Dr Abdus Salam and all the wrong choices Pakistan made

[SQ8]

Bhutto first and then what Zia built upon it, fvcked Pakistan to it's core. Now we are left till eternity with 1973 constitution, which will take the whole country to it's logical conclusion.

In the strange case of 'transformation of Pakistani culture to that of camel-lands"..... what's done can't be undone........

Well, the undone itself is going to push for its own end.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Akhtar Abdur Rehman. DG CI, Brigadier rank, DG Security Nuclear program, Lt.Gen rank both belong to Fiqqa a Jaffriya. Zia ul haq kept munir ahmed at the top position despite the allegations and it was speculated he done that so to feed americans wrong information about nuclear program making munir ahmed sort of triple agent

You will forgive me if I take those allegations with a pinch of salt for reasons given in my previous post.

 

[Bratva]

You will forgive me if I take those allegations with a pinch of salt for reasons given in my previous post.

Forgiven Well we dont have the access to intel and circumstances look absurd if we see those legations from present prism or lens . But back then when america was out to get to Pak nuclear program, It was extreme paranoia. Actually It was Shahibzada yaqoob khan who witnessed the interaction of Munir ahmed and Abdus alam with american officials.IIRC there is a meeting described in his book, where American met with shahibzada and told him the precise workings and design of Pak nuclear program and when he got out of the meeting he glimpsed Abdus salam in another room with american officials. Both abdus salam and munir ahmed remained in regular contact. All these info leaks plus paranioa regarding munir ahmed activities created strong doubts in every one mind.

If you were in the loop back then, you would have thought of the same thing

 

[RAMPAGE]

Forgiven Well we dont have the access to intel and circumstances look absurd if we see those legations from present prism or lens . But back then when america was out to get to Pak nuclear program, It was extreme paranoia. Actually It was Shahibzada yaqoob khan who witnessed the interaction of Munir ahmed and Abdus alam with american officials.IIRC there is a meeting described in his book, where American met with shahibzada and told him the precise workings and design of Pak nuclear program and when he got out of the meeting he glimpsed Abdus salam in another room with american officials. Both abdus salam and munir ahmed remained in regular contact. All these info leaks plus paranioa regarding munir ahmed activities created strong doubts in every one mind.

If you were in the loop back then, you would have thought of the same thing

Hmmm .... Something like that from the mouth of Sahabzada would indeed be convincing but considering that he didn't write any memoirs, I'd still like to give both doctors the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Nilgiri]

Ultimately, buddy, it's Pakistan's business. I can only regret with bitterness that he was not born an Indian. How we would have drowned him in love and affection.

He worked alongside many Indians as you may know (e.g Pati-Salam model). He was also doctoral advisor to a number of Indian students. He got along with Indians excellently and vice versa....he was quite close friends with Homi Bhabha if I remember correctly.

If some person creates a new sect in hinduism distorting the very fundamentals that should never be distorted, will he be still called a hindu?

Tell me what are the fundamentals of Hinduism?

Hinduism itself is made up of an array of what you can call "sects". There is no Hindu code. Some branches of Hinduism label others as "nastik" or heterodox (eg. Buddhism, Carvaka and certain other streams that reject the authority of Vedas which are considered by the mainstream sects to be "Sruti" or "revealed" similar to what you Muslims consider for Quran)....but those heterodox branches are free to identify themselves as Hindu if they so desire. In fact any belief system in the world can claim this label if it so desires, in the Vedas it is said..."Truth is one, sages call it by many names". What people identify themselves as is something Hinduism is rarely if ever concerned with from religion standpoint.

 

[Joe Shearer]

He worked alongside many Indians as you may know (e.g Pati-Salam model). He was also doctoral advisor to a number of Indian students. He got along with Indians excellently and vice versa....he was quite close friends with Homi Bhabha if I remember correctly.

A very close relative, in his own right a Bhatnagar Award and a Nehru Award winner, was very close to him, and used to look forward to the annual seminars at Trieste with avid interest. India was very well represented at Trieste, and it was these friends, admirers and, if it may be said with humility, collaborators who gave him a warm welcome in Delhi after Zia's frigid treatment immediately before.

Tell me what are the fundamentals of Hinduism?

Hinduism itself is made up of an array of what you can call "sects". There is no Hindu code. Some branches of Hinduism label others as "nastik" or heterodox (eg. Buddhism, Carvaka and certain other streams that reject the authority of Vedas which are considered by the mainstream sects to be "Sruti" or "revealed" similar to what you Muslims consider for Quran)....but those heterodox branches are free to identify themselves as Hindu if they so desire. In fact any belief system in the world can claim this label if it so desires, in the Vedas it is said..."Truth is one, sages call it by many names". What people identify themselves as is something Hinduism is rarely if ever concerned with from religion standpoint.

 

[Joe Shearer]

He worked alongside many Indians as you may know (e.g Pati-Salam model). He was also doctoral advisor to a number of Indian students. He got along with Indians excellently and vice versa....he was quite close friends with Homi Bhabha if I remember correctly.

Tell me what are the fundamentals of Hinduism?

Hinduism itself is made up of an array of what you can call "sects". There is no Hindu code. Some branches of Hinduism label others as "nastik" or heterodox (eg. Buddhism, Carvaka and certain other streams that reject the authority of Vedas which are considered by the mainstream sects to be "Sruti" or "revealed" similar to what you Muslims consider for Quran)....but those heterodox branches are free to identify themselves as Hindu if they so desire. In fact any belief system in the world can claim this label if it so desires, in the Vedas it is said..."Truth is one, sages call it by many names". What people identify themselves as is something Hinduism is rarely if ever concerned with from religion standpoint.[/QUOTE]

@Nilgiri @Bratva

I am more and more coming to align myself with the German scholar who has been claiming that we should accurately consider a 'family' of religions, as we think of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, when we think of Indian belief systems. According to him, the Vaishnavite school shares a theogony with others, but its prescribed path to salvation is so distinct that it should be seen as a distinct religion, its votaries should be seen as a distinct priesthood, its followers as a distinct religious community, and so on. If I remember correctly, he sees at least six distinct religions: the three core Hindu dogmas, Vaishnavism (followers of Vishnu), Saivites (followers of Siva) and Shaktas (followers of the Goddess); Buddhism, whose dogma and metaphysics is similar to the other three and yet clearly distinct, Jainism, about which much the same can be said, and the Sikh confession.

Philosophical systems criss-cross through this. For instance, Advaita, promoted by Sankaracharya, Vishishtadvaita, taught by Ramanujacharya, and Dvaita, explained by Madhvacharya broadly map on to Saivism, Vaishnavism and Saivism again, although in saying this, we are violating the broad guidance of the Advaita school that an individual may take refuge in any of the five forms of the one God, Ganapati, Vishnu, Siva, Shakti and Surya; we are also about to jump into hopeless confusion when we consider the overlaps between this pre-modern Hindu dogma and Buddhism.

Moral of the story: Don't even try getting involved.

 

[Nilgiri]

Tell me what are the fundamentals of Hinduism?

Hinduism itself is made up of an array of what you can call "sects". There is no Hindu code. Some branches of Hinduism label others as "nastik" or heterodox (eg. Buddhism, Carvaka and certain other streams that reject the authority of Vedas which are considered by the mainstream sects to be "Sruti" or "revealed" similar to what you Muslims consider for Quran)....but those heterodox branches are free to identify themselves as Hindu if they so desire. In fact any belief system in the world can claim this label if it so desires, in the Vedas it is said..."Truth is one, sages call it by many names". What people identify themselves as is something Hinduism is rarely if ever concerned with from religion standpoint.

@Nilgiri @Bratva

I am more and more coming to align myself with the German scholar who has been claiming that we should accurately consider a 'family' of religions, as we think of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, when we think of Indian belief systems. According to him, the Vaishnavite school shares a theogony with others, but its prescribed path to salvation is so distinct that it should be seen as a distinct religion, its votaries should be seen as a distinct priesthood, its followers as a distinct religious community, and so on. If I remember correctly, he sees at least six distinct religions: the three core Hindu dogmas, Vaishnavism (followers of Vishnu), Saivites (followers of Siva) and Shaktas (followers of the Goddess); Buddhism, whose dogma and metaphysics is similar to the other three and yet clearly distinct, Jainism, about which much the same can be said, and the Sikh confession.

Philosophical systems criss-cross through this. For instance, Advaita, promoted by Sankaracharya, Vishishtadvaita, taught by Ramanujacharya, and Dvaita, explained by Madhvacharya broadly map on to Saivism, Vaishnavism and Saivism again, although in saying this, we are violating the broad guidance of the Advaita school that an individual may take refuge in any of the five forms of the one God, Ganapati, Vishnu, Siva, Shakti and Surya; we are also about to jump into hopeless confusion when we consider the overlaps between this pre-modern Hindu dogma and Buddhism.

Moral of the story: Don't even try getting involved.

The way I see it, its like one bunch of Hindus saying another bunch of Hindus are not Hindus because they have inserted/replaced 1 or 2 avatars of Vishnu (you will actually see this as some include Buddha, others don't and prefer to have Balaram count as one separate from Krishna instead and I have seen some issues w.r.t counting Parashuram and sometimes even Mohini separate from Kurma avatar)....because to me thats similar to the line of prophets in Islam where Muhammad is the last and final but Ahmadis I believe add their founder to the end as well if I am not mistaken.

That kind of thing has too many instances to count in Hinduism in all types of facets. Southerners for example believe Ganesh (Pillayar as we call him) to be the elder brother...and Kartikeya (Murugan as we call him) to be the junior...and its reversed completely in North I believe (in fact North the story of Ganesh creation already has an elder Kartikeya who challenged the young Ganesh before Shiva did in the succession of challengers before Shiva himself shows up at the end with Trishul)...but that brings no ideological conflict as to who is the correct Hindu and who is a heretic.

Plus you bring up even higher order level of philosophy like Dvaita and Advaita, Shaivism, Vaishnavism and Shaktiism etc. This is just within the orthodox schools of thought. Then the very concept of god as polytheistic, trinitistic, monistic, monotheistic or even agnostic and atheistic...I can find examples of schools for each one.

But anyway I fear we are straying way off topic....but you are completely right. Dharmic basket is actually even larger than when considering Judaism, Christianity and Islam (Abrahamic religion) since these at least have at their core pure monotheist dogma consistently (though one can argue there is a subtle conceptual hint of potential other deities in the 10 commandments...as long as you dont worship them before/instead of the almighty....similar to the ideological transition from the Vedic pantheon to the trinity in Hinduism).

 

[Joe Shearer]

To be very honest, I wouldn't be surprised if those allegations were cooked up by some radical at the top of the food chain.

Koi zabardasti hai?

LOL.

OK, OK. It's just that there are many Pakistanis I wish were Indians. Edhi being top, followed by Salam, followed by a long list of feisty Pakistani women handling their very difficult environment with enviable ease, followed by hundreds and thousands of people in civvy street and the military with whom I'd be happy to have a beer and talk about things - about Gilgit, for instance, with @WAJsal who's been torturing us all with pictures of the natural surroundings there.

 

[Nilgiri]

LOL.

OK, OK. It's just that there are many Pakistanis I wish were Indians. Edhi being top, followed by Salam, followed by a long list of feisty Pakistani women handling their very difficult environment with enviable ease, followed by hundreds and thousands of people in civvy street and the military with whom I'd be happy to have a beer and talk about things - about Gilgit, for instance, with @WAJsal who's been torturing us all with pictures of the natural surroundings there.

Count me in too! But maybe not the beer since I wouldnt want to offend any of our hosts.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Count me in too! But maybe not the beer since I wouldnt want to offend any of our hosts.

OK, lime juice or ginger ale for those not alcoholically minded.

 

[Nilgiri]

OK, lime juice or ginger ale for those not alcoholically minded.

I certainly would like to meet Edhi just once if I could only choose just one (to simply say thank you, I don't know what else to say really), since Abdus Salam has left us (or maybe you have a time machine for this).....and of course chill with PDF friends. Maybe one day it can be so.

 

[dadeechi]

The way I see it, its like one bunch of Hindus saying another bunch of Hindus are not Hindus because they have inserted/replaced 1 or 2 avatars of Vishnu (you will actually see this as some include Buddha, others don't and prefer to have Balaram count as one separate from Krishna instead and I have seen some issues w.r.t counting Parashuram and sometimes even Mohini separate from Kurma avatar)....because to me thats similar to the line of prophets in Islam where Muhammad is the last and final but Ahmadis I believe add their founder to the end as well if I am not mistaken.

That kind of thing has too many instances to count in Hinduism in all types of facets. Southerners for example believe Ganesh (Pillayar as we call him) to be the elder brother...and Kartikeya (Murugan as we call him) to be the junior...and its reversed completely in North I believe (in fact North the story of Ganesh creation already has an elder Kartikeya who challenged the young Ganesh before Shiva did in the succession of challengers before Shiva himself shows up at the end with Trishul)...but that brings no ideological conflict as to who is the correct Hindu and who is a heretic.

Plus you bring up even higher order level of philosophy like Dvaita and Advaita, Shaivism, Vaishnavism and Shaktiism etc. This is just within the orthodox schools of thought. Then the very concept of god as polytheistic, trinitistic, monistic, monotheistic or even agnostic and atheistic...I can find examples of schools for each one.

But anyway I fear we are straying way off topic....but you are completely right. Dharmic basket is actually even larger than when considering Judaism, Christianity and Islam (Abrahamic religion) since these at least have at their core pure monotheist dogma consistently (though one can argue there is a subtle conceptual hint of potential other deities in the 10 commandments...as long as you dont worship them before/instead of the almighty....similar to the ideological transition from the Vedic pantheon to the trinity in Hinduism).

Hinduism is a very open and decentralized religion. It cannot be compared to any of the organized religions of the west.

Not only the school of thoughts have changed over the ages but also the gods themselves from Mitra, Varuna & Indra in early Vedic period to Balaji/Venkateswara in the recent years.

 

[dadeechi]

Philosophical systems criss-cross through this. For instance, Advaita, promoted by Sankaracharya, Vishishtadvaita, taught by Ramanujacharya, and Dvaita, explained by Madhvacharya broadly map on to Saivism, Vaishnavism and Saivism again, although in saying this, we are violating the broad guidance of the Advaita school that an individual may take refuge in any of the five forms of the one God, Ganapati, Vishnu, Siva, Shakti and Surya; we are also about to jump into hopeless confusion when we consider the overlaps between this pre-modern Hindu dogma and Buddhism.

Surely there are more than five. What about Tripura Rahaya?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Surely there are more than five. What about Tripura Rahaya?

I am not an expert on these philosophical systems yet, although I am studying them (just started a month ago) with increasing amazement and interest.

I have read about these five; you may well be right, but I have only these five.