Egypt plans to procure additional Rafale fighter jets

[Gomig-21]

F22 is an air superiority aircraft whereas rafales are a multirole medium aircraft.

He @randomradio bangs his buck that the french (while trying to sell rafales to indians) said this plane is the best plane out there( ofcourse the french knew indians were looking for a multirole medium plane and were speaking in terms of a medium weight multirole plane) but this guy took those words and started claiming rafales to be better than F22.

Oh I know, lol. While I like randomradio and he's pretty knowledgeable about a lot of things, I can't agree with him on the Rafale's alleged superiority in ECM, low observability and whatever else he supports in favor of the Rafale vs not just the F-35, but even the F-22.

I'm even more perplexed at his views of the PAK/FA - Su-57 6th generation attributes! I think those are even more "intriguing" than his views on the Rafale.

 

[Daghalodi]

Even if French say that it does mean anything


Eh?

Yeah thats exactly the funny part. He @randomradio likes to cherry pick stuff to support his narrative but When i tell him @randomradio that your air chief said tejas is the future of tommrow means tejas is better than F22 and rafale, he @randomradio shrugs and says this is in reference with jf17 but he declines the french referring to multirole medium aircraft.

Hypocrisy or plain stupid??

@Gomig-21

 

[Gomig-21]

Yeah thats exactly the funny part. He @randomradio likes to cherry pick stuff to support his narrative but When i tell him @randomradio that your air chief said tejas is the future of tommrow means tejas is better than F22 and rafale, he @randomradio shrugs and says this is in reference with jf17 but he declines the french referring to multirole medium aircraft.

Hypocrisy or plain stupid??

@Gomig-21

Hey, we all have a certain level of nationalism and/or patriotism or whatever you'd like to call it. Some take it a bit further than others, I guess.

 

[Daghalodi]

Hey, we all have a certain level of nationalism and/or patriotism or whatever you'd like to call it. Some take it a bit further than others, I guess.

Sure!! Thats why i call him a troll!!

 

[randomradio]

Egypt's Rafales are better than the F-22 Raptor WowWoowWoowowWoooW! How exciting for us!

In terms of low observability, not yet. The F3+ doesn't have the DEDIRA advantage yet. I suppose only the F3R has this advantage.

But the Rafale has a lot of features that don't exist on the F-22.

I know the Rafale has better range in all mediums than the F-35, despite the girth of that thing. More weapon's payload if I'm not mistaken and certainly better maneuverability. Cockpit fusion has been debated to no end on all forums and are probably comparable but I would give the edge to the F-35 simply for networking and linkage as well as AI are probably more advanced and capable than what's in the Rafale.

Other than that, we're super happy with them and if the EAF could build its air force fleet based on the High/Low concept to include a workhorse in between like the F-16 in our case, it would be as many Rafales as possible at the high end, lots of MiG-35s at the low end and the F-16 in the middle since there are about 218 active ones in the EAF ATM. If with that combination they could get around 400 total aircraft, that would be fine and then get involved in one of the 5th gen procurement in only 2 or 3 squadrons from either Russia or China at some point down the line.

I don't know why but your AF have purchased only the Mig-29M, and not the main Mig-35 that is still being developed.

Hey, we all have a certain level of nationalism and/or patriotism or whatever you'd like to call it. Some take it a bit further than others, I guess.

He's just misquoting me.

Oh I know, lol. While I like randomradio and he's pretty knowledgeable about a lot of things, I can't agree with him on the Rafale's alleged superiority in ECM, low observability and whatever else he supports in favor of the Rafale vs not just the F-35, but even the F-22.

I'm even more perplexed at his views of the PAK/FA - Su-57 6th generation attributes! I think those are even more "intriguing" than his views on the Rafale.

The Rafale is pretty well balanced compared to the others.

But its lack of an IWB is a problem. For example, the F-22 has superior supersonic performance compared to Rafale and F-35 by a big margin. That's a massive advantage to have. But the Rafale can also supercruise, which is a big advantage over the F-35. But the F-35 can go supersonic with heavy weapons due to the IWBs, even if it's for a short time, which is a particularly good advantage over the Rafale. So, while the Rafale can supercruise while carrying A2A weapons and tanks, it will have to drop its heavy weapons if it wants speed.

But the Rafale has much better sensors than the F-22, and pretty much on par with the F-35. For example, the Rafale and F-22's radar have similar range performance even though Rafale's radar is half the F-22 radar's size. While the Rafale and F-35 have numerous sensors, Rafale's sensor fusion actually works.

When it comes to ECM, Rafale has full spectrum ECM, while the F-35's ECM is only from its radar. The F-22's radar is yet to be upgraded to use ECM. The Rafale is a full-fledged EW aircraft, where even pilot intervention is allowed. This feature is not available on the F-35.

As for the PAK FA, they made it so good that they can't afford it, there are more avionics than the F-22, Rafale and F-35 put together, including stuff that don't exist on any of the other aircraft. If they can't afford it, then neither can we (they are trying to shaft us more, no guarantees on ToT etc). So they are now forced to develop a 6th gen version of the PAK FA for the future, make it competitive with the PCA, F/A-XX, LRS-B etc.

 

[Gomig-21]

In terms of low observability, not yet. The F3+ doesn't have the DEDIRA advantage yet. I suppose only the F3R has this advantage.

They started working on DeDIRA for Rafales back in 2010 or thereabouts, and the concept shouldn't be that difficult in that it's mostly related to RAM and some modification to the SPECTRA. You'd think they would've already gotten the RAM done.

I don't know why but your AF have purchased only the Mig-29M, and not the main Mig-35 that is still being developed.

The only difference between the EAF MiGs and what MiG Corporation calls the MiG-35 is strictly the lack of the AESA radar. Our MiGs have the Zhuk-ME just like your MiG-29Ks and MiG hasn't completed the AESA radar yet. So when they do, and then let's say the EAF upgrades the radar, does it suddenly move from being a MiG-29M/M2 to a MiG-35/D? It's ridiculous and if I'm not mistaken, MiG has actually dropped the M designation and now just calls it the MiG-35.

Even your naval MiG-29Ks are exactly that. The only reason they have to be designated Ks is because they are navy birds with naval features such as tougher landing gears and an arresting hook.

But there is nothing different in these MiGs than what makes a MiG-35 other than the radar. And the TVC is not a standard feature, but an option.

But the Rafale has much better sensors than the F-22, and pretty much on par with the F-35. For example, the Rafale and F-22's radar have similar range performance even though Rafale's radar is half the F-22 radar's size. While the Rafale and F-35 have numerous sensors, Rafale's sensor fusion actually works.

Woah! Are you suggesting the F-35's sensor fusion doesn't work? Ouch. I would call @gambit to rebut you on that one but he doesn't really answer @'s for some reason. Let's see if he does.

When it comes to ECM, Rafale has full spectrum ECM, while the F-35's ECM is only from its radar. The F-22's radar is yet to be upgraded to use ECM. The Rafale is a full-fledged EW aircraft, where even pilot intervention is allowed. This feature is not available on the F-35.

I'm actually aware of that part and think it's awesome.

As for the PAK FA, they made it so good that they can't afford it, there are more avionics than the F-22, Rafale and F-35 put together, including stuff that don't exist on any of the other aircraft. If they can't afford it, then neither can we (they are trying to shaft us more, no guarantees on ToT etc). So they are now forced to develop a 6th gen version of the PAK FA for the future, make it competitive with the PCA, F/A-XX, LRS-B etc.

I'll tell you what, despite what shortcomings it might or might not have, I'll take it any day of the week when it's available. 24/7/365. Like I mentioned before, I wouldn't mind seeing a pair of squadrons of this beauty in the EAF, and our squadrons are not in the 20 AC range like you guys. Egyptian squadrons are made up of 12 aircraft each which include a trainer, so 26 units would work just fine, even with Su-35 engines until the new one is ready.

 

[gambit]

Woah! Are you suggesting the F-35's sensor fusion doesn't work? Ouch. I would call @gambit to rebut you on that one but he doesn't really answer @'s for some reason. Let's see if he does.

I busted him for his misconception of the components of the AESA radar system. I no longer take this guy seriously, not even as an interested layman.

 

[Gomig-21]

I busted him for his misconception of the components of the AESA radar system. I no longer take this guy seriously, not even as an interested layman.

That's too bad. I think he makes some pretty "eye-opening" observations and more often than not, he backs them up pretty well. But @randomradio , some of the things you do claim are a bit out of this world, bro, lol.

 

[randomradio]

They started working on DeDIRA for Rafales back in 2010 or thereabouts, and the concept shouldn't be that difficult in that it's mostly related to RAM and some modification to the SPECTRA. You'd think they would've already gotten the RAM done.

DEDIRA is complete as of 2015. And they have apparently introduced it on Rafale F3R, not the F3+. But the F3+ will also get these upgrades in time.

You will like this if you haven't read it already.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/07/14696.html

The only difference between the EAF MiGs and what MiG Corporation calls the MiG-35 is strictly the lack of the AESA radar. Our MiGs have the Zhuk-ME just like your MiG-29Ks and MiG hasn't completed the AESA radar yet. So when they do, and then let's say the EAF upgrades the radar, does it suddenly move from being a MiG-29M/M2 to a MiG-35/D? It's ridiculous and if I'm not mistaken, MiG has actually dropped the M designation and now just calls it the MiG-35.

Yeah. The airframe is pretty much the same. But the radar and such are different. My point is you should have waited for the AESA version, it's just a small wait. And I hope you have ordered the more advanced air to air missiles compared to what we have.

The Mig-35 offered to India was inferior to the new Mig-35. And you can't compare the new Mig-35 with our older Mig-29Ks or Mig-29UPG. But our Mig-29s have a very advanced internal EW suite.

Woah! Are you suggesting the F-35's sensor fusion doesn't work? Ouch. I would call @gambit to rebut you on that one but he doesn't really answer @'s for some reason. Let's see if he does.

It's still under development. They have been pushing test points to the next block. So they have moved a lot of development to Block 4. And even Block 4 has been divided into 2 or 3 sub-blocks.

I'll tell you what, despite what shortcomings it might or might not have, I'll take it any day of the week when it's available. 24/7/365. Like I mentioned before, I wouldn't mind seeing a pair of squadrons of this beauty in the EAF, and our squadrons are not in the 20 AC range like you guys. Egyptian squadrons are made up of 12 aircraft each which include a trainer, so 26 units would work just fine, even with Su-35 engines until the new one is ready.

That new engine is a real killer. I really hope the new engine is a real option for our Super MKI upgrade.

I busted him for his misconception of the components of the AESA radar system. I no longer take this guy seriously, not even as an interested layman.

Blah, blah. You nitpicked on a mistake, which I admitted I made, but it doesn't change the point I was making. Your arguments had nothing to do with the point I made because your aircraft (F-22) is still stuck with the same radar it started off with while the Rafale is now going towards its third radar system within the same period of time and has a 4th "significantly" more advanced "system of systems", with 360 degree capability, on the way before the F-22 gets its first proper (regular ol') radar upgrade.

Rafale: PESA > Analog AESA (200Km range, 1m2) > Digital AESA (pay it and take it) > Digital AESA with GaN (they are here now)

F-22: Old analog AESA from the early 2000s with a measly 2000-2200 T/R modules... yet to be upgraded. If you choose Rafale's decade old analog radar instead, at least you will get 3000+ modules out of it.

(The F-35 and Rafale have the same radar range, even though the F-35's radar is so much bigger. )

Also your conclusions on Spectra was hilarious. Nobody can afford doing what you said. But you were so busy nitpicking that you missed something that only required common sense to understand.

That's too bad. I think he makes some pretty "eye-opening" observations and more often than not, he backs them up pretty well. But @randomradio , some of the things you do claim are a bit out of this world, bro, lol.

Most of the stuff I've claimed is from the people in the business, who are actually "current" and "up to date".

Just 5 years ago even I was like, "AESA" "PRF" "jittering" "sampling" "SPECTRA overhyped" etc. Then in 2014 I learned the truth after Garuda V. The Rafale showed off some incredible capabilities then. And in 2015, they openly started talking about the completion of DEDIRA and bringing Rafale's RCS down to VLO.

 

[gambit]

Blah, blah. You nitpicked on a mistake, which I admitted I made,...

Buddy, it was a FUNDAMENTAL misconception on your part. Made because you failed to do basic research before you post. When it was clear that you fecked up royally, you moved the goal posts to say that it was your interpretation of what constitute a 'module' when you tried so hard to make your interpretation to be universal.

F-22: Old analog AESA from the early 2000s with a measly 2000-2200 T/R modules... yet to be upgraded. If you choose Rafale's decade old analog radar instead, at least you will get 3000+ modules out of it.

Yeah...Am still waiting for any credible source that says I can have more beams than available T/R modules. Other than your interpretation of 'module', of course. Put your shit over at the Indian forums, it will not fly here, pal.

 

[Daghalodi]

Buddy, it was a FUNDAMENTAL misconception on your part. Made because you failed to do basic research before you post. When it was clear that you fecked up royally, you moved the goal posts to say that it was your interpretation of what constitute a 'module' when you tried so hard to make your interpretation to be universal.


Yeah...Am still waiting for any credible source that says I can have more beams than available T/R modules. Other than your interpretation of 'module', of course. Put your shit over at the Indian forums, it will not fly here, pal.

Let it go sir!!!

He is not worth wasting time!!

 

[randomradio]

Buddy, it was a FUNDAMENTAL misconception on your part. Made because you failed to do basic research before you post. When it was clear that you fecked up royally, you moved the goal posts to say that it was your interpretation of what constitute a 'module' when you tried so hard to make your interpretation to be universal.

Yeah...Am still waiting for any credible source that says I can have more beams than available T/R modules. Other than your interpretation of 'module', of course. Put your shit over at the Indian forums, it will not fly here, pal.

I already told you, it's the LRU I was referring to. That's how the French switch from PESA to AESA on the same radar in 2 hours, and that's how you can switch from analog to digital as well. You want GaN, even that can be done, on the very same radar. It's like a LEGO. Simply switch the 4-pack LRU to 8-pack LRU, that's how you double the beams within the same array space, because you are literally doubling the T/R modules physically.

In the F-22's case, you have to invent a whole new radar. While with the Rafale's radar, you can simply keep increasing the T/R modules within the LRU, with only power being a problem, since there is limited power supply, probably 20KW at best.

I never attempted to make anything universal. All I wanted to do was explain my point so we could move on with the actual discussion, ie Rafale. You were the one nitpicking, and I was the stupid one trying so hard assuming you were smart enough to get the point I was making. I was being highly specific to the Rafale, the same can't be applied to other radars. I wasn't out there changing some rules, that's why I even admitted to my mistake in using a wrong term. I didn't feck up anything, you were just too stubborn to take the time to understand the Rafale's design.

 

[Gomig-21]

I already told you, it's the LRU I was referring to. That's how the French switch from PESA to AESA on the same radar in 2 hours, and that's how you can switch from analog to digital as well. You want GaN, even that can be done, on the very same radar. It's like a LEGO. Simply switch the 4-pack LRU to 8-pack LRU, that's how you double the beams within the same array space, because you are literally doubling the T/R modules physically.

In the F-22's case, you have to invent a whole new radar. While with the Rafale's radar, you can simply keep increasing the T/R modules within the LRU, with only power being a problem, since there is limited power supply, probably 20KW at best.

Interesting information. Yeah man, the Rafale is quite the platform and is only getting better. It was really well designed and engineered and took a lot of ergonomics into consideration, from pilot welfare to ease of workload to engine maintenance to technology.

Egypt was interested in this aircraft back in the mid to late 2000's, but nothing materialized. Then it came with an mind-blowing package with the 2 Mistrals and Gowind corvette. We were like WTH?!?!? Psyched.

And just the other day, the SCALP EG/STORM SHADOW that was denied because of the US and ITAR was re-approved. So now Egypt will be a customer of one of the more potent, air-launched cruise missiles out there.

Yeah. The airframe is pretty much the same. But the radar and such are different. My point is you should have waited for the AESA version, it's just a small wait. And I hope you have ordered the more advanced air to air missiles compared to what we have.

Well, my point to you is that the radar can always be upgraded to the Zhuk-MA AESA and then what, suddenly the bird goes from a MiG-29M to a MiG-35? It just doesn't make sense that the designation changes just because of the radar. There was a report that it also lacked a target designator which I find absolutely ridiculous. Do you know if there's a similar situation with either the Indian MiG-29K or UPG?

As far as your point that they should've waited until the AESA radar was available, I think a couple of reasons brushed that notion aside. 1) There was a dire need for the fleet modernization to get going, especially with the MiG-21s and F-7s just getting older and older by the hour. And 2) that also prompted the idea that no one was exactly sure when the Zhuk-MA was going to be ready considering how long it was taking to develop it and the problems and setbacks they were having with it. Besides, despite it probably being a costly affair, still, there's always the option to upgrade it so I think most of us are fine with them making the move and purchasing the 50 platforms.

As far as the missiles, I think they're the standard export R-77/RVV-AE. I hope it is the export version of the R-77-1/RVV-SD which is the improved version and could very well be, we just don't know or have any info on them and neither do we about the R-73.

 

[randomradio]

Interesting information. Yeah man, the Rafale is quite the platform and is only getting better. It was really well designed and engineered and took a lot of ergonomics into consideration, from pilot welfare to ease of workload to engine maintenance to technology.

I am hoping they will eventually make public its LO/VLO capabilities.

Well, my point to you is that the radar can always be upgraded to the Zhuk-MA AESA and then what, suddenly the bird goes from a MiG-29M to a MiG-35? It just doesn't make sense that the designation changes just because of the radar. There was a report that it also lacked a target designator which I find absolutely ridiculous. Do you know if there's a similar situation with either the Indian MiG-29K or UPG?

Remember that Mig-35 is only a marketing designation. What made the original Mig-35, Mig-35, and separated it from other Mig-29s was the AESA and TVC. Everything else is simply the normal stuff you will find on any modernised Mig-29 regardless of designation.

Anyway, once you buy a radar, you will continue using it for at least 15 years. So I don't expect the EAF to simply throw away a perfectly good radar before its time is up.

As for the target designator, the Mig-35 comes with the T220. If Egyptian Mig-35 doesn't come with a target designator, that would be weird, but the aircraft can fire other types of PGMs also. IAF chose the Israeli Litening.

As far as your point that they should've waited until the AESA radar was available, I think a couple of reasons brushed that notion aside. 1) There was a dire need for the fleet modernization to get going, especially with the MiG-21s and F-7s just getting older and older by the hour. And 2) that also prompted the idea that no one was exactly sure when the Zhuk-MA was going to be ready considering how long it was taking to develop it and the problems and setbacks they were having with it. Besides, despite it probably being a costly affair, still, there's always the option to upgrade it so I think most of us are fine with them making the move and purchasing the 50 platforms.

As far as the missiles, I think they're the standard export R-77/RVV-AE. I hope it is the export version of the R-77-1/RVV-SD which is the improved version and could very well be, we just don't know or have any info on them and neither do we about the R-73.

It would be really nice to see an AESA radar and K-77M combo. The missile has an AESA seeker and a dual pulse motor. Its range is over 200Km.

 

[Gomig-21]

Anyway, once you buy a radar, you will continue using it for at least 15 years. So I don't expect the EAF to simply throw away a perfectly good radar before its time is up.

Yeah, lol, completely agree and that will most likely never happen, not even after 15 years. My point was simply that it doesn't make any sense that the radar would change the designation from a 29 to a 35. There's usually a lot more involved for a drastic leap, not necessarily that the upgrade will happen. 100% chance it never will. The Zhuk-ME is an outstanding radar and this whole AESA thing is a minimal upgrade IMO, compared to the ME.

As for the target designator, the Mig-35 comes with the T220. If Egyptian Mig-35 doesn't come with a target designator, that would be weird, but the aircraft can fire other types of PGMs also. IAF chose the Israeli Litening.

Exactly and the EAF has ordered the T220. The rumor was in the Arabic forum circle that a bunch of "non-Egyptians" were wondering why some were calling it the M/M2 and others the 35 and to settle it, the guy who runs MENA (Middle East & North Africa) Defense website who happens to be Algerian went to MAKS and interviewed Alexei Federov or whomever the big guy at MiG is and asked him that question. The guy basically said that it's essentially the same thing minus the radar and the target deisgnator. When I heard that I thought this guy is a complete tool! He either doesn't even know that the EAF ordered the T220 OR, he might be talking about an eventual, built-in target designator that's supposed to be a feature in the MiG-35.

Remember that Mig-35 is only a marketing designation. What made the original Mig-35, Mig-35, and separated it from other Mig-29s was the AESA and TVC. Everything else is simply the normal stuff you will find on any modernised Mig-29 regardless of designation.

Actually the TVC engines/nozzles are offered as an option on the aircraft. It's listed on their website's brochure.

It would be really nice to see an AESA radar and K-77M combo. The missile has an AESA seeker and a dual pulse motor. Its range is over 200Km.

I'll be happy with just the R-77-1 TBH, and I'd like to see them thinking about the Su-35.