Do you think religion is a personal matter ?

[M. Sarmad]

@PakSword


There is not a single verse in the entire Holy Quran in which Allah almighty has prescribed a worldly punishment for any religious offense


Two things become absolutely clear if one reads the Holy Quran :

1) Allah says that there is no compulsion in religion [2:256], It is a matter of free choice , No one is allowed to to force anyone in religious affairs. It is only for Allah to decide the punishment for religious offences

2) Disorderly conduct/Crimes that cause disturbance in the society (e.g theft, robbery, rebellion etc.) are punishable offenses



In any modern Secular state ;

1) Religion is a personal matter and not the business of the state

2) Disorderly conduct/Crimes that cause disturbance in the society are punishable offenses



So, a "State" based purely on Quranic teachings would be essentially "secular" where religion would be a "personal matter" and not the business of the state ...

 

[comfortably_numb]

No answer.. We will know after death..

our knowledge about soul is very limited..

Yes indeed, and if I may add very vague as well. So you believe in a life after death, where perhaps the soul will transmigrate to be with the One? Will the soul then be accompanied by your perceived consciousness of this mortal world carrying with it all that you have done and experienced?

 

[I.R.A]

What is the Islamic political system anyway ? Allah has neither prescribed nor proscribed any specific "political system" for Muslims in the Holy Qur'an ... The Holy Qur'an is a book of guidance, and even a secular political system doesn't contradict the teachings of the Holy Qur'an ... In words of Iqbal, Islam as a religio-political system, no doubt, does permit such a view" (i.e separation of state and church) ... There is nothing in the Holy Qur'an to suggest that religion is NOT a personal matter but the business of the state ... Quite the contrary, the Holy Qur'an explicitly declares that everyone is free to follow his religion and no one is allowed to "impose" religion on anyone else ... So, yes, religion is one's personal matter and not the business of anyone else, including the State

"Religion should not be allowed to come into politics….Religion is merely a matter between man and God." and

"You may belong to any religion or caste or creed. That has nothing to do with the business of the state."

- Muhammad Ali Jinnah

All the messenger prophets and prophets were given kingdoms and states .... Yes or no?

 

[PakSword]

Yes indeed, and if I may add very vague as well. So you believe in a life after death, where perhaps the soul will transmigrate to be with the One? Will the soul then be accompanied by your perceived consciousness of this mortal world carrying with it all that you have done and experienced?

Yes.. But some say that soul also dies at some point.. It is a way of Allah to show to his creation (which includes souls) that there is no conscious being which doesn't die..

 

[PakSword]

There is not a single verse in the entire Holy Quran in which Allah almighty has prescribed a worldly punishment for any religious offense

That's what I discussed if you would read all my comments..

There are duties towards Allah, which don't have worldly punishment.. there are some sins which are punishable. They are not necessarily punished in a secular state..

 

[M. Sarmad]

All the messenger prophets and prophets were given kingdoms and states .... Yes or no?

Not all of them .... Only a few ... But that's besides the point

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) didn't give any "political system" to the Muslims, he didn't even appoint a successor .... It was left to the Muslims to devise political systems for themselves in the light of the teachings of the Holy Qur'an .. Early Muslims did that according to the needs of their times ... We need to do that according to the needs of our times ...

That's what I discussed if you would read all my comments..

There are duties towards Allah, which don't have worldly punishment.. there are some sins which are punishable. They are not necessarily punished in a secular state..

Secular morals and ethics change with time ... Morality derived from religion doesn't .. But that is another debate

 

[I.R.A]

Not all of them .... Only a few ... But that's besides the point

Re read .......... without state its useless.

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) didn't give any "political system" to the Muslims, he didn't even appoint a successor ....

Come on ..... not you ........ please ...... Muhammad Peace be upon him did appoint his successor, come on He Peace be upon him knew very well ..... please stop attributing this irresponsibility towards him, this is the real blasphemy .... undermining and telling lies about one's judgement, vision and sense of responsibility.

It was left to the Muslims to devise political systems for themselves in the light of the teachings of the Holy Qur'an .. Early Muslims did that according to the needs of their times ... We need to do that according to the needs of our times ...

I understand we need to drop those centuries old interpretations and look to Quran in accordance with needs and situation of our times, we are in better position to understand Quran more clearly than say someone 1000 years ago could.

But the thing is message of Quran without a state is redundant. I have pointed you earlier about concept of state clearly mentioned in Quran.

Yes secular principles of treating humans equal and with respect are Islamic ...... but ain't it hypocrisy to say that we humans devised these principles? Aren't they divine?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Come on ..... not you ........ please ...... Muhammad Peace be upon him did appoint his successor, come on He Peace be upon him knew very well ..... please stop attributing this irresponsibility towards him, this is the real blasphemy .... undermining and telling lies about one's judgement, vision and sense of responsibility.

Quote the exact Quranic verse please ...

As for Hadith, there are contradictions ... Some say he appointed Imam Ali (AS) as his successor ....
Others say that he implicitly appointed Abu Bakr (RA) ...

 

[PakSword]

Secular morals and ethics change with time ...

So it's a problem.. Today what's considered moral may not be considered immoral.. or vice versa..

 

[M. Sarmad]

But the thing is message of Quran without a state is redundant. I have pointed you earlier about concept of state clearly mentioned in Quran.

No, it's not ... The Holy Qur'an is a book of guidance for all mankind, as stated in the Qur'an itself ...

And please quote the exact Quranic verse which "clearly" mentions the concept of state, as we understand it today

 

[PakSword]

Some say he appointed Imam Ali (AS) as his successor ....
Others say that he implicitly appointed Abu Bakr (RA) ...

So you accept that he appointed a successor, the confusion is only between Hazrat Ali (KW) and Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA).

 

[Indus Pakistan]

If I understand you correctly your saying that Islam requires the accomodation of the personal and public then that means it not only requires the individual to submit but also the society to endorse. If that is true then by defnition it places all Muslims living in the west and or non Muslim societies in a bind. I should think a mullah somewhere ought to give a fatwa that no right minded Muslim should migrate to a non Muslim majority region/countries as that act trammels his/her ability to practice their faith.

Or to put it bluntly a Muslim can only live in a non secular state that supports or reinforces Islamic precepts. If this is case then I along with @war&peace and million of others Muslim are in right dodgy position.

@PakSword

 

[M. Sarmad]

So you accept that he appointed a successor, the confusion is only between Hazrat Ali (KW) and Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA).

As per the mainstream Sunni belief, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) didn't appoint any successor explicitly ....

No verse in Quran, No Sahih Hadith in this regard

Personally, I believe Imam Ali A.S was his true successor ... Imamat is superior to Khilafat anyway

 

[Zarvan]

Islam is not a personal matter never was never will. Those say other wise are ignorant about Islam in fact their knowledge of Islam is worse than that of Abu Juhal and Abu Lahab. Or than they are those who basically don't want to follow Islam so resort to these statements. Islam has entire social economic and justice system with state has prime responsibility to enforce those laws. If they fail than people have duty to get together and force Government to do its duty of enforcing Islamic Laws

 

[TheLahoriGuy]

But the thing is message of Quran without a state is redundant.

Believing in one God,praying to him,fasting in Ramadan, Paying Zakat to the poor, performing Hajj, staying away from haram, treating others with respect and differentiating between the lawful and unlawful.

Where exactly have you found the role of a state in this ?

Islam is not a personal matter never was never will. Those say other wise are ignorant about Islam in fact their knowledge of Islam is worse than that of Abu Juhal and Abu Lahab. Or than they are those who basically don't want to follow Islam so resort to these statements. Islam has entire social economic and justice system with state has prime responsibility to enforce those laws. If they fail than people have duty to get together and force Government to do its duty of enforcing Islamic Laws

And you'd agree if someone said the same thing about Hinduism or Christianity and shove it down the throat of local Muslims ?