Egypt plans to procure additional Rafale fighter jets

[randomradio]

Saudis are not really happy with them since years...Egypt took side of Qatar in recent GCC crisis...

Egypt is working against Qatar.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/07/egypt-compromise-dispute-qatar-170725132801327.html
Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry, speaking after talks with the European Union diplomatic chief Federica Mogherini in Brussels on Tuesday, said Qatar must accept in full the demands by Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates (UAE).

MiG-35. I personally hope to see the Su-35 in the EAF at some point. I think 48 Rafales (even with their incredible range) are still not the large, heavy payload fighters like the F-15 & Su-35 that Egypt could certainly use. For decades our mainstay was the F-16 and it's duties were strained with all the territory it had to cover. And the other, older aircraft were only relegated to certain sectors and so the F-16s carried most of the duties. Now they can share with the Rafales but a bird in the caliber of the F-15 or Su-35 (preferably the latter because of weapon's restrictions on the F-15) would fill in a huge area that is much needed.

The Su-30SM is a much better option for Egypt compared to the Su-35. Particularly one that has been upgraded with 5th gen avionics.

It's much more optimised for strike than the Su-35, while having all the advantages of the Su-35's performance with new engines. You can even get the French to install the Talios and Areos on it and link the jet with the 60 Rafales.

 

[Gomig-21]

Yeah i agree people are being small minded if they think saudi's are bank rolling military equipment for free, they would never do that and rather buy themselves these jets.

Go to the money changers in hurghada and then you can see the reason why Egypt can afford to buy Rafaels and Mig35's from Russia. I had never seen so many Euros, so many Pound Sterling and Rubel in a foreign country before, these money changers seemed to have more foreign currency then local currency all because of the thousands of tourists coming each week.

Loved Hurghada, people were friendly and went out of their way to ask where i was from once they herd me speak english they kept asking where i was originally i.e Pakistan.

I went to snorkelling in Orange bay a small island in the red sea, absolutely incredible the sea life you guys have. i was amazed at seeing all the under water life

Also i have to add the Red Sea is incredible to swim in and enjoy. easily the best beach i have ever visited. It makes the dubai beaches look like dirty canals

would recommend everyone looking for a good cheap holiday to visit Egypt

Awesome, man. That is quite the endorsement. I couldn't agree more. We have been very fortunate and blessed for not only having these exquisite waters and land, but the other most vital aspect of our tourism sector is all the ancient Egyptian stuff. If I'm not mistaken that side of the coin (pun intended) is much larger business for Egypt than those luscious waters and beaches.

But yep, the waters are exquisite indeed, and the sea life is out of this world. From sharks of all species (including whale sharks you can swim and ride with) to dolphins and sea turtles and everything in between.
I'm sure you know this but for those who might not, they call it the Red Sea because of its famous red coral that makes certain parts of the sea look red.

BTW, it's interesting how the word ended up being Hurghada in English considering in Arabic we call it Ghardaka. The K being pronounced almost silently, or more like a hiccup A lol.

It's also interesting when you think about how the Israelis tried taking it twice. Was it really to create a buffer zone between us EVIL BARBARIC Egyptians who supposedly wanted to shove them into the sea, or was it because they realized the magnitude of this Biblical piece of exquisite land and figured in time they could either annex the entire peninsula or maybe a portion of it because of its beauty and potential? Mmmm....

Some pics from there and other areas of Sinai to entice your memory!

Coming into Hurghada from above.

This is Marsa Alam, another favorite for divers and sea life that's incredible.

This is actually Marsa Matruh which is a little further west of the famous battlefield of El Alamein in the northern, Mediterranean shores of Egypt. The sand is a white color that is softer than whip cream lol, not to mention the waters.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Well if you are so smart then f off to yalla yalla board.
You talk do much yet a tiny country called Isreal makes you bend over and you talk big here.

That tiny nuclear armed state is an outpost of the US (undisputed superpower) and West and the Israeli/Jewish elites are dominating the most important sectors in the very same West. We don't have to mention what that same undisputed superpower (USA) have done to your country.

Don't worry, I am already active on Arab military forums (several times larger than PDF) but I am active here as well from time to time but not for the sake of your likes.

you come across really racist on this forum, some sort of king vs slaves mentality.

its not a good look

For saying that the usual Pakistani suspects in this thread (trolls) are bullshitting? You have a very funny definition of racism or are you already predisposed in this regard?

One of the users who thanked your post (a compatriot) earns his daily breed in the UAE, an Arab country, so it can't be that bad can it! There are literally 50 + Pakistanis here who live in Arab countries. Amazing.

He is an Arab...

Thick as F

I told you this a few times already. The day that you even reach the knees of what Arabs and our ancient Semitic ancestors (who funded the earliest civilizations on the planet and basically invented the first civilized societies on the planet) achieved, you can talk about who is thick and who is not. Speaking about racism, crybaby.

The only thick behavior and racism that I have seen in this thread derived from your compatriots.

As if KSA is bankrolling the military of every single Arab country and Egypt of all freaking countries. The stupidity and when challenged rightly, the crying and shouting racism. What a pathetic victim mentality. If I had an inherent problem, I would not waste even a second on PDF. Just too stupid but not surprised. You do have a few screws loose after all.

 

[Gomig-21]

The Su-30SM is a much better option for Egypt compared to the Su-35. Particularly one that has been upgraded with 5th gen avionics.

It's much more optimised for strike than the Su-35, while having all the advantages of the Su-35's performance with new engines. You can even get the French to install the Talios and Areos on it and link the jet with the 60 Rafales.

Really? I was always under the impression that the Su-35 was the ultimate of the current Flankers. You can't do the same french modification on the Su-35?

I think the issue is also that there is way too much Israeli avionics on the Su-30 series and that shhhtuuuff doesn't sit well with the Egyptian military brass, while Su-35 doesn't have Israeli components, from what I've "heard."

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Awesome, man. That is quite the endorsement. I couldn't agree more. We have been very fortunate and blessed for not only having these exquisite waters and land, but the other most vital aspect of our tourism sector is all the ancient Egyptian stuff. If I'm not mistaken that side of the coin (pun intended) is much larger business for Egypt than those luscious waters and beaches.

But yep, the waters are exquisite indeed, and the sea life is out of this world. From sharks of all species (including whale sharks you can swim and ride with) to dolphins and sea turtles and everything in between.
I'm sure you know this but for those who might not, they call it the Red Sea because of its famous red coral that makes certain parts of the sea look red.

BTW, it's interesting how the word ended up being Hurghada in English considering in Arabic we call it Ghardaka. The K being pronounced almost silently, or more like a hiccup A lol.

It's also interesting when you think about how the Israelis tried taking it twice. Was it really to create a buffer zone between us EVIL BARBARIC Egyptians who supposedly wanted to shove them into the sea, or was it because they realized the magnitude of this Biblical piece of exquisite land and figured in time they could either annex the entire peninsula or maybe a portion of it because of its beauty and potential? Mmmm....

Some pics from there and other areas of Sinai to entice your memory!

Coming into Hurghada from above.

This is Marsa Alam, another favorite for divers and sea life that's incredible.

This is actually Marsa Matruh which is a little further west of the famous battlefield of El Alamein in the northern, Mediterranean shores of Egypt. The sand is a white color that is softer than whip cream lol, not to mention the waters.

KSA and Egypt have the best coastlines in the region by far. Not even a competition IMO. KSA's coastline is just more wild, unspoiled, slightly more longer and KSA has 1500 + islands as well. Neighboring Egypt has many islands as well but I am not sure if the number is that big. Obviously Egypt's beach holiday destinations are much more famous and much more visited for obvious reasons.

All those areas are like taken from Hijaz in particular.

The Gulf of Aqaba is a thing of beauty.

Take a look at this threads below, I am sure that you will like them.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/heat...bia-could-save-the-worlds-dying-reefs.565464/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/exploring-saudi-arabias-marine-wonderland.251910/page-15

Another thing that I have noticed during my time here in Southern Spain, is that both KSA and Egypt (Red Sea coastline cities and certain areas on both sides of the Red Sea) have a milder climate (microclimate). It is genuinely hotter here right now.

Two examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Wajh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahab

It must be the currents that moderate the otherwise hot (during the summer) weather.

Interestingly coral reefs in the Gulf of Aqaba and large parts of the Red Sea are not dying while 50% of all the other corals of the world (The Great Barrier Reef in Australia in particular, being the largest coral reef after those in the Red Sea) are struggling (turning white). Something strange is going on.

 

[Gomig-21]

KSA and Egypt have the best coastlines in the region by far. Not even a competition IMO. KSA's coastline is just more wild, unspoiled, slightly more longer and KSA has 1500 + islands as well. Neighboring Egypt has many islands as well but I am not sure if the number is that big.

No comparison. Saudiya has many more islands for sure, even total coastal line, if we add all of Egypt proper's Red Sea coast and all of east and west coasts of Sinai doesn't come close. And there are really many out-cropping and isolated beauties in Saudiya's coasts that are really not found anywhere else in the world. Those can be tapped for incredible tourism.

Obviously Egypt's beach holiday destinations are much more famous and much more visited for obvious reasons.

Yes, for sure. I always thought of that and how it must be difficult for Saudiya to find that happy medium. But it looks like you're heading in the right direction, thanks to the man himself MbS.

Another thing that I have noticed during my time here in Southern Spain, is that both KSA and Egypt (Red Sea coastline cities and certain areas on both sides of the Red Sea) have a milder climate (microclimate). It is genuinely hotter here right now.

Two examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Wajh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahab

It must be some currents that moderate the otherwise hot (during the summer) weather.

Amazing. That entire area sits on the line of some sort of jet stream that separates that harsh weather in both extremes. Like I mentioned before, we are blessed MashAllah walhamdulillah.

Interestingly coral reefs in the Gulf of Aqaba and large parts of the Red Sea are not dying while 50% of all the other corals of the world are struggling (turning white). Something strange is going on.

I am concerned, ma bro. With all the projects they're putting up at the speed of light (and these aren't small little rinky dink ones, either, these are MEGA PROJECTS) along with the new gas/oil discoveries they just made and Suez economic zone project and canal traffic increasing exponentially, that there will inevitably be an impact of some kind. I can only hope that we have brilliant ecologists who can advise on the best way to protect these immaculate waters. With all these projects and traffic comes a ton of pollution and that's essentially what has killed all the other corals in the world. You bring up a great point but I am worried to tell you the truth. A lot of these people see $$$$ signs and just trample or squeeze their way around rules and regulations that are in place to protect that vital eco system and beauty that who knows if they even exist in the first place.

@randomradio

Speaking of the actual thread topic loooool.... apparently MBDA is set to launch the MICA NG by the end of this month and it will become the standard on the Rafale F4 which is what I'm assuming India has ordered? Do you know if this is part of the weapons package for the Indian Rafales? And what is exactly the entire weapons package anyway, do you know?

 

[randomradio]

Really? I was always under the impression that the Su-35 was the ultimate of the current Flankers.

The Russian designation for Su-35BM is air superiority and Su-30SM is multirole.

With the Super 30 upgrade that's coming up, it will comfortably beat the Su-35 in pretty much every way.

You can't do the same french modification on the Su-35?

You can. But why bother when India will make the Su-30SM better through Super MKI and pay for Rafale tech integration anyway. Even the Russian Su-30SM uses Indian computers.

I think the issue is also that there is way too much Israeli avionics on the Su-30 series and that shhhtuuuff doesn't sit well with the Egyptian military brass, while Su-35 doesn't have Israeli components, from what I've "heard."

There's nothing on the Su-30SM that's Israeli. The Indian MKI has Israeli stuff, which have all been Indianised anyway. Malaysians and Algerians also don't use Israeli stuff on their respective MKI versions.

 

[Gomig-21]

You can. But why bother when India will make the Su-30SM better through Super MKI and pay for Rafale tech integration anyway. Even the Russian Su-30SM uses Indian computers.

That makes sense, but...

There's nothing on the Su-30SM that's Israeli. The Indian MKI has Israeli stuff, which have all been Indianised anyway. Malaysians and Algerians also don't use Israeli stuff on their respective MKI versions.

Oh yes they do, my friend. Algerian MKA's were loaded with Israeli crap don't you remember that scandal? The first (either MLU or inspection) the Algerians did on their Su-30's when they opened up compartments left and right, they found Israeli stuff everywhere. They were pissed off to no end because apparently the Russians never informed them that they had installed Israeli sub-systems. Not sure what eventually happened, this was roughly 8+ years ago but it was all over the news.

Russians definitely use Israeli sub-systems and components and even avionics on their export Su-30s.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Russians definitely use Israeli sub-systems and components and even avionics on their export Su-30s.

Like an Old Spy said: "Russians Love Israeli Craps." (Craps as a Friendly word of Saying "Good")

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio

Speaking of the actual thread topic loooool.... apparently the MBDA is set to launch the MICA NG by the end of this month and it will become the standard on the Rafale F4 which is what I'm assuming India has ordered? Do you know if this is part of the weapons package for the Indian Rafales? And what is exactly the entire weapons package anyway, do you know?

We don't know if we chose the MICA or MICA NG, but I highly doubt it's the NG. And we've ordered the F3R, not F4. Anyway, we have a whole host of indigenous weapons planned for the Rafale.

Our weapons contract was actually really small in comparison to the number of jets we ordered. Only about $22M per jet. The Qataris paid almost 4 times we did.

 

[RoadRunner401]

I've also explained that the Saudi and UAE money that came was put into the central bank reserves as not only collateral for the $2 billion IMF loan

Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait pumped US$19.5 billion into the Egyptian central bank which enabled French lending institutions to finance Cairo’s Dassault Rafale fighter purchase.

Details of how a cash strapped government of Egyptian President Sisi was able to strike a US$ 6 billion arms package deal with Paris are now emerging in French and Egyptian media reports. A banking source in London contracted by defenseworld.net said this is perhaps the first time an arms deal which resembles a large industrial investment has been worked out.

"Egypt will finance a little over half of the amount, the rest being borrowed from a pool of banks,” a source from within the French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian’s delegation which signed the Egyptian deal was quoted as saying by a French newspaper.

According to Les Echos newspaper, the banking pool would consist of a dozen institutions, including Crédit Agricole, Societe Generale and BNP Paribas.

The loan is to be secured by the credit insurer Coface, thus ensuring around 2.5 billion euros in loans which will be guaranteed by the French state, “a new level of insurance in an arms deal,” said Les Echos.

Egypt is to pay the balance 2.5 billion Euros as per delivery schedules of the military hardware. However, the cash strapped Egyptian government would not be able to keep its repayment commitments. Cairo is facing a budget deficit of 17.7% and the growth rate for 2014-2015 is estimated at 3.8% of GDP (as per International Monetary Fund projections) with revenues from tourism, investment and inward remittances plunging to record lows.



This is where Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait come in with their $ 19.5 billion funding to the Egyptian central bank which is expected to narrow the budget deficit to 12.5% of GDP and thus help it keep up to its payment schedule.

 

[Gomig-21]

Our weapons contract was actually really small in comparison to the number of jets we ordered. Only about $22M per jet. The Qataris paid almost 4 times we did.

What about MICAs, Meteors, HAMMERS, SCALPs any of those?

 

[randomradio]

Oh yes they do, my friend. Algerian MKA's were loaded with Israeli crap don't you remember that scandal? The first (either MLU or inspection) the Algerians did on their Su-30's when they opened up compartments left and right, they found Israeli stuff everywhere. They were pissed off to no end because apparently the Russians never informed them that they had installed Israeli sub-systems. Not sure what eventually happened, this was roughly 8+ years ago but it was all over the news.

Russians definitely use Israeli sub-systems and components and even avionics on their export Su-30s.

All the Israeli components are actually visible to the eye. The Russians replaced it all with French and their own stuff.

In Algeria's case, they received Indian Mission Computers with Israeli interfacing in them. But there were no Israeli technologies to interface with. It was just the Russians being careless because it was actually not an issue.

Once cleared up, it didn't bother them anymore because they simply ordered more MKAs after that.

What about MICAs, Meteors, HAMMERS, SCALPs any of those?

We have confirmation about ordering SCALP and Meteor.

No confirmation about MICA being ordered. We have ordered 493 MICAs through the M-2000 upgrade, so we don't have immediate need for it.

And we definitely didn't order AASM, we are going for the Israeli SPICE + Litening combo instead. AASM + Talios combo is an option and can be exercised later.

Apart from that, all Indian stuff.
Astra - BVR
Brahmos NG - 800Km range
Nirbhay - 1500Km range
AAW - 100Kg glide bomb with 100Km range
ARM - 150Km anti-radiation missile
HELINA - ATGM
NG LGB with 50Km range
Gravity bomb - nuke

 

[fitpOsitive]

The same Pakistani geniuses and ”Arab experts” in action on this section as usual.

Luckily Gomig-21 saved the day.

Bro, but there are many who are silently watching that all. Dont ignore them.

 

[Gomig-21]

Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait pumped US$19.5 billion into the Egyptian central bank which enabled French lending institutions to finance Cairo’s Dassault Rafale fighter purchase.

It wasn't to help finance Cairo's Dassault Rafale fighter purchase, as the rest of the article you're quoting clearly proves. It was exactly for the reasons I stated in my first post.

"Egypt will finance a little over half of the amount, the rest being borrowed from a pool of banks,” a source from within the French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian’s delegation which signed the Egyptian deal was quoted as saying by a French newspaper.

There you go. Financing the rest outside the loan are through periodic payments based on Egypt's military purchasing finances and not the money that Saudiya and the UAE provided which was to pump up the central bank's funds which were at a disastrous low, and was also collateral to the $2 billion IMF loan Egypt was seeking at the time and was granted.

According to Les Echos newspaper, the banking pool would consist of a dozen institutions, including Crédit Agricole, Societe Generale and BNP Paribas.

There you go. If the Saudi & UAE money was used in any way, it was simply money in the bank to show collateral and that's it. And collateral to mainly the IMF loan and secondary to other investments and procurement.

The loan is to be secured by the credit insurer Coface, thus ensuring around 2.5 billion euros in loans which will be guaranteed by the French state, “a new level of insurance in an arms deal,” said Les Echos.

Yep, Coface is pretty much the monetary institution that is financing the Egyptian Rafale deal(s).

Egypt is to pay the balance 2.5 billion Euros as per delivery schedules of the military hardware. However, the cash strapped Egyptian government would not be able to keep its repayment commitments. Cairo is facing a budget deficit of 17.7% and the growth rate for 2014-2015 is estimated at 3.8% of GDP (as per International Monetary Fund projections) with revenues from tourism, investment and inward remittances plunging to record lows.

And this was 2014-15. Current budget deficit stands at 4.4%. A far cry from 17.7% wouldn't you say?
And GDP growth is currently at 5.4% slated to reach 7% by 2019.

This is where Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait come in with their $ 19.5 billion funding to the Egyptian central bank which is expected to narrow the budget deficit to 12.5% of GDP and thus help it keep up to its payment schedule.

They must've worked wonders since the deficit is much lower than that predicted 12.5% and is actually at 4.4% like I mentioned. https://www.reuters.com/article/egy...half-fy-2017-18-down-to-4-4-pct-idUSC6N1M6009

So either way, I think it's pretty clear that the money from Saudiya, UAE and Kuwait was not use to purchase the Rafales. If they had any influence of some kind, it was strictly a collateral purpose but even that doesn't work very well in the case of arms purchases that include financing terms that extend into many years, since money in the bank can evaporate easily. What's more important is the economic status and it's future growth and sustainability that insures such contracts. If those weren't in a good place, none of these Rafales or other arms purchases would've happened simply based on available money in the bank.