Don't define Muslims by their worst
- Thread starter Al-zakir
- Start date
I think Buddhism would be the REAL religion of peace.
Contributing:
What have the Muslims ever done for us? For Civilization?
Unlike historical Christianity where religion and science were often contradictory, the study & development of Science has always been a religious obligation in Islam. It was only when Muslims started neglecting their Islamic obligations that they also neglected this one, and fell badly behind.
Many people are discouraged when they see the poor standard of living in Muslims countries throughout the developing world. They also know the undeveloped status of technology within the Muslim countries in comparison with the West. From these observations, many leap to the conclusion that the Muslim countries are 'backward' because Islam cannot adapt itself to the changing conditions; cannot assimilate new knowledge - even though many Christian countries also in the developing world, in South-America, the Philippines and some African countries suffer similar if not worse problems. Some people go so far as to say that Islam itself is against progress and against scientific advancement, and always has been. People who have the slightest bit of objectivity looking back at history will know that this is a complete fallacy and misconception.
Let us do a very brief anecdotal review of the contribution of Islam to civilization as we know it.
Invention of Zero & decimal mathematics
First of all, the number zero was invented by Muhammad bin Moosaa, who was also the first to use the decimal point notation.
The great historian Gibbons wrote in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Volume 5) that the science of chemistry owes its origin and improvements to the Muslims. Without zero and decimal notation, the modern age of binary and therefore digital electronics, processors, and computers would not exist.
Trigonometry, Sine, Tangent, Co-Tangent
The Arabs developed these functions in trigonometry and Ibn Moosaa's work Hisaab-Al Jab-Wal Muqaabala (The Calculation of Integration and Equation) presented 800 examples in the 8th century CE. His work was translated from Arabic into Latin, and until the 16th century CE (800 years later) it was Europe's main textbook on the subject.
Geometry and Algebra
Another great mathematician was Omar Khayyaam, who offered to the world geometric and algebraic solutions of the second degree. Naseeruddeen wrote the treatise on quadrilateral trigonometry, as well as plain and spherical geometry.
Physics
Kamaaluddeen examined the refraction of sunlight in raindrops and offered an explanation of the genesis of primary and secondary rainbows. The story of the invention of the pendulum and the presentation of a water clock to Emperor Charlemagne by the Caliph Haaroon Ar-Rasheed is well known.
Science of Mechanics
The development of the science of mechanics in Islam is an act of genius. Moosaa bin Shaakir described one hundred pieces of mechanical equipment in his book of artifices. Other outstanding Muslim treatises included Al Kitaab Fi Ma`rifat Al-Hiya Al-Handasiyyah (The Book of the Knowledge of Ingenious Geometrical Contrivances) by Abul Fiaz bin Al Raz and Al Kitaab Meezanal-Hikmah (The Book of Balance and Wisdom) by Al-Khazini. He also did work on accurate weighing, and determination of the specific gravity of substances.
The Science of Robotics
800 years ago in 1206, a Muslim scholar named Abū al-'Izz ibn Ismā`īl al-Jazarī died. He was one of the most important inventors and mechanical engineers in the history of technology. His magnum opus book of mechanics called "A Compendium on the Theory and Useful Practice of the Mechanical Arts" was the most significant treatise in the Islamic tradition of mechanical engineering and a ground breaking work in the history of mechanics. 800 years ago al-Jazari laid the foundations of modern cybernetics and robotic science. Prof. Toygar Akman narrates in his testimony article his own discovery of the work of the great 13th century Muslim scholar. He shows further how al-Jazari's mechanical achievements laid the ground to a proto science of robotics avant la lettre.
Camera Obscura
In the field of optics, the Camera Obscura (pinhole camera) was invented by Ibn Haytham in 1038 CE. Leonardo da Vinci (born 500 years later) is often misleadingly mentioned as the first inventor of the Camera Obscura.
Theory of Relativity
Qaadhi Abu Bakr had developed the theory of relativity in the 8th century CE in terms of time and space by means of mathematical equations and astrophysics. Imagine, Einstein propounded the same theory of relativity over a thousand years later in the 20th century CE.
Geography
As far as geography was concerned, Muslim scientists established that the world was round in the 8th century CE, and in fact the Quran states so and also mentioned that the earth, moon, and sun have orbits. The first map of the globe was made during the Caliphate of Ma'moon (d. 833). In 1513 Turkish Admiral Hajji Muhi-ad-Deen Piri Ibn Hajji Muhammad Rais (Piri Reis in the west) drew a surprisingly and extremely accurate map of the coast of South America, and the land mass of Antarctica showing the coastline under the ice. Geological evidence confirms that the latest date Queen Maud Land could have been charted in an ice-free state is 4000 BC. It is still a mystery as to how he did it, although he admits in his notes he used source maps dating back hundreds of years. It is the oldest map of Antarctica being drawn more than 3 centuries before the official discovery of that continent by Europeans. In his map he knew the accurate circumference of the Earth to within 50 miles.
Paper Making
This was one of the earliest skills attained by the Muslims. As early as the 8th century CE, high quality paper was being manufactured in Samarqand. Egypt was known to have its first paper mill in the year 900 CE. The earliest Arabic manuscript written on paper that has been discovered is the Ghareeb Al Hadeeth by Abu 'Ubayed, dated 837 CE. It can be seen in Holland preserved in the library at the University of Leyden.
Building flying machines, Automatic Machines, Submarines and Rocket Technology
In the Topkapi Palace is an invaluable document copied in the fourteenth century that consists of three different works. The first section is called "Kitab anīq fi'1-manajniq" and written in 775 for Ibn Aranbugha Al-Zardkāsh, the Ayyubi commander or for Mingili Boga al-Shimmin. The second section is the book called "The book of rockets, bombs and burning arrows”, written by the Turkish commander Alaaddin Tayboga al-Omari al-Saki al-Meliki al-Nasir.
Leonardo da Vinci is often mentioned as the first inventor of the theory of flying machines. However, it is known that Leonardo da Vinci was inspired by the work of al-Hazen. We have to remind here that a hand-written copy of the technical work of Ahmed b. Musa, the Islamic engineer, is still in the Vatican Library. In the Islamic world, the first attempts at flight are seen long before the European attempts. A Turkish scholar of Sayram (Ispidjap) had researched the relationship between the wing surfaces of birds and their weights, to find the physical causes for flight and attempted to duplicate it. This work set new horizons in the field of aerodynamics.
The most interesting of the flight attempts were those of Hazarfan Ahmed Celebi and Lagarī Hasan Celebi in 1630-1632 during the reign of the Caliph Sultan Murad IV. Evliya Celebi, who personally witnessed these flight attempts, gave the following information in his travel book, the hand-written copies of which can be found in the Libraries of Istanbul:
"Hazarfan Ahmed Celebi: First he practiced flying over the pulpit of Okmeydani eight or nine times with eagle winds, using the force of the wind. Then, as Sultan Murad was watching from the Sinan Pasha mansion at Sarayburnu, he flew from the very top of the Galata Tower and landed in the Dogancilar Square in Uskudar, with the help of the south-west wind. Then Sultan Murad granted him a sack of golden coins.”
The Turkish engineer Lagarī Hasan Celebi, flying with a seven-winged rocket of his own invention and then landing safely on the sea with eagle-like wings, is very similar to the sea-landing methods of Americans, with parachutes after their voyages into space. Therefore, Lagarī Hasan Celebi deserves a special place in the history of aviation, with his flight attempt, which opened new horizons in rocketry techniques.
Advances in Industry
Under Islamic rule, Spain was an industrial center. It was one of the wealthiest and most thickly populated of the European countries. Muslims were leading in weaving wool, producing silk, pottery, jewellery, leather and perfume industry. In the Middle Ages, world trade was commanded by Muslims and Baghdad, Bukhaara and Samarqand remained centres for world fairs until the 16th century CE. The Bayt Al-Hikmah at Cairo contained two million books, the library at Tripoli contained some three million, but this library was burned down by the Christians during the first Crusade.
Coffee (For all you workaholics)
Abd al-Qadir al-Jaziri, who in 1587 compiled a work tracing the history of coffee entitled "Umdat al safwa fi hill al-qahwa" reported that the first coffee house was in Medinah only a generation after the prophet Muhammad died. They spread in the Muslim world in the 13th century, and later in Ottoman lands. The first coffee house to appear in Christian Europe was in Venice in 1645, due to trade with the Ottomans. Coffee was taken up by Sufi Muslims to keep the awake during spiritual sessions, devotional acts, studies, and prayer. There is an account of the discovery of coffee involving the Sufi Islamic scholar Shaikh ash-Shadhili. When travelling in Ethiopia, the legend goes, he observed goats of unusual vitality, and, upon trying the berries that the goats had been eating, experienced the same vitality.
Regrettably, today the West is at its peak and Muslims have lagged behind so far. However, our downfall is not due to Islam, as some would like us to believe, but due to our sheer neglect of Islamic principles. We must realize that Islam is undeniably a most progressive religion, which is in fact a way of life with very wide scope to inspire and encourage in many fields of life.
Islam encourages and urges its followers to learn, read, write and do research. Here are some proofs of the attitude of Islam towards education, learning and scientific thinking:
1. The first verses revealed in the Holy Quran say: "Read! Read! in the name of your Lord, who created mankind..." This reflects the importance of reading and learning according to Islam.
2. The Holy Quran repeatedly orders Muslims to contemplate & study the universe, creatures, animals, seas, stars, the human body and plants.
3. The Holy Quran is scientific in its approach emphasising reason and evidence in argument, and thus it gives Muslims an example of scientific objectivity and the scientific approach. The Holy Quran often itself gives proofs to its statements. The word 'Aql (meaning intelligence) is used and emphasised repeatedly in the Quran.
5. The Holy Quran gives examples of rational objectivity by repeatedly blaming people for their blind imitation of their forefathers, blindly following superstitions and idolatry without evidence. This is certainly an invitation from the Holy Quran for people to think independently and critically. Independent thinking is an essential condition for creativity, which is the first condition to scientific innovations and technological progress.
6.Prophet Muhammad, encouraged Muslims to borrow and further develop technologies from other cultures - a prime example was of the use of Persian trench and ditch digging techniques by the Muslim Arabs led by prophet Muhammad during the siege of Medinah by the pagan Arabs.
7. Prophet Muhammad, ordered people to record knowledge in books, while books & even reading were banned in many parts of Europe for many centuries.
MuslimHeritage.com - Discover 1000 Years of Missing History
1001 Inventions: Home
BBC Documentary: “Bringing to Life the Islamic History of Europe” MuslimHeritage.com - Topics
The Independent: Islamic artists were 500 years ahead of Western scientists: Islamic artists were 500 years ahead of Western scientists - Science, News - The Independent
The Guardian: What have the Arabs ever done for us? What have the Arabs ever done for us? | World news | guardian.co.uk
_________________________________
My teacher[christian] in the High School i'm going to right now told me, "In Islam's Golden Age, they were successfully performing brain surgeries while the Christians in Europe were sitting in huts."
Contributing:
What have the Muslims ever done for us? For Civilization?
Unlike historical Christianity where religion and science were often contradictory, the study & development of Science has always been a religious obligation in Islam. It was only when Muslims started neglecting their Islamic obligations that they also neglected this one, and fell badly behind.
Many people are discouraged when they see the poor standard of living in Muslims countries throughout the developing world. They also know the undeveloped status of technology within the Muslim countries in comparison with the West. From these observations, many leap to the conclusion that the Muslim countries are 'backward' because Islam cannot adapt itself to the changing conditions; cannot assimilate new knowledge - even though many Christian countries also in the developing world, in South-America, the Philippines and some African countries suffer similar if not worse problems. Some people go so far as to say that Islam itself is against progress and against scientific advancement, and always has been. People who have the slightest bit of objectivity looking back at history will know that this is a complete fallacy and misconception.
Let us do a very brief anecdotal review of the contribution of Islam to civilization as we know it.
Invention of Zero & decimal mathematics
First of all, the number zero was invented by Muhammad bin Moosaa, who was also the first to use the decimal point notation.
The great historian Gibbons wrote in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Volume 5) that the science of chemistry owes its origin and improvements to the Muslims. Without zero and decimal notation, the modern age of binary and therefore digital electronics, processors, and computers would not exist.
Trigonometry, Sine, Tangent, Co-Tangent
The Arabs developed these functions in trigonometry and Ibn Moosaa's work Hisaab-Al Jab-Wal Muqaabala (The Calculation of Integration and Equation) presented 800 examples in the 8th century CE. His work was translated from Arabic into Latin, and until the 16th century CE (800 years later) it was Europe's main textbook on the subject.
Geometry and Algebra
Another great mathematician was Omar Khayyaam, who offered to the world geometric and algebraic solutions of the second degree. Naseeruddeen wrote the treatise on quadrilateral trigonometry, as well as plain and spherical geometry.
Physics
Kamaaluddeen examined the refraction of sunlight in raindrops and offered an explanation of the genesis of primary and secondary rainbows. The story of the invention of the pendulum and the presentation of a water clock to Emperor Charlemagne by the Caliph Haaroon Ar-Rasheed is well known.
Science of Mechanics
The development of the science of mechanics in Islam is an act of genius. Moosaa bin Shaakir described one hundred pieces of mechanical equipment in his book of artifices. Other outstanding Muslim treatises included Al Kitaab Fi Ma`rifat Al-Hiya Al-Handasiyyah (The Book of the Knowledge of Ingenious Geometrical Contrivances) by Abul Fiaz bin Al Raz and Al Kitaab Meezanal-Hikmah (The Book of Balance and Wisdom) by Al-Khazini. He also did work on accurate weighing, and determination of the specific gravity of substances.
The Science of Robotics
800 years ago in 1206, a Muslim scholar named Abū al-'Izz ibn Ismā`īl al-Jazarī died. He was one of the most important inventors and mechanical engineers in the history of technology. His magnum opus book of mechanics called "A Compendium on the Theory and Useful Practice of the Mechanical Arts" was the most significant treatise in the Islamic tradition of mechanical engineering and a ground breaking work in the history of mechanics. 800 years ago al-Jazari laid the foundations of modern cybernetics and robotic science. Prof. Toygar Akman narrates in his testimony article his own discovery of the work of the great 13th century Muslim scholar. He shows further how al-Jazari's mechanical achievements laid the ground to a proto science of robotics avant la lettre.
Camera Obscura
In the field of optics, the Camera Obscura (pinhole camera) was invented by Ibn Haytham in 1038 CE. Leonardo da Vinci (born 500 years later) is often misleadingly mentioned as the first inventor of the Camera Obscura.
Theory of Relativity
Qaadhi Abu Bakr had developed the theory of relativity in the 8th century CE in terms of time and space by means of mathematical equations and astrophysics. Imagine, Einstein propounded the same theory of relativity over a thousand years later in the 20th century CE.
Geography
As far as geography was concerned, Muslim scientists established that the world was round in the 8th century CE, and in fact the Quran states so and also mentioned that the earth, moon, and sun have orbits. The first map of the globe was made during the Caliphate of Ma'moon (d. 833). In 1513 Turkish Admiral Hajji Muhi-ad-Deen Piri Ibn Hajji Muhammad Rais (Piri Reis in the west) drew a surprisingly and extremely accurate map of the coast of South America, and the land mass of Antarctica showing the coastline under the ice. Geological evidence confirms that the latest date Queen Maud Land could have been charted in an ice-free state is 4000 BC. It is still a mystery as to how he did it, although he admits in his notes he used source maps dating back hundreds of years. It is the oldest map of Antarctica being drawn more than 3 centuries before the official discovery of that continent by Europeans. In his map he knew the accurate circumference of the Earth to within 50 miles.
Paper Making
This was one of the earliest skills attained by the Muslims. As early as the 8th century CE, high quality paper was being manufactured in Samarqand. Egypt was known to have its first paper mill in the year 900 CE. The earliest Arabic manuscript written on paper that has been discovered is the Ghareeb Al Hadeeth by Abu 'Ubayed, dated 837 CE. It can be seen in Holland preserved in the library at the University of Leyden.
Building flying machines, Automatic Machines, Submarines and Rocket Technology
In the Topkapi Palace is an invaluable document copied in the fourteenth century that consists of three different works. The first section is called "Kitab anīq fi'1-manajniq" and written in 775 for Ibn Aranbugha Al-Zardkāsh, the Ayyubi commander or for Mingili Boga al-Shimmin. The second section is the book called "The book of rockets, bombs and burning arrows”, written by the Turkish commander Alaaddin Tayboga al-Omari al-Saki al-Meliki al-Nasir.
Leonardo da Vinci is often mentioned as the first inventor of the theory of flying machines. However, it is known that Leonardo da Vinci was inspired by the work of al-Hazen. We have to remind here that a hand-written copy of the technical work of Ahmed b. Musa, the Islamic engineer, is still in the Vatican Library. In the Islamic world, the first attempts at flight are seen long before the European attempts. A Turkish scholar of Sayram (Ispidjap) had researched the relationship between the wing surfaces of birds and their weights, to find the physical causes for flight and attempted to duplicate it. This work set new horizons in the field of aerodynamics.
The most interesting of the flight attempts were those of Hazarfan Ahmed Celebi and Lagarī Hasan Celebi in 1630-1632 during the reign of the Caliph Sultan Murad IV. Evliya Celebi, who personally witnessed these flight attempts, gave the following information in his travel book, the hand-written copies of which can be found in the Libraries of Istanbul:
"Hazarfan Ahmed Celebi: First he practiced flying over the pulpit of Okmeydani eight or nine times with eagle winds, using the force of the wind. Then, as Sultan Murad was watching from the Sinan Pasha mansion at Sarayburnu, he flew from the very top of the Galata Tower and landed in the Dogancilar Square in Uskudar, with the help of the south-west wind. Then Sultan Murad granted him a sack of golden coins.”
The Turkish engineer Lagarī Hasan Celebi, flying with a seven-winged rocket of his own invention and then landing safely on the sea with eagle-like wings, is very similar to the sea-landing methods of Americans, with parachutes after their voyages into space. Therefore, Lagarī Hasan Celebi deserves a special place in the history of aviation, with his flight attempt, which opened new horizons in rocketry techniques.
Advances in Industry
Under Islamic rule, Spain was an industrial center. It was one of the wealthiest and most thickly populated of the European countries. Muslims were leading in weaving wool, producing silk, pottery, jewellery, leather and perfume industry. In the Middle Ages, world trade was commanded by Muslims and Baghdad, Bukhaara and Samarqand remained centres for world fairs until the 16th century CE. The Bayt Al-Hikmah at Cairo contained two million books, the library at Tripoli contained some three million, but this library was burned down by the Christians during the first Crusade.
Coffee (For all you workaholics)
Abd al-Qadir al-Jaziri, who in 1587 compiled a work tracing the history of coffee entitled "Umdat al safwa fi hill al-qahwa" reported that the first coffee house was in Medinah only a generation after the prophet Muhammad died. They spread in the Muslim world in the 13th century, and later in Ottoman lands. The first coffee house to appear in Christian Europe was in Venice in 1645, due to trade with the Ottomans. Coffee was taken up by Sufi Muslims to keep the awake during spiritual sessions, devotional acts, studies, and prayer. There is an account of the discovery of coffee involving the Sufi Islamic scholar Shaikh ash-Shadhili. When travelling in Ethiopia, the legend goes, he observed goats of unusual vitality, and, upon trying the berries that the goats had been eating, experienced the same vitality.
Regrettably, today the West is at its peak and Muslims have lagged behind so far. However, our downfall is not due to Islam, as some would like us to believe, but due to our sheer neglect of Islamic principles. We must realize that Islam is undeniably a most progressive religion, which is in fact a way of life with very wide scope to inspire and encourage in many fields of life.
Islam encourages and urges its followers to learn, read, write and do research. Here are some proofs of the attitude of Islam towards education, learning and scientific thinking:
1. The first verses revealed in the Holy Quran say: "Read! Read! in the name of your Lord, who created mankind..." This reflects the importance of reading and learning according to Islam.
2. The Holy Quran repeatedly orders Muslims to contemplate & study the universe, creatures, animals, seas, stars, the human body and plants.
3. The Holy Quran is scientific in its approach emphasising reason and evidence in argument, and thus it gives Muslims an example of scientific objectivity and the scientific approach. The Holy Quran often itself gives proofs to its statements. The word 'Aql (meaning intelligence) is used and emphasised repeatedly in the Quran.
5. The Holy Quran gives examples of rational objectivity by repeatedly blaming people for their blind imitation of their forefathers, blindly following superstitions and idolatry without evidence. This is certainly an invitation from the Holy Quran for people to think independently and critically. Independent thinking is an essential condition for creativity, which is the first condition to scientific innovations and technological progress.
6.Prophet Muhammad, encouraged Muslims to borrow and further develop technologies from other cultures - a prime example was of the use of Persian trench and ditch digging techniques by the Muslim Arabs led by prophet Muhammad during the siege of Medinah by the pagan Arabs.
7. Prophet Muhammad, ordered people to record knowledge in books, while books & even reading were banned in many parts of Europe for many centuries.
MuslimHeritage.com - Discover 1000 Years of Missing History
1001 Inventions: Home
BBC Documentary: “Bringing to Life the Islamic History of Europe” MuslimHeritage.com - Topics
The Independent: Islamic artists were 500 years ahead of Western scientists: Islamic artists were 500 years ahead of Western scientists - Science, News - The Independent
The Guardian: What have the Arabs ever done for us? What have the Arabs ever done for us? | World news | guardian.co.uk
_________________________________
My teacher[christian] in the High School i'm going to right now told me, "In Islam's Golden Age, they were successfully performing brain surgeries while the Christians in Europe were sitting in huts."
Who are you talking to and what are you talking about?
Could you please be a little more descriptive in your posts.
Well, it can't be Islam/Christianity/Hinduism/Judaism, thanks to forced conversions in Christianity, Suttee/Caste-discrimination/etc in Hinduism, Sharia punishments in Islam, and I dont even need to explain the atrocities in the name of Israel.
Al-zakir
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I remember when seung-hui cho a Korean dissent kill 32 innocent fellow students yet all most all media called him a sick mental who went nut. No one has blame entire Korean community lived in USA or else where in the world and that was right thing to do.
On the flip side, when
killed some than all most all media try to label him as Islamic terrorist as if Islam allow such act.
Why is this double standard when comes to Islam or Muslim.
World needs to remember that there are few millions of us living in USA and about 2 billions of us all around the world thus if we all go nut than world will seized to exist.
Muslims are suffering most now a days so some of them can go nut out of frustration but that should not be excuse to label all of us as terrorist elements.
Solomon2
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Actually, you do. Because almost all the alleged "atrocities in the name of Israel." are falsehoods: either outright lies, or contextual distortions.
Solomon2
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It didn't help that Hasan claimed to be committing treason out of loyalty to Islam. I'm not sure what the media said, I don't watch it, but to those who met him, Americans and Arabs alike, he stood out as odd, to say the least. It seems he was inspired by a particular Al Qaeda-oriented imam, a man reportedly hunted and whose house was today demolished by Yemen's government - a dramatic repudiation of "Islamic terrorism" by Muslims. link I suppose more such acts would help lessen unfavorable coverage of Muslims in the media.
Solomon2
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fhassan, you can't imagine how refreshing it was to read your list of "best" Muslims. It's such a nice change! But on this point, we differ: Muslims are judged as everyone else is judged, not by "contrasting them with Islam." And for those not familiar with Islam, it is a natural starting point to suspect "the instruction manual" rather than the person.
Then I see you do agree that they did. Dropping a bomb on Gaza to kill a bunch of terrorists and end up killing dozens of civilians in the process. And the terrorists killing less people than peanuts do in Israel. But we don't see them bombing the peanut factory, now do we?
Solomon2
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As Hamas' leaders confessed to the U.N. in the infamous Goldstone Report, they actively employed human shields to protect their fighters and their rocket crews intent on bombarding Israel. According to some military analysts, under the circumstances Israel did an amazing job of limiting civilian casualties.
That's the missing context. In fighting an enemy who employs human shields, civilian casualties are almost unavoidable. So who committed the atrocity, those who dropped the bomb intending to kill terrorists or those who put civilians in the way with the intent of making them targets?
Pakistan's current offensive against the Taliban has also killed civilians, but you don't see pictures of that because (1) journalists' movements are restricted by the military, and (2) people here have told me that would offend local tastes. If you did see those pictures, would you suddenly think the Pakistan Army was hell-bent on creating atrocities? (The 1971 PA certainly was. )
Translation: because peanuts accidentally kill a few people in Israel, terrorists should be allowed to get away with deliberately killing people in Israel. Would you accept it if I stabbed your child to death and justified getting away with it by citing your "peanut defense"?
Still, there is one small kernel of truth in what you said. The terror casualties were small. Israel put up with it for a long time. But the cost wasn't just in lives, but in the fact that increasingly large numbers of people had to hide and scamper from the rockets every single day to avoid injury. Do you think any other nation on Earth would have shown the patience Israel did, weighing the costs not only to its own people but to the populace under enemy control before taking action?
(This isn't really the place for such a response - it's off-topic - but it is necessary because holding my type would be permitting you to get away, unchallenged, with a casual but popularly-accepted calumny. So it's up to the mods whether to keep, move, or delete it - but just to make sure, I'm sending you a copy by vm as well.)
Dawkins
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Atleast u have some sort of a chance in another thread. Stating my views will simply be deemed offensive to all religions
btw religion was always stated to be outside the scope of this forum .. why is this being discussed at length here
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