Erdoan: Turkey considers Shanghai organization an alternative to EU

[tyrant]

Changing allies is fine but the big question is who is a better ally? US-EU or Russia-China?
The answer is not easy and is more related to loyalty and trust than democracy.

 

[BronzePlaque]

What energy? Turkey is much closer to energy sources. Our job is to dominate the Middle East and establish ties with central Asian Turkic countries. Over time it'll allow us to spread our influence through Causcaus to Asia.

What do you mean by "what energy?" ? Turkey`s biggest problem is lack of energy and being close to these sources is irrelevant..In time, internal demand for energy will increase and it will be a bigger problem..Unless we manage to secure free energy exploiting zones within energy rich friendly countries, this issue will keep being "Achilles Toe" of Turkey and i dont see we can achieve that goal by being rivals to China and Russia in the region( both in middle east and central asia) and what you are suggesting is really good to read and stroking our ego and all but its a no go way..at least at present..Thats why SCO is important..We need cooperation with these countries, rivalry has a massive potential to backfire

 

[kalu_miah]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...-drawn-into-japans-dispute-6.html#post3842698

With reference to my above post, I would like to state that Turkey and Russia both realize that the center of gravity of the world is moving eastwards towards Asia. I think Turkey or Russia have no future with EU, even though there will not be an Asian Union for a long time to come. But that does not mean that there will not be moves in that direction. These moves are:

ASEAN -> ASEAN+2 -> ASEAN+
GCC -> GCC+ (all Arab states)
Former soviet states -> Eurasian Union
Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan becoming part of SCO (I think they are already observer states)

Imagine a world if Pakistan refused to assist the US in Afghanistan after Soviet invasion there in 1979? I think these last 3 decades were a diversion. Iran is already in the Asian camp, all that is needed now is to bring Turkey, GCC, Pakistan and Afghanistan to the Asian camp and out of US sphere of influence.

For this to happen GCC must be integrated and turned into a GCC+, only then can they become self sufficient and kick US bases out. This is what the Iranians do not understand, instead it looks like they are shooting themselves in their feet.

My own 2 cents.

 

[LegionnairE]

What do you mean by "what energy?" ? Turkey`s biggest problem is lack of energy and being close to these sources is irrelevant..In time, internal demand for energy will increase and it will be a bigger problem..Unless we manage to secure free energy exploiting zones within energy rich friendly countries, this issue will keep being "Achilles Toe" of Turkey and i dont see we can achieve that goal by being rivals to China and Russia in the region( both in middle east and central asia) and what you are suggesting is really good to read and stroking our ego and all but its a no go way..at least at present..Thats why SCO is important..We need cooperation with these countries, rivalry has a massive potential to backfire

We have great potential for renewable energy resources, we have Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan who can sell us their natural gas, we have highly unstable petrol-rich neighbors whom we can exploit. I shouldn't need to name them one by one. Are you saying sons of Ottomans don't know how to pursue their imperial interests?

China would give his left nut to have the opportunities Turkey has, you think Turkey needs engergy? China needs more. Which is why it's going after African countries.

 

[S10]

Meh, SCO should not accept a NATO member into its ranks. China alone has greater economic power than rest of the SCO put together. I don't think Turkey can bring anything new to the table.

 

[oct605032048]

Turkey may want to be the leader of all Turkish speaking Central Asia countries. Yet it is just too weak to play that role.

In the past Turkey can't protect itself from the North (the Tsar), nor from the west (from Napoleon to WWI), nor from the North (Soviet). Even today Turkey enjoyed the role of US' little brother and watching dog in the Mid-east (after Isreal).

Turkey's GDP per capita is higher than China's (for now) but it still need China's help to launch its satellite. Turkey may block the way of Varyag for couples of weeks but China will have aircraft carrier anyway while the Mediterranean and the Black Sea is the whole world for the Turkish Navy.

It is true that China is facing some unfriendly forces such as Japan and the Philipines. But what about Turkey? How many wars did you fight (and lost) against Russian and Greek? China is too big for any of its neighbor to say no with while EU is too big for Turkey to give up hope (even after got denied a hundred time).

Havisultan I agreed with everything besides your last paragraph. China will never be a superpower. It simple can't because of demographics, economics and geopolitics. I also don't agree China being a superpower is a good thing for Muslims and other non-Muslims in the area. I don't want to go in particulars but we won't see China as a superpower any way. I rather see a Turkic Japanese Russian middle-eastern Alliance.

 

[S10]

I already explained this. But for some reason you can't put your national pride on the side. You say China's economy is one the biggest, this is not important. You have to look at indiviual population wealth. You can have the biggest economy but if you have billion of population and divide the wealth, not much remains, does it? That is why poverty is so high in China. But if you want to dicsuss this, I recommend we continue in the thread, since it is off-topic here.

It's the household with the largest total wealth that makes the difference. If going by capita was the measure of power, then Qatar and Luxembourg would be the most powerful countries in the world. Going by your measure, United States would be far behind in terms of power ranking. So yes, it's the size that matters. We are the second largest economy in the world, and we will be the biggest in about 10 to 15 years.

Secondly, you say we shouldn't join SCO because of China. Why not? China is not the only country in the organization, besides that we can kick out China and step out the organization any time we want. I'm not interested in cooperation with China any way. It is much more interesting to cooperate with Russia, Turkic states and other Asian countries who are in the organization.

We founded the SCO along with Russia, both having veto votes. You can't gain entry without our approval, and to kick us out of an organization we started is just plain funny.

 

[T-123456]

It's the household with the largest total wealth that makes the difference. If going by capita was the measure of power, then Qatar and Luxembourg would be the most powerful countries in the world. Going by your measure, United States would be far behind in terms of power ranking. So yes, it's the size that matters. We are the second largest economy in the world, and we will be the biggest in about 10 to 15 years.


We founded the SCO along with Russia, both having veto votes. You can't gain entry without our approval, and to kick us out of an organization we started is just plain funny.

Nobody is kicking nobody out,the future for Turkey is east and west,why not work with both sides?
We should not join any organisaition but do bussiness with all,thats how we became what we are now so lets just keep it that way.
Instead of no problem policy we could use the new(my input)term;Bussiness with all policy

 

[LegionnairE]

China will have aircraft carrier anyway while the Mediterranean and the Black Sea is the whole world for the Turkish Navy.

Turkish navy is sending a task group to Indian ocean each year. Go, do your homework.
Turkish Navy Task Force Departed For Indian Ocean «

It is true that China is facing some unfriendly forces such as Japan and the Philipines. But what about Turkey? How many wars did you fight (and lost) against Russian and Greek? China is too big for any of its neighbor to say no with while EU is too big for Turkey to give up hope (even after got denied a hundred time).

We fight, there are two possible outcomes win or lose, since this is not a history-related thread I'll pass. The fact is, Turkey is well armed and well prepared, enough to fight with three of it's neighbors simultaneously and defeat. On the other hand Japanese Navy can kick your arse at anytime, India and Russia are also well armed and both has more combat experience than the PLA.

In the end we find ourselves in a comfortable position to expand our area of influence.

 

[Type 052D]

Turkish navy is sending a task group to Indian ocean each year. Go, do your homework.
Turkish Navy Task Force Departed For Indian Ocean «

We fight, there are two possible outcomes win or lose, since this is not a history-related thread I'll pass. The fact is, Turkey is well armed and well prepared, enough to fight with three of it's neighbors simultaneously and defeat. On the other hand Japanese Navy can kick your arse at anytime, India and Russia are also well armed and both has more combat experience than the PLA.

In the end we find ourselves in a comfortable position to expand our area of influence.

JMSDF stronger than China's navy? Nice joke! Our DF-21D will sent their Ageis DDGs like Kongo & Atago class ships down the ocean bed. Our new J-16 Double seat MR Fighter will be superior than the JASDF F-15J fighters.

 

[kalu_miah]

Turkey is not a comparable power to China and it will never become one IMO. The difference in population size is 18:1 and economy size is 10:1.

Eventually everyone has to take sides, fence sitting for too long will hurt national interest of Turkey.

It is true that Turkey is in NATO and GCC is allied with NATO at this point in time, but that will change in the next few decades, because NATO is slowly and surely loosing predominance while SCO will become bigger and wealthier and eventually may be replaced by an Asian NATO like alliance, which will include countries like Japan, both Korea and ASEAN as well as most other Asian countries. Japanese and Koreans will switch sides at the right time.

EU may retain its influence somewhat in Africa, the America's and Oceania, but an Asian consolidation and integration will inevitably mean loss of EU and US influence in Asian land mass, which I believe will be good for all Asians.

 

[LegionnairE]

JMSDF stronger than China's navy? Nice joke! Our DF-21D will sent their Ageis DDGs like Kongo & Atago class ships down the ocean bed. Our new J-16 Double seat MR Fighter will be superior than the JASDF F-15J fighters.

The fact is, yours is just a coastal navy which i find ironic ...and Japanese navy is a real blue sea navy.

Turkey is not a comparable power to China and it will never become one IMO. The difference in population size is 18:1 and economy size is 10:1

True that, but there's a potential out there. Near 300 million Turkic peoples waiting to be united. We can yet become a powerful player in Asia.

 

[Wright]

Turkey is not a comparable power to China and it will never become one IMO. The difference in population size is 18:1 and economy size is 10:1.

Eventually everyone has to take sides, fence sitting for too long will hurt national interest of Turkey.

It is true that Turkey is in NATO and GCC is allied with NATO at this point in time, but that will change in the next few decades, because NATO is slowly and surely loosing predominance while SCO will become bigger and wealthier and eventually may be replaced by an Asian NATO like alliance, which will include countries like Japan, both Korea and ASEAN as well as most other Asian countries. Japanese and Koreans will switch sides at the right time.

EU may retain its influence somewhat in Africa, the America's and Oceania, but an Asian consolidation and integration will inevitably mean loss of EU and US influence in Asian land mass, which I believe will be good for all Asians.

Parts of Asia are close to Europe, parts close to East Asia and Africa, . Racial/religious differences in such a vast continent have always caused wars and diagreements. I want you to point out a time period in history when Asia was united.

Heck, point out a time when the East Asians were ever united.

The fact is, yours is just a coastal navy which i find ironic ...and Japanese navy is a real blue sea navy.

True that, but there's a potential out there. Near 300 million Turkic peoples waiting to be united. We can yet become a powerful player in Asia.

Turks have produced larger and more influential empires than the Chinese ones.

 

[kalu_miah]

True that, but there's a potential out there. Near 300 million Turkic peoples waiting to be united. We can yet become a powerful player in Asia.

Yes there is potential, if Turkey decides to join Asia and leave EU behind.

 

[kalu_miah]

Parts of Asia are close to Europe, parts close to East Asia and Africa, . Racial/religious differences in such a vast continent have always caused wars and diagreements. I want you to point out a time period in history when Asia was united.

Heck, point out a time when the East Asians were ever united.

Pax Mongolica:
Pax Mongolica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is coming back with a Chinese led Asian alliance. Resistance is futile.