End of Pakistani Interest in the T-129?

[Irfan Baloch]

Some of our Turkish members doing exactly the same thing Pakistanis did in the thread about alleged missile deal between Pakistan and Azerbaijan. We are talking about millions of dollars here. They are free to chose the best for their interests, so no need to get emotional. Whatever they chose, i personally wish the best for our Pakistani friends.

in my opinion T-129 is at par with Apache. it doesnt come light with its armament and is top of the line when it comes to its avionics, its hunting killing abilities in all weathers and conditions be it day or night and we will love to use it against Indian armor and infantry. but for taliban we rather not spend this precious helicopter. all in good time though

 

[airmarshal]

If you are talking about a relatively slow rotor crafts, All latest technologies such as being stealth to hunt enemies which is being applied for current jet powered aircrafts make no sense. That's why There are some other factors such as long range detection to engage the targets without risking the copter that is considered by Turkish army. If We think 73 of a heavy protected copter like mi-24 was downed in Afghanistan, It proves How right desicion Turkish Army given...

-Long range reconnaissance capability thanks to onboard radar and advanced E/O technologies, softwares
-Long range engagement with cost-effective munitions
-Advanced Electronic Warfare devices on board to counter a likely missile attack from long ranges
-High-hot performance on lighter fuselage



Protection based on Heavy armoured fuselage is not an issue on light attack helicopters. What We want is not a heavy protected tank like helicopter but high manouvrability craft which have similar missile payload multi-purpose but more manouvrability craft on air.

Those are depends on mission requirements of armed Forces. USA is the sole country which is keeping both light and heavy attack helicopters in inventory but The mission perception Turkey described depends on light attack helicopters like SuperCobra and T-129 Atak.

T-129 Atak test pilot which had flown AH-1W SuperCobra's in Turkish Army many years, describes T-129 Atak copters as impressive a Ferrari like attack helicopter in terms of performance on air and He claims Atak is one of the best attack helicopter He has ever flew in his life. It means Turkey achieved a great success to develop an attack helicopter which is going to fill own requirements.

That's why A flying tank like copters such as Mil-24 or Mil-35 can never be on par with T-129 Atak in our minds..

Absolutely correct! But it also depends on mission requirements.

If the area is mountainous like in North of Pakistan, the helicopter might have to engage slow moving targets like militants moving in the area. For that, helicopter will not have to only engage closely but will have to stay on an area for a longer period. In some situations, the helicopter must also be capable of troop insertion. In this scenario the helicopter is exposed to ground fire and must be able to handle it.

This is where Mi-35 like aircraft comes into play. Its effective in those situations. In Afghanistan, people quote the figure of downed Mi-24s. Please also dont overlook the fact the Afghan freedom fighters were heavily assisted by Americans and they had most sophisticated shoulder launched SAM of those days.

For its looks only, if nothing else, I will suggest go buy T129

 

[-------]

Absolutely correct! But it also depends on mission requirements.

If the area is mountainous like in North of Pakistan, the helicopter might have to engage slow moving targets like militants moving in the area. For that, helicopter will not have to only engage closely but will have to stay on an area for a longer period. In some situations, the helicopter must also be capable of troop insertion. In this scenario the helicopter is exposed to ground fire and must be able to handle it.

This is where Mi-35 like aircraft comes into play. Its effective in those situations. In Afghanistan, people quote the figure of downed Mi-24s. Please also dont overlook the fact the Afghan freedom fighters were heavily assisted by Americans and they had most sophisticated shoulder launched SAM of those days.

For its looks only, if nothing else, I will suggest go buy T129

T-129 has these roles, if you are questioning ability of T-129 to perform these roles I suggest you look into older and lesser counterpart A-129, and its use with Italians against Talibs.

However I suppose Pakistan might not have the funds available to purchase new Helicopters of T-129s calibre, which would make Mi-35 purchase more plausible.

 

[[TR]AHMET]

Attack helicopters should send when targets detected as precision by other troops...

As we know one month ago Ukraine sent their Mi helicopters directly on the Russian rebels and rebels had fell down of Ukraine helicopters in a short time...

So an attack helicopter can't stay same area in a long time without any support.

So copters can be effective when it support strongly by other forces...

T-129 have high detection and surveillance capability, precision strike, high maneuver capability and higher awareness against missiles and AA. It is mean, T129 quite suitable and flexible according to mission requirements.

Mi series just like transporter helicopter, put some weapons on Mi-7 and cut little it will become a Mi-24/35

 

[cabatli_53]

Not only Stinger like MANPAD's, but also air defence gun systems can easily fall down an attack helicopters but Today's advanced EW technologies are trying to provide protection under some dangerous conditions against coming missiles. It isn't important How well armour protected she is If you can't protect it by other troops or If you drive an attack helicopter to an unknown enemy zone that would bring some headache to it. Anyway, If an attack helicopter come to a dangerous position like relying own health to onboard armours to survive/escape, It means It is time to beg Allah.

To prevent to face such difficult conditions, Attack helicopter producers are equipping their copters with milimetric wave radars and advanced 3th generation optics which is able to detect moving things on ground from long ranges. It gives pilots situation awareness enough to engage it before detected thanks to low cost-impressively effective Cirit like missiles.

 

[KingMamba]

First of all what he said was pretty clear. So you don't have to sugar coat it. Secondly Turks did not lose against that empire considering the fact that Turkey exists in its current form and that its people fought off numerous invasions from the British empire itself and its puppets (Greece).
Also the mere chunk you talk about is as big as Pakistan, and it is home to the Turks, contrary to the other parts of the empire; does this make it any better? No. Turkey in its current state is here because of numerous wars lost and many more won. Heck. Turks even fought Muslims from the British Raj fighting under the flag of the British empire.

And don't get me wrong, brothers and sisters living in the region of Pakistan in the time did help in some way or another, but equating that to the many hundreds of thousands of lives lost in fighting for freedom is just ridicules, selfish and self appeasing to the person saying such thing .

But hell with this diversion. The main topic is why Pakistan choose an Russian Helicopter over the T129.

Can you prove this assertation? Afaik Muslims refused to fight in the Middle eastern theater and many units revolted at even the mention of it.

If you are scared to the hilt, that you may lose customers because of your trade with a nation that you hold tremendous ties with in terms of culture, faith, race etc then that is very sad indeed. I expected a great deal more from a Turk, rather than someone talking about abandoning a brother due the loss of monies...

The deal for the Atak is on and will remain on. Our prime-minister and army chief presided over the negotiations for the machine and a deal should be inked very soon. This is the real world brother, not some hearsay press reports from a nation (Russia) that we frankly haven't had great ties with for the last 30 years.

If you want to cut from us, then so be it. It's not the first time we have been stabbed and it won't be the last. We were "cut" off in the past as well and went on to become a nuclear power and achieve the ultimate deterrent. We are 200 million strong, and I haven't included the expats yet, so really we only need ourselves to be strong.

I hope you will change your views, as I'm sure they don't reflect those of other Turkish bros on this forum.

Signing off Waz (lover of Turkey and its people).



Brother hundreds of Pakistanis also lost their lives when they went as volunteers to fight with the Turkish army against the allies of the first World War.

See here please.

Pakistani WW1-Turkish War of Independence Hero

Entire regiments from what is now Pakistan laid down their arms and refused to fight against the Ottomans and these were considered the "shock troops" of the British empire. British generals even banned Muslim troops from now Pakistan coming anywhere near the conflict, as they feared their loyalty was skewed. This was at the time when every other Muslim power, people etc had either stabbed the Ottomans in the back or turned their faces away.

Anyhow back to topic.

The Atak is superior in every way. I'm personally for purchasing a few for anti insurgent roles but our commitment is certainly to your gunship.

Not just that but many sent their whole fortunes to fund their war against the colonialists, reading his bs made my blood boil if anything Mustafa Kemal stabbed South Asian Muslims in the back at the end. Khair this is not the thread topic.

 

[Quwa]

Pak Army and ISI got $4.5bn US between them in the defence budget, I am sure a big acquisition is on the horizon. As it stands effective attack helicopters to supplement and ultimately replace the Cobras are a major priority.

 

[LegionnairE]

in my opinion T-129 is at par with Apache. it doesnt come light with its armament and is top of the line when it comes to its avionics, its hunting killing abilities in all weathers and conditions be it day or night and we will love to use it against Indian armor and infantry. but for taliban we rather not spend this precious helicopter. all in good time though

Quite the contrary... You should use T129 against insurgents.

It has good countermeasures, high maneuverability and a narrow body. Mi35s are like flying elephants much easier to hit with an insurgent RPG on the other hand T129 has high service ceiling, ability to fly in high & hot conditions which is imperative fighting in mountainous areas and a narrow body which makes it more difficult to hit (like AH1W Super Cobra)

it comes with a very large IR sensor and cost effective semi-guided cirit rockets... it's perfect for these kind of things

 

[MilSpec]

No Excess Defence Article AH1's? last time around pakistan got Ah1's for free.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Quite the contrary... You should use T129 against insurgents.

It has good countermeasures, high maneuverability and a narrow body. Mi35s are like flying elephants much easier to hit with an insurgent RPG on the other hand T129 has high service ceiling, ability to fly in high & hot conditions which is imperative fighting in mountainous areas and a narrow body which makes it more difficult to hit (like AH1W Super Cobra)

it comes with a very large IR sensor and cost effective semi-guided cirit rockets... it's perfect for these kind of things

firepower and transport were the reason and much cheaper and better, faster and stronger than our current fleet

 

[Hakan]

 

[T-123456]

If you want to cut from us, then so be it. It's not the first time we have been stabbed and it won't be the last. We were "cut" off in the past as well and went on to become a nuclear power and achieve the ultimate deterrent. We are 200 million strong, and I haven't included the expats yet, so really we only need ourselves to be strong.
I hope you will change your views, as I'm sure they don't reflect those of other Turkish bros on this forum.
Signing off Waz (lover of Turkey and its people).

A personal view from one person.
We cannot and will never sell out Pakistan and you know that!
You do whats best for your country,we will always be brothers.

 

[Saithan]

I don't think bragging about T129 is right, when it hasn't been flying missions. I'd like to see it in service and how succesful it is before bragging about it

 

[Irfan Baloch]

If you are scared to the hilt, that you may lose customers because of your trade with a nation that you hold tremendous ties with in terms of culture, faith, race etc then that is very sad indeed. I expected a great deal more from a Turk, rather than someone talking about abandoning a brother due the loss of monies...

Ignore him he maybe a low esteemed possible false flagger SOB

No self respecting Turk will speak like that.

You don't needs to state the obvious......we already knows the history.......!
Turks or any other Muslim country in the world couldn't sustain this brotherhood mantra over their core interests like Pakistan or its people always withstands throughout history

brotherthis is us what defines us
I wont be surprised if he a false flag Indian. but everyone has freedom of opinion

 

[raazh]

T129 is a fantastic machine and would be a great addition in Pak Forces. However I think currently Turkey has just inducted the first nine T-129 helicopters into service in May 2014 and will be trying to induct the remaining 51 units it has on order. I am not sure if they are able to or willing to take an urgent order from an export customer and what will be the delivery dates if they even take the order on priority. Setting up the maintenance and training will also take its due time; so I reckon that T-129 cannot be put in action on urgent basis. Same is the case with Chinese options where the priority is to fill in Chinese demand first.

Another major problem is that we have limited cash available at the moment and urgently need AH1 replacement or assistance. I am assuming that USA has refused to release newer AH1 on FMS grants or even on long term payments. The next best thing available is the Russian option. They might have few units available for urgent release and quick induction. Logistics wise it will also make sense since Mi17's are already being maintained. Only issue will be the price and training (assuming there is no restriction or politics left in the deal).