Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

While we discuss the scenarios we are missing the strike formations to account. I believe that is important and more important than fighter capabilities. My 2 cents

That's what I tried to make our Dr understand as well, since the strike packages includes escort fighters, which doesn't necessarily have to be the most capable fighters contrary to his belives. That's why the Su 30 or Mig 29s were used mainly for air superiority or surveillance roles, while smaller fighter like the M2K, Mig 21s were used in escort strike roles, using their own advantages. Just as LCAs in a2a config could escort fighters in strike config in future as a formation, while more capable fighters will be diverted for other roles. However that depends on the fleet of each operator. During Libya we had seen British EFs escorting Tornados, Mirage 2000-5 of France and Qatar providing escorts for Mirage or F16s and so on.

who is proven wrong let the readers decide atleast not us

Oh that's more than obvious buddy, you simply did everything to make that pretty clear.

 

[DrSomnath999]

That's what I tried to make our Dr understand as well, since the strike packages includes escort fighters, which doesn't necessarily have to be the most capable fighters contrary to his belives. That's why the Su 30 or Mig 29s were used mainly for air superiority or surveillance roles, while smaller fighter like the M2K, Mig 21s were used in escort strike roles, using their own advantages. Just as LCAs in a2a config could escort fighters in strike config in future as a formation, while more capable fighters will be diverted for other roles. However that depends on the fleet of each operator. During Libya we had seen British EFs escorting Tornados, Mirage 2000-5 of France and Qatar providing escorts for Mirage or F16s and so on.

& sadly against whom ????

Oh yeah you have a point for sure

equating there planes with their threat scenario with our similar planes with simliar threat scenario right.
typhoon = LCA mark1
LIBYA = Pakistan
p.s ( i knowingly didnt mention the name of eastern neighbour it would be way too much of sarcastic)

but surely sancho fault is mine i just cant understand that

Oh that's more than obvious buddy, you simply did everything to make that pretty clear.

what ever pleases you MY lord

all hail sancho
all hail sancho

CHEERS

 

[sancho]

but surely sancho fault is mine i just cant understand that

Of course it's your fault that you are in denial that IAF is doing that in every exercise at home and has been doing that in past wars. There's the bubble again!

 

[Dash]

That's what I tried to make our Dr understand as well, since the strike packages includes escort fighters, which doesn't necessarily have to be the most capable fighters contrary to his belives. That's why the Su 30 or Mig 29s were used mainly for air superiority or surveillance roles, while smaller fighter like the M2K, Mig 21s were used in escort strike roles, using their own advantages. Just as LCAs in a2a config could escort fighters in strike config in future as a formation, while more capable fighters will be diverted for other roles. However that depends on the fleet of each operator. During Libya we had seen British EFs escorting Tornados, Mirage 2000-5 of France and Qatar providing escorts for Mirage or F16s and so on.



Oh that's more than obvious buddy, you simply did everything to make that pretty clear.

I think we need to clarify a point here that air superiority is not about showing who is superior in air, but to to clear the ground hurdles to get a hassle free bombing at later part of the war? And that's the reason escorts fight the enemy fighters while strike fighters do the job striking the ground. so even though the MKIs Might 29 s are called air superiority fighters the actual job is done by escorts. They need to be small, agile and fast enough to cheat and beat opposing forces, the reason why 21s are famous.

In our case the MKIs have a better radar and data link and will use them to give positions of enemy fighters to the escorts.

 

[rockstarIN]

I think we need to clarify a point here that air superiority is not about showing who is superior in air, but to to clear the ground hurdles to get a hassle free bombing at later part of the war? And that's the reason escorts fight the enemy fighters while strike fighters do the job striking the ground. so even though the MKIs Might 29 s are called air superiority fighters the actual job is done by escorts. They need to be small, agile and fast enough to cheat and beat opposing forces, the reason why 21s are famous.

In our case the MKIs have a better radar and data link and will use them to give positions of enemy fighters to the escorts.

But they are quite short legged for a continuous fight at enemy territory.

 

[Dash]

But they are quite short legged for a continuous fight at enemy territory.

That was one of the reason going for a multirole fighter like Rafale.

 

[sancho]

I think we need to clarify a point here that air superiority is not about showing who is superior in air, but to to clear the ground hurdles to get a hassle free bombing at later part of the war?

No, it's about securing an area against enemy fighters, like the Mig 29s did for example in Kargil, by keeping F16s out. The ground attacks would be done by seperate missions, be it SEAD or later CAS missions, which can include escort fighters, which have only the task to secure the strike package.
We saw the same in Libya or Kosovo or Iraq wars too, where fighters in air superiority role were used to secure the no fly zone / airspace, while strike formations with dedicated escort fighters if necessary were used in seperated missions.

In our case the MKIs have a better radar and data link and will use them to give positions of enemy fighters to the escorts.

Exactly, that's why they remain in the air superiority role, where they can use their advantages to the max (flight performance, sensors, weapons), either to keep the airspace clear or to divert crucial radar data, while other fighters will be tasked to escort role.

But they are quite short legged for a continuous fight at enemy territory.

Escorts are not aimed for continous fight, but for protection and will not make the strike package vulnerable just to attack some enemy fighters. Not to mention that the escorts are used with light payloads only, therefor require less fuel for the same range than a the same fighter with heavy LGBs for example. For Pakistan or the border areas, most fighters hardly will use more than 2 fuel tanks. Mig 29 UPGs or LCA MK2 maybe even just a single one, because of the increased internal fuel. With improving mid air refuelling capabilities, the need of too many fuel tanks will be countered anyway.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Let me make everyone clear

escorts like MIG 21 (earliear) & LCA mk1 (current +future) role would be primarily used in tactical strike /CAS to troops that too in border areas only

The Tejas fighter's role in war | Business Standard News

they are not intended for escort in deep strike missions (High threat SEAD & Nuclear strike ) which rafale can do it with an adjacent rafale escort group or incase escort from SU30mki Super (with enhanced EW suite & slightly less RCS)
till FFGA come into picture later

This pic is from BR .com source about schematic roles in IAF in future which i have made

CHEERS

 

[DrSomnath999]

Did Germany Try To Sell Us A Lemon??


Fighter jet maker Eurofighter’s plans to sneak in through the backdoor looks set to backfire.




......
‘The possibility of the purchase of Dassault Rafale being cancelled at this advanced stage is extremely remote,’ said Rahul Bedi, veteran defence analyst for Jane’s Defence Weekly. ‘There is a never-exercised-before procedure under which India can, under very extreme and desperate circumstances, cancel the import of strategic equipment, but it is not likely to be invoked. Back-tracking on such a huge deal is also a question of India’s credibility and reliability.’

There are other, even more important reasons:

India would have to give adequate and acceptable reasons for cancellation. It would require tremendous political courage because a government that does so, would immediately come under attack from the Opposition for possible corruption.

Cancelling the deal now, would mean re-tendering. Even in the most optimistic of scenarios, a repeat of the entire procedure up to delivery of the aircraft could take up a further 20 years.

Given its urgent requirement and the growing regional security concerns, the Indian Air Force (IAF), which is satisfied with Dassault, is exerting huge pressure on the government to complete this deal so it can start flying the new MMRCAs as soon as possible.

If the Dassault deal is completed by 2015, the first aircraft will be delivered only in 2018 and the last in 2025. To tide over the wait even up to 2018, France has reportedly offered two of its own operational Dassault squadrons with immediate effect. This is a standard procedure which is good for pilots to train and get used to the new aircraft........


Did Germany Try To Sell Us A Lemon? | Swarajya


Lolling stuff about typhoon

CHEERS

 

[sancho]

Let me make everyone clear

escorts like MIG 21 (earliear) & LCA mk1 (current +future) role would be primarily used in tactical strike /CAS to troops that too in border areas only

Another 180, but at least you are learning.


@Abingdonboy

Don't have access to Jane's but this article also shows that a speed up in the integration of Brimstone to EF is considered:

UK reverses cuts to Tornado fleet to sustain Iraq air war

Key Points

• The requirements of the anti-IS bombing campaign have caused the UK to reverse its decision to disband the II Squadron in March in order to keep more Tornado aircraft in service for a further 18 months
• Additionally, the UK is looking to accelerate the integration of the Brimstone missile onto the Eurofighter Typhoon

UK reverses cuts to Tornado fleet to sustain Iraq air war - IHS Jane's 360


P.S. @jha

According to recent specs of the Gripen, the E/F seems to have increased it's weight much beyond the earlier claims of Saab. From 7.1ts it's seems to be up to 8t now, which leaves only a payload of hardly 5.1t contrary to the 6 or even 7ts Saab claimed in their PR. Will post more details in the appropriate thread later and tag you.

 

[sancho]

Crossposting from the MP forum (credits to olybrius)

 

[DrSomnath999]

Another 180, but at least you are learning.


.

thanks My lord

But still this post says for border areas only not for deep strike capabilties

Hmm
180=



CHEERS

 

[sancho]

But still this post says for border areas only not for deep strike capabilties

Exactly, just as I said throughout the whole earlier discussion, but you simply denied that and that LCA can even do escorts at all, just for the sake of denying and now you are saying exactly the same. But that explains things.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Exactly, just as I said throughout the whole earlier discussion, but you simply denied that and that LCA can even do escorts at all, just for the sake of denying and now you are saying exactly the same. But that explains things.

Did i really said that "LCA CAN EVEN DO ESCORTS AT ALL"

& did you really said that LCA can escort only for Tactical strike that too in border areas only ???

Hmm !!

i wonder who posted this post then in this thread before?

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 671

perhaps IAF officials also do agree with some of my points in that part even if i meant that for foreign land & they for
border areas

The Tejas fighter's role in war | Business Standard News

CHEERS

 

[Abingdonboy]

French firm to launch Indian earth observation satellite, move to boost gathering of intel

French space company Arianespace is scheduled to launch an Indian earth observation satellite (EOS) on December 4. It would contain an Electronic Intelligence System (ELINT) package that will boost New Delhi's capability to collect strategic intelligence in the neighbourhood.
While the ELINT satellite launched from French Guiana will act as a force multiplier for India's National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO), India has also asked French nuclear reactor supplier Areva to consider joining hands with Indian private sector to build steel pressure vessel forgings in order to supply pressurised reactors for 9,900 MW Jaitapur power plant in Maharashtra.
Both the issues were discussed at the 26th India-France Strategic Dialogue meeting on October 9 with Jacques Audibert, diplomatic advisor to French President Francois Hollande, meeting National Security Advisor Ajit Doval. Audibert also met Prime Minister Narendra Modi the next day.
At the meeting, both sides decided to speed up the Rafale Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal but a India-France proposal to produce short range surface to air missile was shot down by the Indian Air Force, which appeared to be in favour of DRDO developed Akaash medium range surface to air missile.
India and France have deepened cooperation in high technology, nuclear, space and intelligence areas. The ELINT satellite project was moved through NTRO in 2011 with both sides freezing technical classifications and parameter in 2013 strategic dialogue.[...]

More:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-...1-1274647.aspx


As pointed out by olybrius on Milphotos.net