pretty matured and tailored to PAF requirements.
 
F-16s are basically acquired because we already have them. It simply sounds good to acquire more. Everything is already setup.. which is a big thing for any air force.

As far as J-10 is concerned. PAF is also acquiring them. 36 versus 18 F-16s are still more.. and they probably acquire more as it proves itself.
 
Salaam

I hope the PAF concentrates alot more on the JF-17/FC_20 from China....need to keep up with the pace of technology. I hope they are able to produce the armaments (all types) for these aircrafts....the PAF needs to be self-sufficient if it to function effectively. Arms embargoes usually considerably reduces the effectiveness of training (i.e. sorties etc) and reduces the ability to sustain air activity.

PAF needs to have it's own capability to build AAM of alltypes and also air launched missiles/bombs etc.
 
coming back to the thread subject.
the difference between 1989 sanctions and 2007 threats of sanctions is like day and night. in 89 we had nothing to offer to the US. in 2007, the need us to be on the wall. they know we r the pivotal country which can make or break the WoT (at a cost ofcourse). when Bush goes in 08 and H.Clinton is elected president (guys pray that she wins the US elections) you will see a continued strong support for Pakistan for the 1st time from a democratic president. mark my words.
 
Negroponte will talk bluntly to Musharraf about emergency

Negroponte will talk bluntly to Musharraf about emergency




By Tariq Butt

ISLAMABAD: The US pressure on General Pervez Musharraf to scrap the state of emergency will reach its climax when Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte holds candid talks with the president this week, knowledgeable officials says.

Foreign Office spokesman M Sadiq, however, told The News, "We are not aware of Negroponte's agenda of talks. But we have been rejecting unreasonable comments and remarks made by foreign countries on Pakistan's internal affairs."

He said Pakistan had been interacting with different countries to make them understand the ground realities and the gravity of the situation that evoked the proclamation of emergency.

However, other officials feel that the number two man in the US State Department after Dr Condoleezza Rice is being specially dispatched by the Bush Administration to do a “face-to-face plain talking" with the top Pakistani leader for lifting the emergency before the January parliamentary elections.

One of them told this correspondent that the United States was uneasy over the "rupture of understanding for future power-sharing" between Musharraf and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto and this would be a major topic that Negroponte would discuss with the president.

The official said the Americans wanted Musharraf to give Ms Bhutto such a "level-playing field" in which she could win the next polls. "The president would assure Negroponte once again that he would have no hesitation in working with Ms Bhutto if she is successful in the elections."

After initially describing as positive Musharraf's two announcements – the first to hold the general elections by February 15 and then to arrange them in the first week of January after the imposition of emergency – Washington started coming down harsh on the president to compel him to cancel the emergency.

The official pointed out that Musharraf has consistently withstood foreign pressure particularly emanating from America and Europe. "But I think the president may give a date to Negroponte to dispense with the emergency with a view to satisfy him," he said.

However, the official said it was unlikely that Musharraf would oblige the United States or any other foreign country by promptly lifting the emergency. "The whole scheme of the president that was behind the Nov 3 action will collapse, and there will be chaos in the official camp," he said.

He added that in closed-door meetings, Musharraf has repeated that the state of emergency would not be revoked unless the intended objectives were achieved. "He had not given a date even to some senior government leaders in his pre-news conference consultations with them on Sunday."

This is the first time in the recent crisis starting on Nov 3 that a senior American diplomat is flying into Pakistan to talk directly about the situation though President Bush and Condi Rice had held telephonic dialogue with Musharraf.

But the administration officials have been saying that the US ambassador to Islamabad and other American diplomats were doing the main talking with top authorities in Pakistan.

The official said that he thought that on the basis of Negroponte's report, Washington would chalk out its new policy towards Musharraf. Pressure on Musharraf will continue as long as he resists accepting the demands.

A slight change is already visible in the US use of phrases. While in the past, the US has been referring to Musharraf when speaking about Pakistan, now it has started talking about the Pakistani people instead of the president.

During his ambassadorial assignments in Latin America for years, Negroponte, who had also served as US ambassador to the United Nations, had earned "fame" for destabilizing governments there. After taking up the present job, he has been Washington's point man on Pakistan and has frequently visited the country when it was hit by one grave crisis after another.
 
so AN you are equating us to latin american countries?
 
He can talk bluntly and will receive blunt answers because there isn't really any other solution around. Musharraf is already talking business after declaring he will take off uniform by the end of November. The irritant is around the declaration of Emergency and whether it can be around come the election time.

In my opinion, these are workable issues. PA is already taking on the militants in the Swat and Tribal areas. This can only be good news for ISAF/US.

Overall not a whole lot of griping can be done by Mr. Negroponte.
 
He can talk bluntly and will receive blunt answers because there isn't really any other solution around. Musharraf is already talking business after declaring he will take off uniform by the end of November. The irritant is around the declaration of Emergency and whether it can be around come the election time.

In my opinion, these are workable issues. PA is already taking on the militants in the Swat and Tribal areas. This can only be good news for ISAF/US.

Overall not a whole lot of griping can be done by Mr. Negroponte.


i agree with your assumption!
 
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