Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Taygibay]

Yeah well, meanwhile, there are 9 Rafales over Iraq and 8 Tornados! The reason for which is :
"Air Commodore Andrew Lambert, a former air defence chief who commanded forces in Iraq, said : …
The Typhoons don’t have the capabilities to carry out the same role. To suggest they do is pie-in-the-sky."
RAF Tornado squadron in ISIS airstrikes was due to be disbanded | Daily Mail Online

Armée française - opérations militaires... - Armée française - opérations militaires OPEX (page officielle) | Facebook

Considering that the French government wants at least a year without planes ASAP to save money, If the MMRCA was signed before Christmas, the first Indian AC could be out of Mérignac before the end of 2015. Functional and all with only passage at HAL a couple years later to install the specific Indian components. Just saying'

And thnx Abingdon mate and Sancho about IDRW, I know, but once in a while you have to debunk such articles less the newcomers take them at face value.

Good day all, Tay.

 

[DrSomnath999]

...another typical example that shows how you jump around with your claims! You asked how Rafale did SEAD and which system was the key to do that mission and when the answer turned out to be different from what you expected, you jump to another issue (low obseravilty during the mission), which has nothing to do with your initial question.

Dear Sancho

time & again you have mentioned only those part of my POST meanwhile ignoring the other part which is attached to that part of my post to support your POV

if you plz correlate your earliear post & my post before yours

what i have asked earliear ??
which system was the key to do SEAD mission in LIBYA ??
The answer from your side was "AASM hammer was the only reason of it

BTW is this a System ?? are you making a fool of me or what .This is "weapon" not a system but you mentioned it as weapon system as a whole .Which i found to be really nonsense which is indeed not the answer which i have expected from you & as i expected ,it would have said SPECTRA system from your side but you aint




meanwhile my reply was" did SPECTRA system had nothing to do with it's" LOW OBSERVABILTY " which i was referring to it's
electronic jamming & situational awareness of all SAM threats .

but instead you portraying only "LOW obseravibilty part from my post in your replies which is wrong & totally a different thing as No way Rafale is low obseravble with those 3EFTS & Hammer missile complex .

And ironically
even SA-3 in kosovo war did manage to shot down F117 which was the only stealth fighter kill recorded in history , the very old sam which rafale did SEAD mission in LIBYA, so one can imagine rafale's fate if it simply rely on low observabilty to do it' SEAD mission.

Kosovo and the Continuing SEAD Challenge

infact if EA- prowler jamming capabilty had been used in an appropiate way it wouldnt have been shot down by SA-3 also

.
But to answer this question too, no low observability had no role in that mission, because the stand off range of AASM was enough to remain in safe distance to the air defences, that's why the attack reportedly was done from high altitudes, to gain maximum stand off range for the weapon and not from low altitude to be less observable. Please read up the following and understand the importance of AASM here:

Rafale News: Libya, AASM sead capability demonstrated (2)

The EW sensors and jammers were useful to detect and avoid air defences in any missions, just as DASS did it for the EF, but the key to do the SEAD attack mission was the AASM!

I am not saying AASM had no role in SEAD mission in lIBYA

as it's true AASM weapon was an important factor in SEAD mission & all those SA-3 & SA-6 sam missile ranges were in lesser range than hammer missile itself which was around 50km

but this is not true that SPECTRA EW suite jamming capabilty's role in rafale LOW obseravbilty had no importance during those sead mission

as SA-3 & SA-6 SAM radars were greater than 50 km range in detection even if their missiles were in range of 35-25 kms . that means they should have used RAFALE 's spectra system jamming to hide their radar signatures or else they should have alerted Libyan air force's MAN PADS (SHOULDER FIRED IR GUIDED MISSILES) to be active which they couldnt .



PLUS 1 more thing i like to say all launch were not made in high altitude at all .some were launched at low altitude also so that means they would have entered a little closer in range of their SAM missiles

so that means Rafale's Spectra 's capabilty made rafale help to evade SAM detection & to carry out SEAD missions accurately


So to say SPECTRA 's role in rafale's LOW obseravbilty had no role in those missions is indirectly saying
french are just making marketing B.S about Spectra role in LIBYAN sead Mission

View attachment 104598

Source: vayu aerospace report "The Mirage 2000+LGB= Victory"


Another of your desperate claims busted, but you surely will find a way to distract from this mistake too.

PLZ shoot the message not the poor messanger like myself

it's not my personal claim but various sources are claiming this that MIG 29 did provided escort to MIrage 2K in kargil war

The source which you have posted is a copy paste info from B.R .com articles i cant post the link as it is banned here .

Mirage 2k from 7th squadron did majority work of bombing only & that was major role of Mirage 2k in kargil war

But the fact is Mirage from 1st squadron only provided name sake escort as real functional escort was done by MIG 29 plus not only that it did locked on F16 during kargil war

http://1stfighterwing.com/IQT09212012/GT 1.1 v4.pdf

plus there are dozen of sources which claim MIG 29 did provided escort to MIRAGE2k

Russia Travel, Travel to Russia, Russia Hotels, Russia Tourism and Travel Information, Russia
Mikoyan-Gurevich Fulcrum Mig 29 - Top secret airplanesTop secret airplanes
Aviation: Mikoyan MiG-29 "Fulcrum"

But the best source is this

This source is the ultimate source of kargil war
http://carnegieendowment.org/files/kargil.pdf


Not only that MIg 29 did provided escort to canberra which were doing recce missions over Kargil

Kargil - Daily Progress Of Op Safedsagar - Vayu Sena

The main topic of discussion was according to you low obseravable planes were used in escorts which did nt happen with MIg 21 in kargil war

The fact is why Mirage 2k was used in escorts to Mirage 2k as they did have proper EW suite & self protection suite low obseravibilty is not enough

Indian Air Force in Kargil Operations

So dear sancho
I think this is time that this unneccessary argument on petty & offtopic issue should end for good of this thread

If you have anything related to rafale then plz discuss with me in this thread or else start a new thread on this issue i would post my opinion there not here

CHEERS

 

[DrSomnath999]

Things India & France needs to codevelop keeping Rafale in mind





1) New low cost & low size PGM like Spear3 with range of 140/150km for future SEAD missions / Anti armour missions







2) DIRCM for fighter size aeroplanes like Rafale/even indian FFGA with THALES

3) integrated avionics /working structure for joint functioning of INDIAN AURA UCAVS / french Neuron in rafale planes through it's cockpit in post 2020

Many more things are also there like HMD/ enclosed weapon pods /CFT/Conformal arrays

but these things which i meantioned would give rafale an edge in future combat for both the countries

BTW "why cant france share GaN tech with india" india should insist france to share that tech with us

CHEERS

 

[sancho]

.Which i found to be really nonsense which is indeed not the answer which i have expected from you & as i expected ,it would have said SPECTRA system from your side but you aint

See now you finally come out with the truth, but as I already told you, just because it's not the way you want it, doesn't make my statement wrong. Infact I explained you how it it was done and why the EF couldn't do the same mission, althout it had the same detection capability. I gave you credible sources to understand what's important and you still can't take it, keep distracting with F117 and Kosovo, posting unrelated pics again to distract, which have nothing to do with Libya the Rafale or EF. So no matter if you like it or not, THE FACT REMAINS, that the weapon system was the key to do or not do the mission!

PLZ shoot the message not the poor messanger like myself

I am not shooting the message, but you cheap claim that I provide wrong info, which totally went against you and now you trying get around it again as expected. And even if the article was very detailed, not only explaining the missions, how many and which fighters were used, from which squadron, how many sorties they did in which missions, you still still are in denial. And no it's not a copy of BR (not that it would make things less true), but based on the same infos and is even quoting IAF officers which took part in the missions, but when you are in denial it doesn't matter anyway right?

I think this is time that this unneccessary argument on petty & offtopic issue should end for good of this thread...or else start a new thread on this issue i would post my opinion there not here

May I remind you that I was the one that suggested to move the discussion to a PM conversation long ago, because you kept on with your distractions and claims to off topic areas and that I wanted to keep you away from exposing yourself more with false claims? But who rejected that and kept going on?

P.S A sincere request to you stop PM ing me & i would be rather embarassing myself indeed

So making a U-Turn now and asking for a seperate discussion is rather strange, but a propper discussion is evidently not what you want anyway.

 

[jha]

Go Rafale Go..

 

[sancho]

Yeah well, meanwhile, there are 9 Rafales over Iraq and 8 Tornados! The reason for which is :
"Air Commodore Andrew Lambert, a former air defence chief who commanded forces in Iraq, said : …
The Typhoons don’t have the capabilities to carry out the same role.

And since the Rafale lacks these capabilities too (Brimstone missile), the French Air Force would also use Tornados with that missiles over Rafales now if they had both fighters.

Dropping 250Kg LGBs can be done by Tornado, Rafale and EF
Launching Brimstone missiles can be done by Tornado only!

Considering that the French government wants at least a year without planes ASAP to save money, If the MMRCA was signed before Christmas, the first Indian AC could be out of Mérignac before the end of 2015.

We already know that the production of Rafale F3+ for French forces will go on till early 2016 with 4 out of 11 Rafales being delivered to them, while the rest and the whole lot of 2017 being reserved for export customers, be it Qatar or India. So 2016 is the earliest possible date for India anyway, but if Qatar orders them before us, French forces have to divert their fighters, to provide India the 2016/17 lot. But then again, we know that IAF requires credible changes and the longer the final selection of Rafale takes in India, the longer it will take to implement them, which might put the delivery further back.

 

[Taygibay]

The Brimstone is a unique little piece of kit and I'd be glad to see it on a Rafale but for now, the tool is the AASM 125.
Dernier tir de qualification réussi d'un AASM laser - Zone Militaire
which can do moving pick-ups pretty well.
As for the 2015 Rafales for France, I repeat that the government is quite ready to delay the sourcing to ADA & Aéronavale to save cash for other things like refueling MRTTs and the likes. Ask Halloweene next time he comes by, he had access to the same source I did.
Knowing Dassault's reactiveness, if MMRCA signed before Christmas, first Indian Rafale in 2015.

Good day all, Tay.

 

[sancho]

The Brimstone is a unique little piece of kit and I'd be glad to see it on a Rafale but for now, the tool is the AASM 125.

Not the AASM 125, but the new laser seeker which is already qualified in the 250 version. However both versions are too heavy for such kind of low collateral damage CAS, which is why even the French forces wanted Brimstone. So AASM is not an answer to the lack of that capability.

I repeat that the government is quite ready to delay the sourcing to ADA & Aéronavale

Which is meaningless, since the Rafales are build according to the requirements of the French forces and they don't fit to IAFs! That's why I said, they will only fit to Qatars if they would be diverted, but not to India.

2015 - 11 x for France (including naval versions)
2016 - 4 x for France (I guess including naval versions too) / 7 x for exports
2017 - 11 x for exports

Not sure how many of them would be naval version, but we talk about a total of around 30 fighters only, so even if some of the French fighters could be diverted to Qatar by 2015/16, the export production in 2016/17 would be shared between Qatar and India, which further delays induction of a full squad for IAF. So IAF is dependent on Qatar not getting their deal done before the MMRCA is fixed, otherwise they must wait even longer.

 

[Taygibay]

^^^
As usual, saying anything without reading just for the sake of answering!

Well, I'll leave you at it … but I am still glad that both my Air Force ( even with delivery delay )
and Dassault do not live in the alternate reality you provide to fit your shifting views.

Good month, Tay.

 

[帅的一匹]

Will IAF go for Rafale or not? J10b is flying all over the sky, where is the expected rival?

 

[sancho]

^^^
As usual, saying anything without reading just for the sake of answering!

LOL, which part didn't I read? I simply take official statements as more reliable than what people on a forum says based, which I told you that before. And the official point remains that, IAF has asked for different capabilities than the French forces and that the fighters can be delivered around 3 years after the contract is signed:

18.06.2013 - French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, said he is hoping France could make its first deliveries of the Rafale fighter aircraft to India between 2016 -2017.

Rafale Deliveries Could Begin in 2016-2017 | Defense Update:

28.05.2014...How about Qatar might choose a standard near the French Rafale. It is also very possible that France combines Qatar development of the unit as part of a larger and very close cooperation between the two countries...

...CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier had estimated that the first Rafale could be delivered to India three years after the signing of the contract...

Le Rafale de Dassault sur la piste d'envol au Qatar ?

18.08.2014...The 18 direct fly away aircraft are expected to be delivered in three to four years from the signing of the contract. The remaining 108 license manufactured aircraft in India are expected to be delivered during the following seven years.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Arun Jaitley in a written reply to Shri Ram Charitra and Shri Y.V. Subba Reddy in Lok Sabha today.

Print Release


This and the fact that the Rafale production line has it's limits, makes deliveries to export countries, not that easy as it seems, at least if the versions are different from what the French Forces wants.

 

[DrSomnath999]

See now you finally come out with the truth, but as I already told you, just because it's not the way you want it, doesn't make my statement wrong. Infact I explained you how it it was done and why the EF couldn't do the same mission, althout it had the same detection capability. I gave you credible sources to understand what's important and you still can't take it, keep distracting with F117 and Kosovo, posting unrelated pics again to distract, which have nothing to do with Libya the Rafale or EF. So no matter if you like it or not, THE FACT REMAINS, that the weapon system was the key to do or not do the mission!

GEEZ!!

truth about what ??? truth about why i found absurd your useless logic of equating a" weapon "with a "system" in your replies HuH!! plus you constantly twist someone's post to suit your POV like LOW obseravbilty meanwhile ignoring the
reason of rafale 's low observabilty due to which system which i have claimed
&that is the reason why i posted F117 & Kosovo thing which you have found as usual diversionary tactics

& not only that on top of it you portray people in the wrong way also like this below

as When did i say your statement is wrong about AASM but wrong is your useless POV that Spectra 's role in Low observabilty had no role in Libyan war in SEAD missions .That is another B.S you have posted in that reply which i have explained you & everyone why is it important ??

Rafale News: May 2011


meaninglessly you unneccessarily dragging Typhoon into the picture meanwhile ignoring the level of heaven & hell difference of EW capabilty & passive detection capabilty between SPECTRA & DASS .clearly depicted in all leaked reports.PLus Weapon cueing ability of PGM like hammer through spectra thanks to inferometric antennae in it's RWR none in DASS




If that the case then french would have used MIRAGE 2000D instead in libya which can also fire AASM hammer

I am not shooting the message, but you cheap claim that I provide wrong info, which totally went against you and now you trying get around it again as expected. And even if the article was very detailed, not only explaining the missions, how many and which fighters were used, from which squadron, how many sorties they did in which missions, you still still are in denial. And no it's not a copy of BR (not that it would make things less true), but based on the same infos and is even quoting IAF officers which took part in the missions, but when you are in denial it doesn't matter anyway right?

Which is indeed a fact & you have been doing earliear for sure in your previous posts but this time you got lucky as i didnt research properly about that claim.








Yeah you can do the usual job of yours i.e opportunistic scavanging of some one's wrong post meanwhile ignoring your own idiotic posting of lots of wrong infos in your previous posts which i have indeed debunked it previously

Meanwhile you can still continue doing your usual job of clever quoting only those wrong post of others meanwhile ignoring the good part which you can pounce upon on your fellow forumers .
i have no issues with it

The article which you posted indeed take refferences from B.R.com beleive it or not .The source content almost same

Plus you still turn a blind eye on why Mirage 2k was used as escorts with MIrage 2k not due to your prevoius claim of low observabilty but due to better EW & self protection suite

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 669

& fact still remains MIG 29 did the real escort job & Mirage 2K was a name sake escort plane in kargil war

May I remind you that I was the one that suggested to move the discussion to a PM conversation long ago, because you kept on with your distractions and claims to off topic areas and that I wanted to keep you away from exposing yourself more with false claims? But who rejected that and kept going on?

Pfft!

So you are now playing the saints role & i am the bad guy !!! aehh

You were the guy who keep on posting false claims about LOw observabilty in a 4th gen plane is vital in escort role in foreign land against a high tech adversary meanwhile ignoring proper EW & self protection suite alongside it


but when i did try to correct you took the refuge of PM & keep on quoting on the 1st place at the same time .becoz you didnt want me to correct your wrong claims inorder to save your face
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 669

& i can post the snipped pics of the message depicting the same date which you posted it but i wont as it is against ethics of foruming

But i didnt replied you in PM but through my post becoz i know your intentions why you PMed me
so i replied back this in my post in that thread only

if you really want me to back off then plz stop quoting my post .There is a thin line for me between patience / annoyance if we stretch too much on this topic

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 669

but you didnt & you keep on quoting my post after that also so this shows your true intentions about constructive discussion about rafale , which you didnt have in the 1st place

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions | Page 670

it is just becoz of our good ol relationship that i did maintain cool till this time if anyone else was there instead of you , the replies would be same but the manner would have been mixed with appropiate dosage of PA's & insults

So making a U-Turn now and asking for a seperate discussion is rather strange, but a propper discussion is evidently not what you want anyway.

U turn becoz
you should know very well the after effect of posting kargil war things in a pak forums in a rafale thread ,& what would be the result if pak members see those thing & would start replying with their aggresive posts
& the thread gets ruined

But still despite that you are asking such things "why U turn & separate discussions "?this shows your intention from the very beginning were Flame baiting & meanwhile pretending to be the saint among us

NICE

CHEERS

 

[sancho]

GEEZ!!

truth about what ???

That you simply can't admit that you talk nonsense, even if clearly proven wrong (often even by your own sources) and caught red handed to make cheap claims and distractions, you will remain in your bubble. The sad thing about it is only, that you collect all the infos and still live in such denial.

 

[Dash]

While we discuss the scenarios we are missing the strike formations to account. I believe that is important and more important than fighter capabilities. My 2 cents

 

[DrSomnath999]

That you simply can't admit that you talk nonsense, even if clearly proven wrong (often even by your own sources) and caught red handed to make cheap claims and distractions, you will remain in your bubble. The sad thing about it is only, that you collect all the infos and still live in such denial.

who is proven wrong let the readers decide atleast not us

& as usual you could have lectured the same good ol thing to me earliear also which should have ended the topic & could have saved our precious time for both of us but frustrating thing is you are doing it now.

really sad


CHEERS