End of Pakistani Interest in the T-129?

[xxxKULxxx]

I hope they wouldn't prefer that Mi series....

I hope so... Not only for us but also for Pakistan.... T-129 is not only T-129 but also various missiles, radar on it, helmet etc... Also without any doubt Türkiye is reliable country for the future needs of T-129 and it's missiles, upgrades etc...

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

You don't needs to state the obvious......we already knows the history.......!
Turks or any other Muslim country in the world couldn't sustain this brotherhood mantra over their core interests like Pakistan or its people always withstands throughout history.
We help Ottomons, when we ourselves in subjugation and in great need.
We help Communist blocked Arabs states i.e. Egypt, Syria in thier wars with Israel when we ourselves member of Western block SEATO & SENTO.
We extend help to Azeris against the ire of Russians.
We always help Afghans against the formidable "Superpowers".
We help Kashmiris against the much larger and strong enemy.
We help Bosnians, when its none of our business, nor in our geographical proximity.

We know all this is one way traffic always but we we will continue to do it as per our idealogy. No turk, arab or persian can anytime match the resolve and courage like Pakistanis

It seems my point is not taken, read it again please.

 

[IND151]

T-129 was designed to fight terrorism. Thats why it was developed and acquired in the first place.
__________________________________________

Some one give me a good reason why hinds are better than t-129 at COIN.

MI-25, though not as sophisticated as T-129, can act both as troop carrier and gunship.

T-129

General characteristics

• Crew: 2: pilot and co-pilot/gunner
• Length: 13.45 m (44 ft 1 in)
• Rotor diameter: 11.90 m (39 ft 0 in)
• Height: 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in)
• Disc area: 111.22 m² (1,197.25 ft²)
• Max. takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each
• Rotor systems: 5 blades on main rotor

Performance

• Maximum speed: 278 km/h (151 knots, 174 mph)
• Cruise speed: 269 km/h (145 knots, 167 mph)
• Range: 561 km (303 nmi, 341 mi)
• Ferry range: 1,000 km (540 nmi, 620 mi)
• Service ceiling: 6,096 m (20,000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 14.0 m/s (2,750 ft/min)

Mi-24

General characteristics

• Crew: 2–3: pilot, weapons system officer and technician (optional)
• Capacity: 8 troops or 4 stretchers or 2400 kg (5,291 lb) cargo on an external sling
• Length: 17.5 m (57 ft 4 in)
• Rotor diameter: 17.3 m (56 ft 7 in)
• Wingspan: 6.5 m (21 ft 3 in)
• Height: 6.5 m (21 ft 3 in)
• Disc area: 235 m² (2,530 ft²)
• Empty weight: 8,500 kg (18,740 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 12,000 kg (26,500 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Isotov TV3-117 turbines, 1,600 kW (2,200 hp) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 335 km/h (208 mph)
• Range: 450 km (280 miles)
• Service ceiling: 4,900 m (16076 ft)

The hind being a eavy chopper can carry larger load and weapons and has better armor.

According to Russian sources, 74 helicopters were lost, including 27 shot down by Stinger and two by Redeye during Afghganistan war. In many cases, however, the helicopters, thanks to their armour and the durability of construction, withstood significant damage.

The mujahids found anything smaller than 23 MM cannon, hardly troubled hinds.

 

[xxxKULxxx]

I think Pakistan will get russian helicopter... I started to see this news in our media too...

MI-25, though not as sophisticated as T-129, can act both as troop carrier and gunship.

T-129

General characteristics

• Crew: 2: pilot and co-pilot/gunner
• Length: 13.45 m (44 ft 1 in)
• Rotor diameter: 11.90 m (39 ft 0 in)
• Height: 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in)
• Disc area: 111.22 m² (1,197.25 ft²)
• Max. takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each
• Rotor systems: 5 blades on main rotor

Performance

• Maximum speed: 278 km/h (151 knots, 174 mph)
• Cruise speed: 269 km/h (145 knots, 167 mph)
• Range: 561 km (303 nmi, 341 mi)
• Ferry range: 1,000 km (540 nmi, 620 mi)
• Service ceiling: 6,096 m (20,000 ft)
• Rate of climb: 14.0 m/s (2,750 ft/min)

Mi-24

General characteristics

• Crew: 2–3: pilot, weapons system officer and technician (optional)
• Capacity: 8 troops or 4 stretchers or 2400 kg (5,291 lb) cargo on an external sling
• Length: 17.5 m (57 ft 4 in)
• Rotor diameter: 17.3 m (56 ft 7 in)
• Wingspan: 6.5 m (21 ft 3 in)
• Height: 6.5 m (21 ft 3 in)
• Disc area: 235 m² (2,530 ft²)
• Empty weight: 8,500 kg (18,740 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 12,000 kg (26,500 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Isotov TV3-117 turbines, 1,600 kW (2,200 hp) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 335 km/h (208 mph)
• Range: 450 km (280 miles)
• Service ceiling: 4,900 m (16076 ft)

The hind being a eavy chopper can carry larger load and weapons and has better armor.



The mujahids found anything smaller than 23 MM cannon, hardly troubled hinds.

When i compare their ranges i see that T-129 has 110 km more range... This is a huge difference... Also it means that russian heli uses fuel like crazy... So that means it's expensive to operate this russian heli... BTW maybe it will not have enough time with that range to use heavy load weapons on terrorists... You need to make so many sorties when you are fighting against small sized but so many moving targets(terrorists)... Also there is 4.000 feet service ceiling difference is another important thing... I'm sure rate of climb of T-129 is much better then russian heli... Maneuverability of T-129 is already far better... Also one of the most important side of T-129 is it works so good in very cold/hot weathers in high altitude... Also CİRİT is a special missile which is cost effective and fills the gap between guided missiles and unguided missiles... CİRİT is the best against terrorists whether against terrorists or terrorists' weak vehicles... Also as i told before russian heli is very big & unwieldy so that makes it easier target then T-129...

 

[IND151]

I think Pakistan will get russian helicopter... I started to see this news in our media too...


When i compare their ranges i see that T-129 has 110 km more range... This is a huge difference... Also it means that russian heli uses fuel like crazy... So that means it's expensive to operate this russian heli... BTW maybe it will not have enough time with that range to use heavy load weapons on terrorists... You need to make so many sorties when you are fighting against small sized but so many moving targets(terrorists)... Also there is 4.000 feet service ceiling difference is another important thing... I'm sure rate of climb of T-129 is much better then russian heli... Maneuverability of T-129 is already far better... Also one of the most important side of T-129 is it works so good in very cold/hot weathers in high altitude... Also CİRİT is a special missile which is cost effective and fills the gap between guided missiles and unguided missiles... CİRİT is the best against terrorists whether against terrorists or terrorists' weak vehicles... Also as i told before russian heli is very big & unwieldy so that makes it easier target then T-129...

You are forgetting that Mi-24 has heavier armor and far greater take-off weight.

Anything smaller than 23 MM canon hardly troubles hind.

And Mi25 has attractive price tags and comes with no strings attached.

 

[Worf]

You don't needs to state the obvious......we already knows the history.......!
Turks or any other Muslim country in the world couldn't sustain this brotherhood mantra over their core interests like Pakistan or its people always withstands throughout history.
We help Ottomons, when we ourselves in subjugation and in great need.
We help Communist blocked Arabs states i.e. Egypt, Syria in thier wars with Israel when we ourselves member of Western block SEATO & SENTO.
We extend help to Azeris against the ire of Russians.
We always help Afghans against the formidable "Superpowers".
We help Kashmiris against the much larger and strong enemy.
We help Bosnians, when its none of our business, nor in our geographical proximity.

We know all this is one way traffic always but we we will continue to do it as per our idealogy. No turk, arab or persian can anytime match the resolve and courage like Pakistanis

Why am I not surprised by this comment? You are talking as if people are retards and incompetent without Pakistani "help". This attitude is to be least expected from a Pakistani. Plus who is "we"? Because I'm pretty sure you didn't help personally to any cause.

Turks fought bravely against an empire that had enslaved and made people across the world kneel to their power. So don't give me that BS of "no turk could match..."

 

[maxpayne]

Are these Russian helis better than our current cobras?

 

[Worf]

Are these Russian helis better than our current cobras?

depends on the models the Russians are offering.

 

[slapshot]

Maybe they are better to fight terrorism for 'us' owing to the commonality between the Mi-somethings we already fly, their troop carrying capacity, possibly a lower price-tag & only Russia as a head-ache to deal with unlike the T-129 where if the Americans embargo sales of the engines to us or its parts - We're done for !

This makes sense indeed. Single copter can be used for two mission profiles. I also heard that Mi35 and Mi17 they both have same engine? If this is the case this will be another plus considering the maintenance and our experience with Mi17.

Update
Mi17 and Mi35 both use Klimov TV3-117 Engine I think this will be another plus as we already have experience maintaining Mi17. The induction should be rather easy

I hope so... Not only for us but also for Pakistan.... T-129 is not only T-129 but also various missiles, radar on it, helmet etc... Also without any doubt Türkiye is reliable country for the future needs of T-129 and it's missiles, upgrades etc...

It has parts of US origin. If I am correct it does have US engine produced under license? So technically it may have implications for us if uncle sam decides to put ban or something on us again. Anyway to me the development towards Russian Mi35 doesn't seems related to Pakistan's interest in TAI.

 

[S.Bukhari]

Why am I not surprised by this comment? You are talking as if people are retards and incompetent without Pakistani "help". This attitude is to be least expected from a Pakistani. Plus who is "we"? Because I'm pretty sure you didn't help personally to any cause.

Turks fought bravely against an empire that had enslaved and made people across the world kneel to their power. So don't give me that BS of "no turk could match..."

My dear brother you got it all wrong and you are talking about bravery no doubt they are brave but you lost all your country against that empire and what you got in the end is a mere chunk, people of Pakistan consider all Muslims as brothers and feel the pain if any one is in trouble that's what he wanted to say why we haven't accepted Israel ? Just for the Palestinian brothers .

 

[Kompromat]

Maybe Pakistan is outmaneuvering the Congress over a possible refusal to sell ATAK's engines.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

how abt posting that interview now.

if you are talking about veteran series interview then I have done part one already.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Mi 24 is a good stop-gap, with some support already present when in comes to its commonality with Mi 17. Also it would be great to test Russians and see how they get along with us.

Having both Cobras and Hinds would scatter the terrorists.

T-129 would be a replacement for Cobras. Mi 24 can have their own niche. As already pointed out there are significant differences.

I would not discount T-129 yet.

 

[Worf]

My dear brother you got it all wrong and you are talking about bravery no doubt they are brave but you lost all your country against that empire and what you got in the end is a mere chunk, people of Pakistan consider all Muslims as brothers and feel the pain if any one is in trouble that's what he wanted to say why we haven't accepted Israel ? Just for the Palestinian brothers .

First of all what he said was pretty clear. So you don't have to sugar coat it. Secondly Turks did not lose against that empire considering the fact that Turkey exists in its current form and that its people fought off numerous invasions from the British empire itself and its puppets (Greece).
Also the mere chunk you talk about is as big as Pakistan, and it is home to the Turks, contrary to the other parts of the empire; does this make it any better? No. Turkey in its current state is here because of numerous wars lost and many more won. Heck. Turks even fought Muslims from the British Raj fighting under the flag of the British empire.

And don't get me wrong, brothers and sisters living in the region of Pakistan in the time did help in some way or another, but equating that to the many hundreds of thousands of lives lost in fighting for freedom is just ridicules, selfish and self appeasing to the person saying such thing .

But hell with this diversion. The main topic is why Pakistan choose an Russian Helicopter over the T129.

 

[cabatli_53]

If you are talking about a relatively slow rotor crafts, All latest technologies such as being stealth to hunt enemies which is being applied for current jet powered aircrafts make no sense. That's why There are some other factors such as long range detection to engage the targets without risking the copter that is considered by Turkish army. If We think 73 of a heavy protected copter like mi-24 was downed in Afghanistan, It proves How right desicion Turkish Army given...

-Long range reconnaissance capability thanks to onboard radar and advanced E/O technologies, softwares
-Long range engagement with cost-effective munitions
-Advanced Electronic Warfare devices on board to counter a likely missile attack from long ranges
-High-hot performance on lighter fuselage



Protection based on Heavy armoured fuselage is not an issue on light attack helicopters. What We want is not a heavy protected tank like helicopter but high manouvrability craft which have similar missile payload multi-purpose but more manouvrability craft on air.

Those are depends on mission requirements of armed Forces. USA is the sole country which is keeping both light and heavy attack helicopters in inventory but The mission perception Turkey described depends on light attack helicopters like SuperCobra and T-129 Atak.

T-129 Atak test pilot which had flown AH-1W SuperCobra's in Turkish Army many years, describes T-129 Atak copters as impressive a Ferrari like attack helicopter in terms of performance on air and He claims Atak is one of the best attack helicopter He has ever flew in his life. It means Turkey achieved a great success to develop an attack helicopter which is going to fill own requirements.

That's why A flying tank like copters such as Mil-24 or Mil-35 can never be on par with T-129 Atak in our minds..