Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Hello_10]

As per this news report on 27th december 2011, the present capacity is 12 per year, and IAF has asked it to be ramped up to 16 a year. This is the "envisaged" capacity.

HAL to Build 16 Sukhois Annually To Meet IAF Induction Plan - Defence Now

Janon I don’t know how old you but Im reading news on regular basis since early 90s, and I have interests in defence news since early 2000s. and I tell you that I found many times journalists give news on the basis of what someone tells them, without any deep research. While things also keep changing, like how we make different ‘claims’ but things don’t work in that way actually.

So, in place of discussing different claims, lets stuck with the things, (numbers), that is actually happening. I mean, I have a credible source in my post 6957 that this year IAF will get 21+12=33 SU30MKI and 9 Mig29k, a total of ‘42’ 4.5 gen aircrafts and you also have a news that IAF won’t get these aircrafts more than 15-16 this year. But I now have a news given below which states what exactly happened during last 2 years so we would predict on the basis on that. I mean, the rate of supply of these aircrafts would at least be said to be the same as that of last 2 years, isn’t it?

As of June 2009

HAL had assembled 42 MKIs from the total order of 140 to be assembled by the end of 2012.
As of December 2009, the IAF was operating five Su-30MKI squadrons, with two squadrons flying HAL assembled aircraft.


As of June 2010

HAL had delivered 74 of of the 140 aircraft on order. It delivered 23 Su-30MKI in 2009 and is expected to deliver 28 in 2010. Three aircraft from the follow-up order for 40 placed on Russia had been delivered by December 7, 2009. Delivery of the remaining is expected to be completed by 2011-12.

A total of two aircraft were lost in crashes on 30 April 2009 and 30 November 2009.


As of March 2011

Out of the total 180 aircraft, 99 aircraft have been delivered till 2010-11.

Su-30MKI Acquisition and Upgrade - Indian Defense Projects Sentinel

Note:

The IAF decided to procure from Russia 230 Sukhoi aircraft, 50 of them in fly-way condition and the rest to be produced under licence by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which has by 2010-11 delivered 99 of the 180 aircraft. Last month, India decided to acquire 42 additional aircraft.
The Hindu : States / Other States : Air Chief flies SU-30 to restore confidence in pilots

(this means IAF currently has at least 50+99-3='146' SU30MKIs, supplied till March 2011, with supply rate of 30+ MKIs per year. with hopefully at least 6-7 Mig29k per year also with )

Note: HAL assembled ‘42’ MKIs till June 2009, delivered ‘74’ till June 2010 by rate of 32 per year, and could delivered ‘99’ till March 2011 by rate of 25 for 9 months means 33 per year. means they are maintaining 32-33 per year delivery rate of MKIs so we hope total number of SU30MKIs would touch 179 by March2012

 

[ptltejas]

Now if HAL upgrade d version that shall delay as those model fkrst upgraded and then production will taken in hand. Think so

 

[Archie]

Janon I don’t know how old you but Im reading news on regular basis since early 90s, and I have interests in defence news since early 2000s. and I tell you that I found many times journalists give news on the basis of what someone tells them, without any deep research. While things also keep changing, like how we make different ‘claims’ but things don’t work in that way actually.
So, in place of discussing different claims, lets stuck with the things, (numbers), that is actually happening. I mean, I have a credible source in my post 6957 that this year IAF will get 21+12=33 SU30MKI and 9 Mig29k, a total of ‘42’ 4.5 gen aircrafts and you also have a news that IAF won’t get these aircrafts more than 15-16 this year. But I now have a news given below which states what exactly happened during last 2 years so we would predict on the basis on that. I mean, the rate of supply of these aircrafts would at least be said to be the same as that of last 2 years, isn’t it?



Note:

(this means IAF currently has at least 50+99-3='146' SU30MKIs, supplied till March 2011, with supply rate of 30+ MKIs per year. with hopefully at least 6-7 Mig29k per year also with )

Note: HAL assembled ‘42’ MKIs till June 2009, delivered ‘74’ till June 2010, and could delivered ‘99’ till March 2011.

As of September 2011 , Indian Airforce operated 159 Su30MKI , and in November , the number of Su30MKI finally exceeded the number of Mig21Bis/Bisons thanks to the retirement of No.17 Sqd flying 16 Mig21Bis , which left India with a fleet of 155 Mig21Bis/Bisons against a fleet of 163 MKI

 

[Hello_10]

As of September 2011 , Indian Airforce operated 159 Su30MKI , and in November , the number of Su30MKI finally exceeded the number of Mig21Bis/Bisons thanks to the retirement of No.17 Sqd flying 16 Mig21Bis , which left India with a fleet of 155 Mig21Bis/Bisons against a fleet of 163 MKI

thats what the numbers says, 146 MKIs by March 2011 so hopefully 179 by March 2012

 

[Hello_10]

As of September 2011 , Indian Airforce operated 159 Su30MKI , and in November , the number of Su30MKI finally exceeded the number of Mig21Bis/Bisons thanks to the retirement of No.17 Sqd flying 16 Mig21Bis , which left India with a fleet of 155 Mig21Bis/Bisons against a fleet of 163 MKI

That’s why I said that IAF would delay MMRCA by at least 1-2 years and try to become a partner of Rafale program as I find Rafale’s manufacturers in the position to accept any condition to get this 126 MMRCA which may be extended to 189 + 40 for IAC2 also, and MMRCA publicity may help Rafale to get more customers worldwide also otherwise Rafale doesn’t have any customer right now and it will die if they don’t get this MMRCA.

even Mig29Ks are fit in comparison with Pakistan’s top gun F16 block 52 which they have just 18 right now and Chinese top gun J10s are not as good as F16s block 25, and their J10B is still under testings. While IAF’s current SU30MKIs are said to be ‘+’ superior to these top guns of Indian neighbours.

Remember, now SU30MKIs are being upgraded to Super Sukhoi with stealth features, J10s to J10b, and Su35 to Su35bm, so if IAF delays MMRCA for 1-2 years then Rafale may also be offered with a more powerful AESA radar with all those stealth features for what J10s, SU30MKIs, SU35s are being upgraded. And if IAF is getting at least 32-33 SU30MKIs and around 9 Mig29k per year, with hopefully putting IAS Vikramaditya loaded with Mig29k in company of INS Virat also in Arabian sea by 2012 end, then there is no reason why IAF can’t wait for 1-2 years for a 'best deal' for 126 MMRCA, for a best 4++ aircraft of it’s generation with low price also

(And one more advantage we have with Rafale is, it has a running production line and 60+ Rafale are already working in French military so even if IAF sign deal for Rafale after 1-2 years, in 2013, the first batch of 18 Rafale can be delivered by 2014 with home made delivery starting by at least 2016, (as compare to proposed 18 MMRCA by 2013 with starting it’s production in India by 2015.) as, Eurofighter is also still developing AESA radar and can't stick with it’s promises until they get 3-4 years to upgrade EFT. Then why not engage Rafale also for its best version including stealth features etc also like Su35bm/ Super Sukhoi?)

 

[Hello_10]

Google Übersetzer

I tell you how IAF thinks, that is, even if SU30MKIs are the best aircraft of IAF, upgraded 2 Mirage2000-5 mk2 which are supposed to return from France this year, will finally get responsibility of nuclear weapon delivery, if required. (no wonder why Mirage2000N, a version of Mirage2000-5 mk2, is the aircraft which has nuclear weapon responsibility for France.) After many tests including during Kargil war, IAF finds French aircrafts very reliable for any very specialised operation. The way IAF swear for Mirage2000, they would only buy Rafale, the successor of Mirage2000. France just needs to be able to talk IAF in a right way to get this MMRCA deal

 

[Sadhu]

Yup but French are a rip off when it comes to maintainance, upgradation And Weapons purchase

 

[Hello_10]

Yup but French are a rip off when it comes to maintainance, upgradation And Weapons purchase

I have said many times, “If you switch from one option to another one, you lose something. If Rafale will have some issues then same for EFT also and the ‘Fittest’ option is what you are looking for MMRCA. and Yes Rafale is a much proved and tested aircraft than EFT.” IAF would go for only Rafale, if they have to chose one from Rafale and EFT. More delay would mean IAF is in negotiations for those unknown terms of MMRCA which will come in light after few years………….

 

[tvsram1992]

Yup but French are a rip off when it comes to maintainance, upgradation And Weapons purchase

But the best thing with French is throw money and do any thing u want . They give access to carry nukes and they dont bow before uncle .

 

[janon]

Janon I don’t know how old you but Im reading news on regular basis since early 90s, and I have interests in defence news since early 2000s. and I tell you that I found many times journalists give news on the basis of what someone tells them, without any deep research. While things also keep changing, like how we make different ‘claims’ but things don’t work in that way actually.

So, in place of discussing different claims, lets stuck with the things, (numbers), that is actually happening. I mean, I have a credible source in my post 6957 that this year IAF will get 21+12=33 SU30MKI and 9 Mig29k, a total of ‘42’ 4.5 gen aircrafts and you also have a news that IAF won’t get these aircrafts more than 15-16 this year. But I now have a news given below which states what exactly happened during last 2 years so we would predict on the basis on that. I mean, the rate of supply of these aircrafts would at least be said to be the same as that of last 2 years, isn’t it?



Note:

(this means IAF currently has at least 50+99-3='146' SU30MKIs, supplied till March 2011, with supply rate of 30+ MKIs per year. with hopefully at least 6-7 Mig29k per year also with )

Note: HAL assembled ‘42’ MKIs till June 2009, delivered ‘74’ till June 2010 by rate of 32 per year, and could delivered ‘99’ till March 2011 by rate of 25 for 9 months means 33 per year. means they are maintaining 32-33 per year delivery rate of MKIs so we hope total number of SU30MKIs would touch 179 by March2012

You are confusing issues here. My post was about HAL's production capacity. Your source in post 6957 was talking about the number of MKIs we will get from Russia.

Now in this post you have a website claiming that HAL delivered 23 MKIs in 2009. What I suspect is that these include the fighters assembled from semi knocked down kits from Russia, and once HAL has started producing them from scratch, the rate has gone down. This is pure speculation on my part, for the reason that we have had a slew of reports about IAF asking HAL to ramp up production rates to 16. Also note that no source is given in the website you quoted for these figures - newspaper sources are quoted for all other figures, which means that the author there too relies on newspaper reports, just like us.

So I think it comes down to which sources we deem to be credible and which we don't.

 

[sancho]

Note: HAL assembled ‘42’ MKIs till June 2009, delivered ‘74’ till June 2010 by rate of 32 per year, and could delivered ‘99’ till March 2011 by rate of 25 for 9 months means 33 per year. means they are maintaining 32-33 per year delivery rate of MKIs so we hope total number of SU30MKIs would touch 179 by March2012

And there is the mistake in your calculation, because the production rate does not include the fighters that were assembled by HAL, but produced by IRKUT!
Also the initial plan was, to produce 140 fighters till 2015 (not 2012 like you said), with the additional 42 the production line will go on till 2017 and then will take over the FGFA production. The source Janon provided is is the most realistic one and fitting to official statements of MoD too.

However, this has no relation to MMRCA so lets stick to topic again!

The way IAF swear for Mirage2000, they would only buy Rafale, the successor of Mirage2000. France just needs to be able to talk IAF in a right way to get this MMRCA deal

But IAF is not deciding MMRCA, MoD will and therefor certain other requirements has to be fulfilled as well. Be it the industrial side, the financial side or even certain political points that usually will be included in such deals and that's why the EF has it's chances to win MMRCA too.

Btw, delaying MMRCA to get a partnership on Rafale makes no sense, because that increased the chances that other countries buys it. With UAE and Brazil Dassault has 2 very good options for a sale in pretty decent numbers and hardly any real competior, the only issue in both competitions is the price negotiation.
So if we wanted to be a partner of Rafale, we had to speed up things instead of delaying them and try to be the launch customer!

 

[StrikeForce]

^^^
So in short it doesn't look like US will take over Russia and one of the biggest reason is lack of trust among the two nations. Israel is another big seller but most of the israeli project and consultancy are behind the back doors, so we won't really find out how many billions of defence trade going on between these two nations.

India is no doubt a largest importer of Israeli defence products. However their defence products are more of supplementary like AWACS , SPYDER Dome, Barak Missiles, UAV's which usually cost less than the major deals like Fighter Jets, Aircraft Carriers, Submarines which cost quite a fortune of Indian defence budget.

India slowly but steadily started US defence deals and It will be interesting to see how the defence deals will go with US in the coming decade. However on surpassing our defence deals with Russia, I really doubt that.

 

[ptltejas]

Rus is ultimate tech country. He is friend without condition like US. Rus never stop supplying extra tech to India we need better collobration of both countries for reducing cost and include advance tech.

What shall be tomorrows war and what to do is required to decide today. Missiles will take imporatant role. With Awacs and fighters in the sky. There shall not be single direction attack but possibly multiple direction attack.

 

[ptltejas]

I think no need many small UAV with that U-2 like which cover big area.

 

[sancho]

Samtel poised to take off with air force fighter fleet

...Thales' offset liability from the Mirage upgrade contract amounts to euro 441 million (Rs 3,000 crore). That induces Thales to source from SDS a significant share of the avionics (aviation-electronics) for upgrading the Mirage-2000. SDS, with whom Thales has a joint venture company, Samtel Thales Avionics, is poised to meet that requirement. SDS already supplies Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), India's sole aircraft manufacturer, with cockpit displays (multi-function displays, or MFDs) for the Sukhoi-30MKI fighters that are built at HAL's Nashik plant. The Ghaziabad-based company is also competing to build avionics for the IAF's forthcoming Sukhoi-30 MKI upgrade.

And, if the Rafale fighter — built by Dassault with a large avionics component from Thales — is chosen by the MoD as the IAF's new medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), SDS could benefit enormously from another wave of offset-driven orders for display systems and other avionics in the 126 MMRCA...

...An example of the futuristic avionics that SDS hopes to supply is the Infra Red Search and Track (IRST) System, standard kit in the Rafale as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon. This passive sensor detects enemy aircraft at ranges of 60-70 kilometres through the heat (infrared) they emit. Unlike a fighter's airborne radar, which gives away one's own position by emitting an electronic beam, an IRST is entirely stealthy, since it emits nothing.

Thales plans to offer the IRST to the IAF on a ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ basis. This category of procurement (specified in the Defence Procurement Procedure of 2011, or DPP-2011) requires an Indian partner to absorb critical, high-end technologies and develop capabilities within India. Thales has told the IAF that Samtel Thales Avionics would do 50 per cent of the design and development work in India...

Samtel poised to take off with air force fighter fleet

- we have the Kaveri - Snecma co-development based on Rafales M88
- Rafale is offered in MMRCA with full ToT of RBE 2 AESA radar + source codes
- an IRST co-development is offered based on FSO
- Samtel already produces the Topsight HMS due to the JV with Thales
- MBDA France is (most likely, recent news wasn't that good) co-developing Maitri SAM, based on MICA missile

Nice package, although my favourite part is still missing, SPECTRA. :wink:


Recap:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-...f-rafale-mmrca-shortlist-131.html#post1951508