Eid Milad Un Nabi (S.A. W) Mubarak

[CriticalThought]

It’s on and loving it. It’s so soothing.



He tagged you to listen to that Nasheed

 

[313ghazi]

Methodical or not, it is still he said/she said.. try to understand what I am referring to in terms of a human process versus one in which we are certain of authenticity with no dispute.

If they were all scrutinized then the whole idea of sahih and zaif would not arise. It was an extensive and methodical process but was not perfect like the Quran and hence causes dispute; yet, as I mentioned before it is important in many places especially hadiath like the 40 Qudsia to provide context to the Quran.

However, tomorrow if the Hadiath are all lost; the Quran will still sustain.. but the same cannot be said for the reverse.
It is symbiotic relationship but where only the Hadiath are truly dependent upon the Quran for authentication of content.

If you "STUDY" Islam at university level there are graduate students doing 4 yrs of their life in digging history, matching hadith and following narrators...

Hadith was only "collected" by what people remember or heard...Narrators of the same story were collected for cross-reference HOWEVER, the cross-referencing was not done when the hadith were collected...A lot of it is still being done [yes there are that many "hadith" some fabricated; some from not authentic narrators]...through the years some has been thrown out...You can pick a Sahih hadith from xyz year and compare it with one from abc year (keep a 50 yr gap) you will notice the difference!

I am not saying hadith are wrong but some are hearsay...others are from memory...Some authentic narrators being Human also had dementia at the later part of their lives and this is recorded in history based on their biography...SO there are whole research areas...Hadith combing is a science now! You can even get a Masters degree by doing some dissertation of the authenticity of the hadith...But of course you need to spend full 2 yrs of research or even do a PhD and become a certified muhadith!

SOME when translated to different languages lose the essence...so each country has their own task of correcting translation and keeping updated with latest versions of the corrections...

I wouldnt go as far as to say it is TOTALLY wrong! But I will tell you this much...the problem that arose for Hazat Aisha's age at marriage had to do with poor translation! where the word ten was missing and only 9 was taken for some reason....The word 19 in Arabic (in the original Arabic Hadith is tis3at a3shara) but the translator chose or forgot the a3shara and we Hazrat Aisha being 9 at the age of marriage....

Graduates might study them for 4 years, but the likes of Imam Nawawi, Imam Ghazali, Imam Bukhari, Imam Abhu Hanifa and countless others etc they studied hadith for a lifetime, they in their wisdom found hadith to be authentic enough to codify and base the shariah and the understanding of the deen as we know it on. I am not saying that all hadith were infalliable, but there was a method for defining their authenticity and many were outright rejected as false due to this method.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told us in his final sermon he had left us our book (Quran), his example (Hadith) and his family (ahle bait) and thus completed the deen. He was not a man who said things which were not for our benefit. Allah had given him knowledge that we do not posess, if we were not meant to use his example to understand our deen, he would not have said it.

As for the comparisons between Quran and sunnah, there is no accepted hadith that contradicts the Quran. This was a basic criteria of the validity of hadith. It's an arugment that cannot be put forwards.

Finally as far as "he says, she says" is concerned, most of the Quran was transmitted orally. It was compiled into a document years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). We know in the Quran that Allah vows for it's authenticity, but we only know of that vow because a man orally transmitted that verse to scribes. We should not undermine the importance of hadith.

I am not saying you are undermining hadith, I just think for me personally the term "he says, she says" is equivalent to gossip/hearsay. I don't know if you meant it that way.

 

[Dubious]

Urdu nasheeds rarely give me the same effect

 

[313ghazi]

 

[django]

@CriticalThought @war&peace @Slav Defence @tps @Dubious

https://soundcloud.com/https%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Fsardar-hasan%2Fjo-na-hota-tera-jamal-hi-ustad-nizami

@Moonlight

 

[M. Sarmad]

I am not saying hadith are wrong but some are hearsay.....

All Hadith cannot be rejected but "Hadith Collection" has shady origins:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/islamic-history-archaeology.294333/#post-5123445

 

[The Diplomat]

That is the problem, Oscar. They believe to be liberal but they are not. And Rasool Allah (saw) was one of the most liberal person.

Unfortunately, people have misunderstood this word. People here hurt the sentiments of a person who’s religious or even if not religious but respect his religion and get away saying you are conservative mind and he’s liberal.

The world is becoming more and more far right wing these days, you see it every nation. USA and Pakistan; just recently a group of mobsters challenged the writ of the state after a verdict by CJ. What's misunderstood is that our Prophet was very accepting of people and how can a religion that was brought down to last till the end of mankind not be accepting? Times change.

I would like to point out that the two people that did the most for Islam in Pakistan, who we write "rahmatullah alaih" after their names as a sign of respect did not have a beard, nor wore "Islami huliya". How can a religion brought down to last till the end of mankind have a special uniform? We celebrate this celibration on the birth of our beloved Prophet however then these same people celebrating this event say birthdays are "haram"?

Javed Ahmad Ghamidi is a great scholar who explains these misconceptions that have rocked the Islamic world.

Anyway Happy Eid-Milad Ul Nabi (S.A.W)!

 

[Dubious]

Graduates might study them for 4 years, but the likes of Imam Nawawi, Imam Ghazali, Imam Bukhari, Imam Abhu Hanifa and countless others etc they studied hadith for a lifetime,

They studied it for a lifetime because they had to hunt them and compile them using primitive resources while students in modern world have internet ...

but the likes of Imam Nawawi, Imam Ghazali, Imam Bukhari, Imam Abhu Hanifa and countless others etc they studied hadith for a lifetime, they in their wisdom found hadith to be authentic enough to codify and base the shariah and the understanding of the deen as we know it on.

That is true. But since Islam is until Qiyamat it needs to also be understood in today's context + today's examples + plus today's knowledge/ science need to be addressed from the same limited hadith...PLUS today we can trace back history with clicks of buttons so it is faster but it still needs polishing!

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told us in his final sermon he had left us our book (Quran), his example (Hadith) and his family (ahle bait) and thus completed the deen.

Yes they are complete... Like I said some problems arose from translation....essence is lost like you wont "always" laugh at an Urdu joke told in English...it wont carry the same meaning/ feel.

He was not a man who said things which were not for our benefit. Allah had given him knowledge that we do not posess, if we were not meant to use his example to understand our deen, he would not have said it.

Yes, but if you remember even during his time some people had started spreading false/ lies...even as far as self proclaiming prophets! So if these liars spread rumors and somehow seeped into narrators would be problematic...So no harm giving hadith another combing!
HIS HADITH AND SUNNAH are perfect but what addition subtraction OTHER PEOPLE have added....THAT is not from him so attributing that to him is wrong...

As for the comparisons between Quran and sunnah, there is no accepted hadith that contradicts the Quran. This was a basic criteria of the validity of hadith. It's an arugment that cannot be put forwards.

Among the "accepted" are also fabricated...Thus a fine comb is always being brushed. Just to be safe! And as our understanding of the earth increases we understand some in different light!

Finally as far as "he says, she says" is concerned, most of the Quran was transmitted orally. It was compiled into a document years after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

It was compiled before his death coz his wife Hafsa R.A. had 1 copy and all other Quran were made from that.

We know in the Quran that Allah vows for it's authenticity, but we only know of that vow because a man orally transmitted that verse to scribes. We should not undermine the importance of hadith.

No one is...But ALLAH also didnt take it upon himself to safeguard the hadith only the QURAN.

 

[CriticalThought]

Brings back memories of Hajj. The sound of this nasheed used to emanate directly from the Royal Palace next to the Holy Mosque in Mecca around evening time

 

[Dubious]

All Hadith cannot be rejected but "Hadith Collection" has shady origins:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/islamic-history-archaeology.294333/#post-5123445

No one is saying all! Maybe a mere 1-10% maybe even less

Mind you some have already been classified as dhaif...Others are being traced to why they were said...The time and situation/ context!

 

[M. Sarmad]

No one is saying all! Maybe a mere 1-10% maybe even less

I would say most of them cannot be accepted

 

[Dubious]

Again what I am talking about doesnt apply to "all hadith" no one is saying absolute anything!

Please dont choose extreme ends of the spectrum!

If I say 1-10 hadith are questionable does it put all hadith questionable? No because each is narrated by different people and there are several different people who narrated the same incident! But there is a science to authenticate and I am thankful for that! Otherwise people would have passed hearsay words of drinking Prophet's wudhu water which he discouraged (as you had shown in the link you presented earlier)

I would say most of them cannot be accepted

I am not a Muhadith to issue such a claim

These are people who are rejecting ALL HADITH...I never said ALL are wrong! It is wrong to say so!

 

[M. Sarmad]

I am not a Muhadith to issue such a claim

No "Muhaddith"/Traditionalist would make such a claim.
Only Rationalists make such claims ....

 

[CriticalThought]

No "Muhaddith"/Traditionalist would make such a claim.
Only Rationalists make such claims ....

Muhadithin are the ultimate rationalists.

 

[Dubious]

I am not saying you are undermining hadith, I just think for me personally the term "he says, she says" is equivalent to gossip/hearsay. I don't know if you meant it that way.

It isnt gossip if there are several lines of narratives talking about the same incident or similar incidents....
It is a science you dont just look at 1 person...You have to trace back each person in the list of narration and track what kind of person each is...what the context was, why such a thing was said by the Nabi SAW....and many other clues and puzzles before saying yes this is authentic! If even 1 narrator is suspicious or a troublemaker or who cant be trusted, the hadith is automatically claimed dhaif and to what level has a whole understanding (science) and logical thinking behind it! Another hadith for the same event is then compared and its narrators have to traced. The time and situation when the Prophet said such things is researched and so on....It is not as simple as just reading a hadith and sorting it as right and wrong!

No "Muhaddith"/Traditionalist would make such a claim.
Only Rationalists make such claims ....

A Muhadith is one who has studied the subject and is entitled to make a claim HOWEVER, even after 4-10 yrs as a Muhadith he would caution from making blanket statements as any wise human does!