Discuss PAK-IND air wars

[honour]

@ windj

Yaaar You always talk of wreckage proof..When you admitted yourself that IAF was offensive and attacking Pakistani areas continuously.....most of the wreckage of your planes were in your territory..which was easy to hide...but IAF fought in your areas that's why you easily display the wreckage of most of the IAF planes that it actually lost....

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Out of claimed 14 F104 6 fighters were lost way before 71 war...US arms embargo was applied right after 65 war...So in essense(as per PAF records) you kept 8 fighters in 71 war and lost only 2...So if PAF could have done with 8 fighters not sure what was so wrong with just 6 fighters later on...Make sense???

And how do you expect starfighters to be operational after sanctions of spare parts?

Did i claimed that??? The only fightet that had missiles fitterd in IAF inventory was MIG-21..It had K-13 which were scrapped after the war..it speaks a lot about its performance in 71 war..Doesn't it...whereas PAF had F-6, Sabres and F-104 fitted with Sidewinder....Do you see the difference???

According to Sipri arms transfer data base, IAF acquired 240+ Mig-21 of different variants from 1966-1973. Quite confident to say IAF had 150++ Mig-21 fighters equipped with superior R-13S/AA-2 Atoll which is equivalent to American AIM-9G.
Where as 72 Sabers 18 F-6 and 7 StarFighters were equipped with inferior Aim-9B which were end to self life.
I would have my money on 150+ Mig-21s rather then vintage Fleet.

The “advantage” of Sidewinder-armed Sabres was actually of very limited nature. The fact was that the PAF not only received a very limited number of AIM-9Bs, but that also the earliest surviving rounds were meanwhile nearing the end of their shelf-life. The first 60 Sidewinders were donated to Pakistan in 1964, at the same time all the PAF Starfighters were re-engined with J-79-GE-11 engines. A number of rounds was spent or lost during the 1965 War, so that afterwards the PAF faced an acute shortage of air-to-air missiles. It was not before March 1971 that another batch of some 150 AIM-9Bs was delivered. Nevertheless, once these arrived, the PAF technicians did their best to wire also 18 F-6s (six with each operational unit) for Sidewinders. This was a massive task, undertaken in rush during November 1971, with help of US technicians.

However your radars, communication system were from US and you were US ally from a long time...India due to so called NAM was not close to anybody however relations with Russia was improving...So saying that you were better equipped should not be a big surprise...Also so many times i had seen people here claiming how western equipments(radars, avionics) are better then ruskies...were standards different at that time?? Anyways i do not believe in trash and rely on credible sources..so let me get back to research...

Look. Pakistan and US had no such close relation ship as Isreal did.

Its only exaggerated fact by Indians that Pakistan received best equipments from US during 60s.

In fact if you do a bit more research you will find out India had long range and better radar systems then Pakistan.

a) China Factor
b) Better missile and more fighters fitted with them
c) Better communication system
d) Last but not the least combat fighter of around 650 made out to look 800+

a) What China factor? You think We did not have "Soviet" factor who actually threatened us to attack?
b) You have been proved wrong
c)

The IAF was considerably expanded and modernised since 1965, and by 1971 was a huge air force, boasting some 50 Squadrons – including transport and helicopter units – and over 80.000 officers, NCOs and soldiers. Between 1966 and 1971, it received a mixed force of around 740 Soviet, Western, and Indian-origin combat aircraft. By November 1971, some 656 of these were deployed with operational units. Each IAF combat unit should have had 18 fighter-bombers on strength and therefore the IAF could reach back on eight squadrons with some 144 MiG-21FL and MiG-21Us, six squadrons with 104 Su-7BMKs and 12 Su-7UMs, eight squadrons with 144 Gnats, six squadrons with 95 Hunter F.Mk.56s and T.Mk.66s (reported number of airframes as of 1971; other sources report up to 126 airframes in operational units), two Squadrons with some 36 HF-24 Maruts, two squadrons with 36 Mystére IVA, and five units with a total of 85 Canberra bombers of all versions. The reported mission capable rates were between 65 and 70%, and many IAF squadrons lacked experienced and qualified officers, so that the actual maximal number of aircraft the IAF could deploy at once was closer to 630. Nevertheless, the IAF had a sizeable attrition reserve, including up to 50 MiG-21s, 30 Su-7s, up to 15 HF-24s, perhaps as many as 30 Hunters, and at least 20 Mystére IVAs.

Where as PAF had alot of un air worthy aircrafts due to lack of spares and attrition.

17 Operational Starfighters including Jordanian during 1971 war.

The Pakistani fleet of some 50 surviving F-86F Sabres, of which 44 were operational, was reliable, but in an increasingly poor condition.

Pakistan therefore looked to China: just months after the end of the Kashmir War, on 24 November 1965, Islamabad and Beijing agreed a delivery of 72 Shenyang F-6.
Indonesia provided 20 additional (Soviet-made) MiG-19s, by 1971 – free of charge – thus bringing the total to around 90 airframes. Theoretically, this figure offered the PAF a significant attrition reserve. Actually, only three units were equipped with the type, and by December 1971 there were only some 54 intact F-6s and MiG-19s with the PAF, of which 48 were operational. Namely, the squadrons equipped with the type experienced very heavy attrition rates already during peace-time operations, so that the 20 F-6s delivered in 1971 were badly needed as replacements. Besides, there was a major problem with their gyro gun-sights, and – even more so – with their manufacturing quality: according to a first-hand account, every airframe was built for only some 30 flying hours and had to be overhauled subsequently, meaning that a considerable part of the fleet was permanently in deep maintenance. Consequently, each squadron had to have a considerable number of airframes in order to keep between 12 and 16 permanently in working condition.

Lacking numbers to match Indian numerical superiority, the residue F-86s were complemented by 90 Canadair F.Mk.6 Sabres. These were bought in 1967, by Iran - via a Swiss intermediary - from Germany, without a US end-user certificate (but probably with US convinience). The reported price of the total package was $10 million. Upon their arrival in Iran, the Imperial Iranian Air Force - which operated only a handfull of US-supplied F-86s at the time - plegded inability to overhaul them. For this purpose all the ex-German Sabres were sent to Pakistan - and they never came back. Instead, they were integrated into three PAF units, and by 3 December 1971 at least 88 remained intact, of which 74 were operational. A total of 48 of these were wired for Sidewinders: the PAF thus had a fleet of exactly 72 Sidewinder-compatible F-86F/Sabre F.Mk.6s.

The most important reinforcement – and the one considered the most dangerous threat by Indian pilots – arrived from France, where 18 Mirage IIIEP interceptors, three Mirage IIIDP two-seat conversion trainers, and three Mirage IIIRP reconnaissance fighters were acquired from Dassault. This was a considerably expensive acquisition, then the price for a total of these 24 fighters, their weapons and spares in the frame of the “Project Blue Flash One”, was $100 million – compared to only $10 million paid by Iran for German Sabres. But, Saudi Arabia financed this deal, and in the late 1960s

And roughly 18 B-57 bombers.

So in total, IAF operated 760 combat aircrafts including reserves vs 225 of PAF.

and they did...It is just we are not agreeing to it....As far as more Migs were lost we have different positions on this and yet to conclude...So far lets first close on F-104 vs Mig 21 saga...What say???

 

[Myth_buster_1]

but most of the sites claim jJordan donated the aircraft's to Pakistan
what about that....even Air Aviation claims this....i gave link earlier....which is from the same publications of Air enthusiast...

Dont repeat like a retard. Again if you keep posting with such a low standard of posting i will simply ignore you and wont even bother replying.
I have made it crystal clear in my posts that Pakistan received 10 Jordanian starfighters which were rarely used in combat because they lacked AIM-9B capability and 7 operational PAF Starfighters making a total strength of 17 f-104s.

 

[deckingraj]

Like i said. F-104 was never a dog fighter and that against a generation ahead Mig-21. Only 2 were lost due to enemy action.
The ratio was 2:0 in IAF Mig-21 favor no dough.
So much for your "neutral" link which is a copy past job of wikipeida.

Comon now...Lets not just debunk everyting by saying copy paste of wikipedia and what not...I have provided other links as well...

Lockheed F-104 Starfighter - History, Specifications and Pictures - Military Aircraft
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (Fishbed) - History, Specifications and Pictures - Military Aircraft

These two proves what we both are in agreement...i.e. Mig-21 outclassed F-104...

[3.0] F-104 In Foreign Service (2)

this one clearly says Jordan F-104 did see combat in 1971 and suffered significant losses...Now you and I can interpret what significant means....Pak had 8, Jordan had 10 and if Jordan F-104 were used then there were 18 F-104 in combat...so does 2(11%) losses amount to significant losses or 6(33%)???

Also just for your satisfaction i am quoting the sources where this claim is made...

# LOCKHEED F-104 STARFIGHTER by Steve Pace, Motorbooks International, 1992.

# "Lockheed F-104 Starfighter" by John Fricker & Paul Jackson, WINGS OF FAME, Volume 2 / 1996, 38:99.

# "Starfighter In Vietnam" by Warren Thompson, INTERNATIONAL AIR POWER REVIEW, Volume 12 / Spring 2004, 152:161.

# "The Last Starfighters -- Lockheed F-104s Of The Aeronautica Militaire Italiana" by Luigino Caliaro, INTERNATIONAL AIR POWER REVIEW, Volume 6 / Fall 2004, 172:181.

What rubbish?
Why do i have to repeat over and over again to make you understand?
SIPRI is perhaps the most accurate arms transfer data base.
During 71 War PAF operated 10 Jordanian Starfighters under a almost year loan contract which were returned back in 1972 and operated 8 of their own ex-USAF Star Fighters and total of 18.
However only 7 of PAF StarFighters were air worthy after US agreed for a shipment. So 17 Starfighters were operating in 71 war not 24!

I never chanllenged 24 vs 17 part...Care to provide me a single post where i did?? I infact went ahead with PAF version of 8 vs 12 F-104 that were Air Operations worthy before 71....B/w would you mind sharing your link about F-104's returned back to Jordan??? Also don't push me to believe what you are saying is correct...I have provided a link which is not copy paste by anybody however i am willing to read links in support of your argument...I have an open mind and will not shy away from saying that i was wrong but i need to be convinced... FAIR??

Their is no dough that India had claimed a kill of un operational starfighter that was un worthy of flying due to lack of spares.
Then again. If you go to Sipri site and in 1972 PAF transferred not 4 or 6 or 8 but 10 Star fighters back to Jordan.
So out of 17 operational Starfighters 2 were lost to enemy fire 10 were returned back to Jordan leaving with 5 operating Starfighter and 1 unoperational star fighter.
So when these "neutral" sources look at PAF F-104 figures they see PAF operated 17 star fighters and in the end were left with 5 operating and 1 unoperational starfighter and then they come up with a conclusion that PAF lost soooo many starfighters in 71 war.

Explained above..I in fact have provided neutral links(Lockheed being a source of Information)....You might have missed it...

Unfortunate for you, your analysts is wrong. Perhaps you are proved wrong again just like in Mirage-III topic.

Why unfortunate...If i am wrong i will end up learning something new...I am not scared or shy of being proven wrong..I am no God just a normal human....I am not sure what you mean by proved wrong as far as Mirag III is concerned...if you don't ming can you please point me to relevant post??? I do not recall it and there are tens of post to go through which i would like to avoid....

 

[Desertfalcon]

When did the PAF receive her Mirage III's? I would think they would have been as or more capable than the Starfighters.

 

[honour]

What rubbish?



Their is no dough that India had claimed a kill of un operational starfighter that was un worthy of flying due to lack of spares.
Then again. If you go to Sipri site and in 1972 PAF transferred not 4 or 6 or 8 but 10 Star fighters back to Jordan.
So out of 17 operational Starfighters 2 were lost to enemy fire 10 were returned back to Jordan leaving with 5 operating Starfighter and 1 unoperational star fighter.
So when these "neutral" sources look at PAF F-104 figures they see PAF operated 17 star fighters and in the end were left with 5 operating and 1 unoperational starfighter and then they come up with a conclusion that PAF lost soooo many starfighters in 71 war.

Unfortunate for you, your analysts is wrong. Perhaps you are proved wrong again just like in Mirage-III topic.

You dont behave like a retard....I m asking if you returned the F-104's in 1972 why most of the sites claim that the aircrafts were donated to pakistan and were not returned.......<Google it> except the sipri
moreover sipri site do not show any claim of Libya transfer of f-5/mirage nor Saudi transfer of f-86

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Comon now...

Read post # 182
I dont have to bother repeating samething over and over again. If you are open minded then you will accept the reality.

And Kindly go to this link. Trade Registers

Add Jordan as "supplier" and add Pakistan as Recipient then YEAR 1971-1972 and click download and you should be able to come up with the fallowing.

Pakistan 10 F-104A Starfighter Fighter aircraft 1971 1971 (10) Ex-Jordanian; loan (returned to Jordan 1972)

 

[Windjammer]

When did the PAF receive her Mirage III's? I would think they would have been as or more capable than the Starfighters.

The first Mirages started arriving in 1967, 24 Mirage-3s delivered before the war and 30 Mirage-5s soon after.

 

[Desertfalcon]

The first Mirages started arriving in 1967, 24 Mirage-3s delivered before the war and 30 Mirage-5s soon after.

Thanks. I had read that the Starfighters had a mixed record in 71', which I would expect. It really is not a dogfighter and was designed for high altitude point interception of Russian bombers. Still, at least from the records I have seen, the PAF got a couple of good kills with them but lost a couple as well, I believe to the Mig-21, an excellent fighter. I'm sure the Mirage III did much better against the Mig-21.

 

[Windjammer]

@ windj

Yaaar You always talk of wreckage proof..When you admitted yourself that IAF was offensive and attacking Pakistani areas continuously.....most of the wreckage of your planes were in your territory..which was easy to hide...but IAF fought in your areas that's why you easily display the wreckage of most of the IAF planes that it actually lost....

Buddy, can you show me one post where i claimed to that effect, read Indian version of the air war, according to which, most air battles took place over India. The gun camera snap of shooting the PN Atlantique was quickly splashed across the Indian papers yet not a single image of the supposedly half dozen F-104s hasn't surfaced.

 

[honour]

Dont repeat like a retard. Again if you keep posting with such a low standard of posting i will simply ignore you and wont even bother replying.
I have made it crystal clear in my posts that Pakistan received 10 Jordanian starfighters which were rarely used in combat because they lacked AIM-9B capability and 7 operational PAF Starfighters making a total strength of 17 f-104s.

listen you man first confirm with windj what is the fact...he says the planes reached Pakistan after the air war.....u say i was not used because it lacked aim-9B capability....

seems like u both are lost in the words/facts/truth/lies/fantasies/bs

 

[deckingraj]

And how do you expect starfighters to be operational after sanctions of spare parts?

The way F-16's were operational after santions of spare parts...By the way your buddy WindJammer has even gone to lengths saying that US offered more F-104's after 71 war and was declined by Pak....Believe me i want to agree with you but what you are not answering is that sanctions started in 65 and you had 8 operational F-104's...10 were given to you by Jordan....What happened right after 71???

According to Sipri arms transfer data base, IAF acquired 240+ Mig-21 of different variants from 1966-1973. Quite confident to say IAF had 150++ Mig-21 fighters equipped with superior R-13S/AA-2 Atoll which is equivalent to American AIM-9G.
Where as 72 Sabers 18 F-6 and 7 StarFighters were equipped with inferior Aim-9B which were end to self life.
I would have my money on 150+ Mig-21s rather then vintage Fleet.

Please share the link...As far as i know MIg-21 were fitted with K-13 which were inferior to Sidewinder fitted on F-6, Sabres anf F-104...Also K-13 was scrapped right after 71 war which proves IAF did not find missile was worth.....

Look. Pakistan and US had no such close relation ship as Isreal did.

Its only exaggerated fact by Indians that Pakistan received best equipments from US during 60s.

This is not true growler...You joined a pact with US and India due to its NAM had no pacts with anyone..It is common sense that during heights of cold war and strategic location of Pakistan with their proximity with China coupled with their tentions with Russia US would be nuts not to bestow their affinity towrds you...Here is a link

1950-1964: As the Cold War heated up, a 1954 security agreement prompted the United States to provide nearly $2.5 billion in economic aid and $700 million in military aid to Pakistan.

1965-1979: With the Indo-Pakistani hostilities in the late 1960s, the United States retreated. Between 1965 and 1971, the U.S. sent only $26 million in military aid, which was cut back even further to $2.9 million through the end of the decade. Meanwhile, economic aid kept flowing, totaling $2.55 billion over the 15 years. Everything came to a halt in 1979, however, when the Carter administration cut off all but food aid after discovering a uranium-enrichment facility in Pakistan. Pakistani leader Gen. Mohammad Zia ul-Haq refused $400 million, split for economic and military aid from President Jimmy Carter, calling it &#8220;peanuts.&#8221; The following year, he was rewarded with a much more attractive offer.

Newsweek&#8217;s View of U.S. &#8220;Aid&#8221; to Pakistan, 1950-2009 | America at War

P.S : Before debunking it please check the source of this link....

In fact if you do a bit more research you will find out India had long range and better radar systems then Pakistan.

I promise i will..However please do share few links from your side as well...



a) What China factor? You think We did not have "Soviet" factor who actually threatened us to attack?
No you did not...Russia never threatned to attack you...There threat was if China joined the war Russia would join it too...So ball was in your court...and in Fact US did tilted towards you and that's why those F-104's and other helps were pouring in...

b) You have been proved wrong

What??? How....atleast provide some links man...

Where as PAF had alot of un air worthy aircrafts due to lack of spares and attrition.17 Operational Starfighters including Jordanian during 1971 war. And roughly 18 B-57 bombers.So in total, IAF operated 760 combat aircrafts including reserves vs 225 of PAF.

We disagree on numbers...I am not challengind PAF combat numbers and will take your words on it...However IAF had only 650+...even then we have numnerical superiority but the disparity was not as big as you are portraying...I know that you have lot of knowledge then me but you are helping your case by providing me links so that i can correct/validate them...I hope in your next message you will do it...

 

[honour]

Buddy, can you show me one post where i claimed to that effect, read Indian version of the air war, according to which, most air battles took place over India. The gun camera snap of shooting the PN Atlantique was quickly splashed across the Indian papers yet not a single image of the supposedly half dozen F-104s hasn't surfaced.

ok lets say u r right then what about this....

The PAF almost exclusively flew defensive sorties with 61.5% of the overall effort and up to
70% excluding bomber, transport and recce sorties, being purely DCA sorties. The IAF in contrast, flew
an almost completely offensive air campaign ( 65.5% according to a serving PAF author or up to 80%
according to Indian sources )

source:Lt.gen shaukat/orbat.com


also...tell me then how can you show wreckage of so many planes.....

 

[Windjammer]

Thanks. I had read that the Starfighters had a mixed record in 71', which I would expect. It really is not a dogfighter and was designed for high altitude point interception of Russian bombers. Still, at least from the records I have seen, the PAF got a couple of good kills with them but lost a couple as well, I believe to the Mig-21, an excellent fighter. I'm sure the Mirage III did much better against the Mig-21.

The PAF only had seven Starfighters at the start of hostilities and was left with four at the end, two were lost in engagements with MIG-21s, one is believed to have suffered from firing malfunction, another was lost to ground fire and the F-104 scored six kills. Then the single Mirage III Squadron proved it's prowess by bagging 11 Indian aircraft without losing a single machine. There was no direct confrontation between the opposite deltas however when a pair of MIG-21s attempted to intercept a Mirage on a night recce mission, the MIG leader shot his own number 2 in mistake for the Mirage.

 

[deckingraj]

Read post # 182
I dont have to bother repeating samething over and over again. If you are open minded then you will accept the reality.

And Kindly go to this link. Trade Registers

Add Jordan as "supplier" and add Pakistan as Recipient then YEAR 1971-1972 and click download and you should be able to come up with the fallowing.

Pakistan 10 F-104A Starfighter Fighter aircraft 1971 1971 (10) Ex-Jordanian; loan (returned to Jordan 1972)

Thanks for sharing the link...It do say that F-104 was returned....But what about the Link that i provided??? The source is Lockheed themselves ...

WTF..man i thought atleast one can conclude this basic thing...Let me do more research...By the way do you have any other source who claims the same???