Does the PA need more troops to fight terror?

[RescueRanger]

AM

Extension of respect is for every individual member who reciprocates or extends the same. As such designation of an individual does not automatically entitle respect if the attitude does not command the same.

Please continue to moderate if you please in a non-partisan way and delete posts ONLY if they are not justified.

Thanks

I have already responded to your PM, the matter is closed. Now lets not get into this useless argument again. Because we both know how much we value each other's opinion.

Batman: Coming to the Issue of Levies , if Pak were to create a new force as it were based on the Marine Exped Force (That is what you are sugesting, yes?) Would this become part of PA or be an extension of the Ministry of Interior's (Internal Security Wing)?

If Min Interior (then we know that it will end up like Rangers ATF), if PA then we need input from the likes of FM on this one... What is your opinion on this?

Because we know that ANF has been operating in and around that region on Anti Narcotics Ops, perhaps input from the ANF taskforce trained by the BATFE and DEA back in 07 would be good on developing some sort of GIS tool for field operators.

Belive it or not GIS has taken massive leaps and bounds with Pakistan's first Civillian GPS map being made available for Purchase at Naqsha.net

The tech can easily work with most handheld and car mounted GPS. Perhaps the military could also look into E-Enabling their ops planing? As in 05 Quake we discovered the true power of GIS mapping for Risk and Damage Assessment.

The UN Office for Coordination of Humanitatian Affairs (Remote Recon and Response Team) used GIS tech to carry out remote damage assessment and map out which areas were heavily damaged (high risk).

That way, they were able to send the right rescue teams and resources to the areas with the highest need... Kind of like a really sophisticated Petro Analysis.

Here are some UNOSAT images of Disasters in Pak:
http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/fr..._dam_burst_pasni_post-disaster_300dpi_A4.jpeg

http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images...arabad_pakistan_earthquake_pre-disaster_H.jpg

http://isferea.jrc.ec.europa.eu/Activities/ProjectPortfolio/PublishingImages/2004_RESPOND/4.jpg

I was very impressed with this, could someone shed some light on this... Is there a possibility for such tools to be integrated into PA atleast at planning level?

Furthermore we know that roughnecks and green beret's intructors and advisers from the US Centcom and SOC have been training our boys and girls since early last year. What if any new developments have been made in this area? It is still pretty hush, hush i gather.

But will it follow the US intervention (training and advisory) like we witnessed in the LEA and Emergency Services sector or will it be somthing else entierly?

I would really like some input on this from a Pakistani (Serving/Ex Serving) prespective. Also if somone like S2 could provide some input, that would be very welcome.

Things are very fluid right now, i hope they change for the better. We have seen concrete results in PTS sihallah, EPTS Lahore and NPA Islamabad with American Assistance, so lets see where this takes us.

 

[nik007]

DOES PAKISTAN army needs MORE numberOFtroops TO STOP terror?

growing insurgency in the tribal areas of pakistan , is causing panic on the regular troops which were not trainned to combat this type of warfare!

i guss its about time that , PAKARMY should form a new force , which can use to combat terror & insurgency in the tribal areas & also in every location of pakistan.
i guss, we need 2,00000 strong men fighting force , which should be highly trainned in counter insurgency, & fighting terror with modifyied traning & modifyied weapons & other tools?
i am , sure that it will going to bring , the much required depth & much required muscle ,even to counter india on the eastrn front!

right now its looking worse , in the light of any indian attack, on any given time, that we had to move our troops from fata, towards indian front!


plz , share your wise & hounrable thoughts!
but stay away from trolling!

thanks

my dear sir. Think.

Has India ever been the first one to strike pakistan? even 71 war was started when PAF bombed IAF bases.

I assure u india wud never be the first to strike. even if it did, it will never be a suprise like kargil.

 

[Zulfiqar]

Has India ever been the first one to strike pakistan? even 71 war was started when PAF bombed IAF bases.

Have you forgotten what role did your intelligence agencies did in raising mukti bahini?

It was you guys who did the honors.

But will it follow the US intervention (training and advisory) like we witnessed in the LEA and Emergency Services sector or will it be somthing else entierly?

I would really like some input on this from a Pakistani (Serving/Ex Serving) prespective. Also if someone like S2 could provide some input, that would be very welcome.

Things are very fluid right now, i hope they change for the better. We have seen concrete results in PTS sihallah, EPTS Lahore and NPA Islamabad with American Assistance, so lets see where this takes us.

Pakistan has its own battlefield management system and in a DAWN news clip,i saw an exercise in which the command center had laptops with graphical maps of the exercise area.It had grids and the coordinates plotted with the blue area and fox area(enemy's area) shown clearly.

I am sure we use such tech.


Here is a Pakistani company which produces squad personal positioning system.

Here is the link to the following description: ECOM SQPS SQUAD PERSONAL POSITIONING SYSTEMS > TARGETING AND POSITIONING SYSTEMS > MILITARY PRODUCTS

ECOM SQPS is a multiplier that a commando needs. The success of a squad behind enemy lines may just depend on this. After a para-drop from the plane inside hostile territory you must know where you and your squad are vis-à-vis the objective. SQPS is a personnel electronic map positioning system, the commander wears it on his belt. On a small portable color screen, he can view the map of the area, his objective, his own position and that of his entire squad. A miniature GPS sensor on the shoulder of every commando establishes his position, which is electronically transmitted to the commander and displayed on hand computer via the squad radio. The entire mission is programmed in the map on the commanders hand computer overlaid on the geographic map of the area.

The main site's military page: Military Products - East West Infiniti (P) Ltd.

Use quicklinks on the site as the flash links don't work properly

 

[RescueRanger]

Have you forgotten what role did your intelligence agencies did in raising mukti bahini?

It was you guys who did the honors.





Pakistan has its own battlefield management system and in a DAWN news clip,i saw an exercise in which the command center had laptops with graphical maps of the exercise area.It had grids and the coordinates plotted with the blue area and fox area(enemy's area) shown clearly.

I am sure we use such tech.


Here is a Pakistani company which produces squad personal positioning system.

Here is the link to the following description: ECOM SQPS SQUAD PERSONAL POSITIONING SYSTEMS > TARGETING AND POSITIONING SYSTEMS > MILITARY PRODUCTS



The main site's military page: Military Products - East West Infiniti (P) Ltd.

Use quicklinks on the site as the flash links don't work properly

Thank you very much for this... Excellent Link, Kudos!

 

[Hellfire]

my dear sir. Think.

Has India ever been the first one to strike pakistan? even 71 war was started when PAF bombed IAF bases.

I assure u india wud never be the first to strike. even if it did, it will never be a suprise like kargil.

nik

please appreciate the significance of the threat perception of any nation. tell me one thing, in your opinion, do you think India will remove further troops to bolster security of border with Bagladesh and Nepal which is being increasingly seen as a terrorist insertion route? Do you think that the troops for such a situation will be taken from China oriented formations? Answer is no. We need minimum number of troops to secure our territories. Chinese-Indian and Indian-Pakistani situation and military placement is not same. While it will take China sometime to build an offensive capability strong enough for sustained opertaions in area due to nature of terrain (thus giving us time to reinforce defences by shifting troops there) the same is not the case for Pakistan, for any breach in defences in plains will only get widened and leave the defending army (in this case PA) susceptible mortally.

 

[Hellfire]

Thank you very much for this... Excellent Link, Kudos!

Sir

That gives me an idea for you to explore ...... why does not GoP introduce Battlefield Surveillance Radars in the theater?

It shall definitely give you real time information of personnels against whom you are operating.

Thanks

 

[RescueRanger]

Sir

That gives me an idea for you to explore ...... why does not GoP introduce Battlefield Surveillance Radars in the theater?

It shall definitely give you real time information of personnels against whom you are operating.

Thanks

Hmm... That is an excellent suggestion, i feel it is high time we started a large scale e-empowerment of our forces. Infact that is the kind of technology i was initially interested to find out if our guys are already using or not.

Altough that battle mapping system does sound quite robust, but real time monitoring of ground assetts will be amazing and surely deliver results in the long run.

 

[batmannow]

I have already responded to your PM, the matter is closed. Now lets not get into this useless argument again. Because we both know how much we value each other's opinion.

Batman: Coming to the Issue of Levies , if Pak were to create a new force as it were based on the Marine Exped Force (That is what you are sugesting, yes?) Would this become part of PA or be an extension of the Ministry of Interior's (Internal Security Wing)?

If Min Interior (then we know that it will end up like Rangers ATF), if PA then we need input from the likes of FM on this one... What is your opinion on this?

Because we know that ANF has been operating in and around that region on Anti Narcotics Ops, perhaps input from the ANF taskforce trained by the BATFE and DEA back in 07 would be good on developing some sort of GIS tool for field operators.

Belive it or not GIS has taken massive leaps and bounds with Pakistan's first Civillian GPS map being made available for Purchase at Naqsha.net

The tech can easily work with most handheld and car mounted GPS. Perhaps the military could also look into E-Enabling their ops planing? As in 05 Quake we discovered the true power of GIS mapping for Risk and Damage Assessment.

The UN Office for Coordination of Humanitatian Affairs (Remote Recon and Response Team) used GIS tech to carry out remote damage assessment and map out which areas were heavily damaged (high risk).

That way, they were able to send the right rescue teams and resources to the areas with the highest need... Kind of like a really sophisticated Petro Analysis.

Here are some UNOSAT images of Disasters in Pak:
http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/fr..._dam_burst_pasni_post-disaster_300dpi_A4.jpeg

http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images...arabad_pakistan_earthquake_pre-disaster_H.jpg

http://isferea.jrc.ec.europa.eu/Activities/ProjectPortfolio/PublishingImages/2004_RESPOND/4.jpg

I was very impressed with this, could someone shed some light on this... Is there a possibility for such tools to be integrated into PA atleast at planning level?

Furthermore we know that roughnecks and green beret's intructors and advisers from the US Centcom and SOC have been training our boys and girls since early last year. What if any new developments have been made in this area? It is still pretty hush, hush i gather.

But will it follow the US intervention (training and advisory) like we witnessed in the LEA and Emergency Services sector or will it be somthing else entierly?

I would really like some input on this from a Pakistani (Serving/Ex Serving) prespective. Also if somone like S2 could provide some input, that would be very welcome.

Things are very fluid right now, i hope they change for the better. We have seen concrete results in PTS sihallah, EPTS Lahore and NPA Islamabad with American Assistance, so lets see where this takes us.

RescueRanger; dear sir!
thanks for your contribution to the thread,
well i guss, MI already had the things you were thinking about , & i think a new force should be established under the command of PAKARMY, because PAKARMY has the best of leadership, required to eliminate terror & its the only institution in pakistan which is not effected by any kind of likes & dislikes, crouption or other sicknesses which is the order of the day, in pakistan now a days?

i guss , we need at least 2 more divisions of something like US MARINES with some extra training of mountain warfare, & counter terrorism , it will surly going to give good results & at the same time it will bring the much needed power to pakarmy.
i guss , i had tried to open all to you?

 

[Hellfire]

RescueRanger; dear sir!
thanks for your contribution to the thread,
well i guss, MI already had the things you were thinking about , & i think a new force should be established under the command of PAKARMY, because PAKARMY has the best of leadership, required to eliminate terror & its the only institution in pakistan which is not effected by any kind of likes & dislikes, crouption or other sicknesses which is the order of the day, in pakistan now a days?

i guss , we need at least 2 more divisions of something like US MARINES with some extra training of mountain warfare, & counter terrorism , it will surly going to give good results & at the same time it will bring the much needed power to pakarmy.
i guss , i had tried to open all to you?

Sir

I agree over your view of PA having the operational command. Nucleus of any such force should be with PA regulars so as to ensure greater control and enhanced combat leadership at section/squad level.

Also why I have particularly brought up the topic of Battlefield Surveillance Radar is because the type of operations you are facing in SWAT make it a perfect piece of equipment that can be utilised effectively by SSG and PA regulars to neutralise entrenched/mobile TTP cadres in the area as also at the same time a force in BG mode can be deployed on border with Afghanistan to effectively cut off and isolate the TTP. BFSRs have been found quite effective in open terrain including in mountains.

A link just to highlight the utility:

BEL Battle Field Surveillance Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Battlefield Surveillance Radar

 

[batmannow]

Sir

I agree over your view of PA having the operational command. Nucleus of any such force should be with PA regulars so as to ensure greater control and enhanced combat leadership at section/squad level.

Also why I have particularly brought up the topic of Battlefield Surveillance Radar is because the type of operations you are facing in SWAT make it a perfect piece of equipment that can be utilised effectively by SSG and PA regulars to neutralise entrenched/mobile TTP cadres in the area as also at the same time a force in BG mode can be deployed on border with Afghanistan to effectively cut off and isolate the TTP. BFSRs have been found quite effective in open terrain including in mountains.

A link just to highlight the utility:

BEL Battle Field Surveillance Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Battlefield Surveillance Radar

hellfire;dear sir!
i guss, chinese had a lot of goodies in thier arsenal also scince they went up in the space & showed the power to hit & destroy the stalite warfare ?
i agree with you , for your contributions to the thread, THANKS A LOT of being a gentlemen
well special thanks to mr, Mian Asad shahib for introducing apakistani product & its ownners, i guss the best is what you can built by yourself? our athourities must be looking into the details of your given info!
but not only few of survllince & weapon systems we need?
we need a force , which can use these new found weapons & systems with lighting mobility, thunderous ATT , superficial intell & equipments, which can boost the security of the country's nucklear arsenal , county's stratgical locations, & provide full force support to PAKARMY regular infantry units .
surly , pakarmy needs a force With a lots of stuff but it only wouldbe resonable that GOP should announce this order ASAP?

 

[Hellfire]

hellfire;dear sir!
i guss, chinese had a lot of goodies in thier arsenal also scince they went up in the space & showed the power to hit & destroy the stalite warfare ?
i agree with you , for your contributions to the thread, THANKS A LOT of being a gentlemen
well special thanks to mr, Mian Asad shahib for introducing apakistani product & its ownners, i guss the best is what you can built by yourself? our athourities must be looking into the details of your given info!
but not only few of survllince & weapon systems we need?
we need a force , which can use these new found weapons & systems with lighting mobility, thunderous ATT , superficial intell & equipments, which can boost the security of the country's nucklear arsenal , county's stratgical locations, & provide full force support to PAKARMY regular infantry units .
surly , pakarmy needs a force With a lots of stuff but it only wouldbe resonable that GOP should announce this order ASAP?

I think a beginning can be made by introducing the tech with SSG which can be based as quick reaction team in major strategically placed locations in the region with adequate mobility in terms of heli support. These SF troops can be let "off leash" in search and destroy mode with clear intent to eliminate and liquidate any and all ANEs till as such a dedicated force starts taking up a shape and is introduced into the theater.

Yes Pakistan must develop its own technology. I had earlier said in an another thread about the need for Pakistan to have own R&D in order to be free of any foreign leverage.

Thanks

 

[batmannow]

troops foil attempt to loot ARMY relief convoy!
by
iftikhar.a.khan
28/may/2009
www.dawn.com

incidents, like these are a very clear example, of what PAKARMY need in those areas?
its just not should be a blame, game or pointing fingures to each others for the sake of political scorings,thus for the prpuse of real peace & real stability in the areas of FATA , pakistan needs a force which can provide the security to its citizens living in the dark shadow of voilent & extrem TALIBANS!
JUST a day before, mulla FM told his terrorists in SAWT , to stop fighting PAKARMY, because he was , worried about the common mans sufferings?
i dont belive that, mulla FM is worried about common man why!
yesterday's bomb blasts in lahore & in peshawar,it was pakistan's common man who was killed,what mulla FM is trying here ,is a clear stratgy to buy some time , save his mens & his resources, his militry hard ware,or let the PAKARMY hit empty or less important targets,so that GOP & PAKARMY can claim the victory!

its about time that our militry planners, should start thinking about the aftermyth of the on going militry opreation, , PAKARMY's fighting capability is un-questionable, they are fighting this war with super bravry , greatest dedication of all times of the militry history, i am really thankfull, & proud of them.
the main objective of the terrorsits(TALIBANS) in pakistani NWFP areas, is to hold grounds & launch attacks inside & outside pakistan, same way as they did in AFGHANISTAN?
To reach to a point , where PAKARMY & GOP would accept thier athourity & thier claims on these areas! surly GOP & PAKARMY cant do a MILITRY OPREATION again & again , these terrorists are doing well? in thier stratgy of HIDE & ATTACK & to holding the GROUNDS.

RIGHT now there are 2 million estimated peoples, who are displaced & bieng the victims of the fighting, i guss its about time , that GOP should find 5,00000 peoples from, these displaced peoples to form a force, which can provide sufficient security, & can search n destroy the terror camps in the future.
from its nature, this force should be put under PAKARMY's command , for training , & also for its smooth runing, they should be provide good mountain combat training, night recons training & emergency rescue training.
i guss, they could be called, FMMS -FRONTIER MOUNTAIN MARRINES.
the main objective, of this force, should be the denial of the pakistani grounds, search n destroy the terrorists infrastrucures, provide intell of the terrorists movments to PAKARMY, guide SOF teams to the accurate terrorsits locations, & to conduct rescue & devolpment work.

i guss, this kind of force is the need of hour, it will surly !bring ever lasting peace effect & also it will bring better jobs oppourtunity, to the areas in which terror is taking it birth!

 

[fatman17]

the PA dosnt need more troops - what they need is a sqdn of A-10C warthogs to blow these guys to kingdom come (the hell sector)

 

[batmannow]

the PA dosnt need more troops - what they need is a sqdn of A-10C warthogs to blow these guys to kingdom come (the hell sector)

Dear fatman17, shahib
its the frist , time i can say you are wrong or i got ya!
guss , what? USA has a lot more thn just a "sqdn of A-10C warthogs" but , still they cant do the job!

again , its a simple theory (strtgy) , what these terrorists are using from the very begining of the confilict, "HIDE & ATTACK , HOLD THE GROUND"!

THTS why, USA had increased its troops numbers in AFGHANISTAN?
so, PAKARMY does need , a supporting force in those areas!a force which would be based in those areas, but with more extensivly trainned & more objectivly oreintated

 

[batmannow]

Govt determined to counter militants’ backlash
Tuesday, 02 Jun, 2009 | 03:09 AM PST


By Syed Irfan Raza

ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari on Monday said the war against militancy is a total war and each and every section of the society must rise to the occasion to ‘defeat the mindset that creates and nurtures militancy.’

President Zardari along with Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani was presiding over a high level meeting here at the Aiwan-e-Sadr today to review the law and order situation.
The meeting was attended by the Federal Ministers for Information, Interior, Provincial Chief Ministers, Governor NWFP, Army Chief, the Chiefs of Intelligence Agencies, Prime Minister of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Chief Executive of Northern Areas, the Chief Secretaries and IGPs of all the provinces, Secretary General and senior officers of the relevant ministries of the federal government.
Talking to the media about the meeting Spokesperson to the President former Senator Farhatullah Babar said that the President expressed satisfaction over the success achieved in the war and said that the day was not far when militants would be so crippled that they would pose no threat to the people and the country.
He said that half of the war was to subdue and defeat the militants militarily and half of the war was to win the hearts and minds of the internally displaced persons.

The President said that the international community was more than willing to help Pakistan as was demonstrated in the recent meetings of the ‘Friends of Democratic Pakistan’ and leaders and law makers of the US, Britain, and France during his recent visit to these countries.

He said the people of Pakistan also, through the political parties, supported the ongoing operation against the militants in Swat, Malakand and other areas as has been demonstrated by the unanimous resolution adopted by the Parliament against militancy and the decisions of recently held All Parties Conference by the Prime Minister.

The combination of favourable domestic public opinion and the willingness of the international community to help had placed in the hands of government a great opportunity to eliminate the militants, mindset once and for all, the President observed.

President Zardari said that the nation cannot afford to lose this war for the sake of its own survival.

He said that while the government was determined to pursue fight to the finish, it was also working on a plan to strengthen the capacity of law enforcing agencies to win this war.
The President advised the government to step up implementation of the plan to strengthen law-enforcing agencies.

‘The will to fight must be strengthened with the capacity to fight,’ he said.

The President also underlined the need for strengthening the prosecution so as to bring the militants and criminals to speedy and efficient justice within the bounds of the existing legal frame-work and laws.

President Zardari said that the present fight against militants was also for the fight of ideas and ‘for winging this battle of ideas we need to carry out necessary reforms in the education system particularly in the Madrassa education so as to produce tolerant, moderate and forward looking youth who naturally detested militancy, extremism and intolerance.’

The President also praised the Armed Forces and the law enforcement agencies for the courageous fight they had put up against militants and for sacrifices they had made in the cause. He also praised the Prime Minister and the government for taking the militants head on.
The President said that an exit strategy with clear objectives be also devised that enabled the civil administration to take over the administration of the areas where the writ of the government had been established and from where the militants had been driven out.
www.dawn.com


EXPRESS tv , is saying that in that meeting , interroir minster "REHMAN MALIK" , has gave a briefing , for a new "COUNTER TERRORISTS FORCE" on the level of provinces.

so, some how in a way this thread , is working in some manner?