Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Hello_10]

Logically you are right, However technically LCA,FGFA or PAK-FA,AMCA are not in immediate production line and any delays would hit our minimal defence requirement of 42 Squadrons in jeopardy as against current 29 Squadrons.

And our aging Bison needs immediate retirement as well by atleast 2017. Then there will be large vacuum in IAF fighters numbers. And this is why our MMRCA deal is mandatory. Though there is cost involved, C'mon which defence deal works out cheaper.

India's upgrades had a real long delays so far and should not be anymore. National security is atmost importance and the money spent to defend it worth every penny than living in insecurity

Sir, if you try to understand what I said then, I mean to say that if you get full tech transfer for EFT, or, with full tech transfer if you can get partnership with Rafale also, and if you may keep per piece price to even around $120mil also, then you would sign this deal by tonight. And even if you may agree any of these suppliers close to what I proposed then also don’t miss this chance.

IAF need aircrafts and they are getting 25 to 30 SU30MKIs every year and also 5 to 6 Mig29k per year (an estimate only with proposal of delivery of total 270 MKIs by 2015 and45 Mig29k by 2014). And even China doesn’t have too many 4th gen aircrafts, hardly around 500 in total with only 200 J10s are credible as rest of Su27s, J11s and SU30s need upgrades. On other side Pakistan has only around 60 F16s with only 24 of block52, with 40 Jf17s only. and as your SU30MKIs, Mirage2000-5 mk2 and upgraded Mig29s are superior to any of the Chinese aircraft then, you would have something in agreed with post 6921, I replied? And I want you to sign the ‘best deal’, as paying around $18bn to $20bn for just 126 aircrafts would mean it. You do have 2-3 years to bargain with your best for either EFT or Rafale, I think.

 

[Hello_10]

Thanks Bro.

However as our squardon reducing and as our old fleet of mig 21, 27 Jaguars required to retired. Hell with plane but why to loss costly pilot in accidents.

AMCA is also dream at distance. Whatsoever but change mig 21 immediately. Lca must take speed to replace them.reduce cost in mmrca is great thinking thanx bro.

India is using SU30MKIs since 2002, from 30 in beginning to 146 till the end of 2011. And during this time, they lost 3 aircrafts. This way if we assume an average of 70 aircrafts in service in between 2002 to 2011 then we find IAF is losing around 1 in every 200 SU30MKI aircrafts every year. While Pakistan just lost one JF17 and they are using 40 JF17s since last 1.5 years which means it has crass rate of around 1 in 100 aircrafts per year. (I would encourage you to come with other comparison also.)

So, if you are going to operate 146 to 270 SU30MKIs in between 2012 to 2020 then you would expect at least 20 crashes till 2020, leaving around 250 only till 2020. So, IAF would go for at least 50 MKIs more to have the number around 300 by 2020, 270 by 2030, 240 by 2040, and at least 200 MKIs by 2050.

I heard even Super Hornet crashed last year. So, be like a man and ready for few losses on time to time. Don’t you lose 20 to 40 military personnel on Siachen Glacier every year, just to hold that strategic place, we do face losses on time to time.

 

[janon]

^^
If you are adding the indian navy's mig 29k into the equation, you should know that the People's liberation army navy airforce (I just love typing that out - it is the official name of their naval aviation wing) has around 250+ combat aircraft in its inventory.

The LCA mk2 is not going to begin production in 2015 as you claim in post #6928. We would be lucky to see its first flight by then, or to have mk1 being mass produced by then.

We are NOT getting 25-30 sukhois a year, the number so far has been close to 9 overall, and under present capacities, is 14 per year. It has been reported that the present order will only be fulfilled by 2018 from HAL's side.

We are definitely not getting 5-6 mig 29Ks a year, the number is a lot more sobering, and in any case it doesnt matter, since we are only discussing the IAF.

Before your post, I had showed that with all those things you quoted, adding up all those numbers, we would still be short of China's air combat capable capable fighters by about 500. True, all of those 500 are earlier generation fighters, but we are still talking about a HUGE numerical superiority. 189 cutting edge MRCAs would definitely help bring that gap down, and make sure that the IAF can stand its ground (or is it air?) against the PLAAf, and defend Indian airspace or even have reasonable offensive capabilities. A two front war is still questionable.

20 billion is for 189 MRCAs, not 126. And including weapons, and learning all the technology, and manufacturing them here, and jump starting our nascent aerospace sector, and with 50 percent of the money being spent in India. I feel it is a good investment.

About the crashes, I'm pretty sure you know he wasn't talking about the sukhois, but about the mig 21s.

 

[Hello_10]

At least that's the plan and taking the maximum range as the only important spec of a missile is a mistake anyway, since nobody will fire a BVR missile at maximum range because of the no escape zone. Another point why Astra might replace R77s are the issues with the service life and quality of certain parts. Might also be a reason why IAF went with integrating Derby for LCA instead of R77.


Besides all the baseless rumors and unnamed sources in the reports of last week, we now interestingly have Serge Dassault and the IAF Chief stating that something happens in the next 2 weeks. I just hope the earlier meant the MMRCA!

Sancho, I find you supporting Rafale so I may give you few points which you sometime don’t mention. I told you one day that “if you gain something on one point then you lose something on other point at the same time.” So, you will always lose something if you switch from one option to another one and the fittest option is what you are in need for MMRCA. I find you discussing small small technical terms, for what we are not qualified, and also technologies keep changing on time to time. But few bottom line points to support Rafale are as below:

1: France was the only Western country who didn’t support sanctions on India during 1998 nuclear tests. So, France with Russia were only qualified as a Reliable Suppliers for MMRCA deal. Don’t forget, if India will ever do nuclear test in future, the European powers are different but even country like Australia will straight put bans on India. And importance of a reliable supplier is always more than a reliable arm.

2. full tech transfer is possible for Mig29VOT/ Mig35 and Rafale only as both are made by single manufacture only, (the non US aircrafts), and with experience of Mirage2000 and Russian aircrafts, its believed that these two countries, Russia and France, would be happy to transfer full techs of both the aircrafts. None of the rest of Western suppliers would transfer the full techs.

3. one day I talked to a supporter of upgrade of Mirage2000H, why to pay $3.9bn to upgrade old 51 Mirage2000 while even new Super Hornet were delivered to Australia for $79.5mil with loaded with missiles last year? Then he answered, if Turkey need to buy MRCA then they would go for F16s block 60 with AESA radar for around $80mil only, and if Australia need it then they would go for Super Hornet with AESA radar, but if India wants the same, then paying around $77mil for even upgrade of old Mirage2000, without AESA radar, is also “good”. As, you just need a good pilot and either of Mirage2000, F16s and Super Hornet can do the similar works and India has very good experience on Mirage2000. Hence, IAF first tried for Mirage2000-5 mk2 for MMRCA till 2007, until its production line was running, and if the same manufacture is offering a ‘better’ one for multi role operation then you would go for Rafale only. He said, MMRCA has only two option, first Mig29VOT/ Mig35 which may do every work competently and economically, or, if you want to pay the twice price for a better one then go for Rafale only which has infrastructure of Mirage2000, means easy to induct and known platform for IAF.

4. Rafale is not only claimed to be a better multi role aircraft than Mirage2000-5 mk2, (as claimed by its manufactures when they closed production line of Mirage2000), but IAF is so much impressed with Mirage2000 that they were considering only Mirage2000-5 mk2 for MRCA deal till 2007, when its production line was closed. and also Rafale always impressed SU30MKIs pilots during air shows for air superiority roles. So Rafale is a quite balance aircraft for both a2a and a2g operations, and as you are looking for a Multi Role Combat aircraft, not a primarily air superiority aircraft like SU30MKIs, Rafale is better suited than EFT.

Rest, upgrades will continue with aircrafts and more you delay, better the aircraft will be on offer, its true as per the post 6921 also. so, just few bottom line points are enough to select Rafale for MMRCA, if not Mig35. and also, it would be the best option for IAC-2 which will come in operation by 2020/22, Rafale the one aircraft for both IAF and IN.

 

[Hello_10]

^^
If you are adding the indian navy's mig 29k into the equation, you should know that the People's liberation army navy airforce (I just love typing that out - it is the official name of their naval aviation wing) has around 250+ combat aircraft in its inventory.

The LCA mk2 is not going to begin production in 2015 as you claim in post #6928. We would be lucky to see its first flight by then, or to have mk1 being mass produced by then.

We are NOT getting 25-30 sukhois a year, the number so far has been close to 9 overall, and under present capacities, is 14 per year. It has been reported that the present order will only be fulfilled by 2018 from HAL's side.

We are definitely not getting 5-6 mig 29Ks a year, the number is a lot more sobering, and in any case it doesnt matter, since we are only discussing the IAF.

Before your post, I had showed that with all those things you quoted, adding up all those numbers, we would still be short of China's air combat capable capable fighters by about 500. True, all of those 500 are earlier generation fighters, but we are still talking about a HUGE numerical superiority. 189 cutting edge MRCAs would definitely help bring that gap down, and make sure that the IAF can stand its ground (or is it air?) against the PLAAf, and defend Indian airspace or even have reasonable offensive capabilities. A two front war is still questionable.

20 billion is for 189 MRCAs, not 126. And including weapons, and learning all the technology, and manufacturing them here, and jump starting our nascent aerospace sector, and with 50 percent of the money being spent in India. I feel it is a good investment.

About the crashes, I'm pretty sure you know he wasn't talking about the sukhois, but about the mig 21s.

we two are in between 'cliams'. Im on the best possible delivery side of SU30MKIs and Mig29ks and you are talking about the worst case senario........

I talked about SU30MKI as it will be the aircraft in use for you in future, time of Mig21s is gone, they did their duties good even in 1971, but over 40 years have passed since then……..

And if you may get 189 for $20bn then don’t delay and sign this deal as soon as you can. (but check again, right now you are dealing for 126 aircrafts only and news suggest cost varying for them from $15bn to $20bn for 126 aircrafts only.) And also here, Rafale is in production while EFT need to be upgraded till 2015 before it may come in production, like they still haven’t developed AESA radar. First 18 Rafale can be delivered from France by 2013 also. so I would bet for Rafale. thanks

 

[janon]

we two are in between 'cliams'. Im on the best possible delivery side of SU30MKIs and Mig29ks and you are talking about the worst case senario........

I talked about SU30MKI as it will be the aircraft in use for you in future, time of Mig21s is gone, they did their duties good even in 1971, but over 40 years have passed since then……..

And if you may get 189 for $20bn then don’t delay and sign this deal as soon as you can. (but check again, right now you are dealing for 126 aircrafts only and news suggest cost varying for them from $15bn to $20bn for 126 aircrafts only.) And also here, Rafale is in production while EFT need to be upgraded till 2015 before it may come in production, like they still haven’t developed AESA radar. First 18 Rafale can be delivered from France by 2013 also. so I would bet for Rafale. thanks

No, I'm talking about the real scenario that exists, not the best or worst possible one. There are no plans to increase that capacity. And don't add the mig 29Ks unless you want to count about 250 fighters of the PLANAf.

 

[sancho]

Sancho, I find you supporting Rafale so I may give you few points which you sometime don’t mention...

I agree with you on these points, but not on PLAAFs fleet because you highly underestimate them!

J10A - a good design in the single engine medium weight class, with propper 4th gen capabilities and that is the actual low end of PLAAF for the next decades!
J10B - which you missed is coming in soon and as I often said, probably the biggest threat for IAF, because it will have 4.5 gen capabilities, is cost-effective and therefore will be deployed in numbers. Especially with Chinas capability to produce fast and in high numbers, this will be a big problem, but it's by far not the only one!
Su 27SK - which you downplaid by saying it's old, but exactly you should know how capable these beast are in the air superiority role and PLAAF didn't left them the way they were at the begining. They were modernsed through the years and not to forget that most of their Flankers uses the same Russian weapons as IAF does.
J11 - a clone, but a way more capable one, multi role capable, estimated with a lower RCS and modern 4th gen features too.
Su 30 - not old at all, because they were procured around the same time IAF got the first Flankers too and they also were upgraded during the years

Only because the MKI has some technological advantages, doesn't mean these Flanker versions and the J10s are way less capable. They all are very good fighters and IAF has only a few squads of MKIs to defend the north eastern borders, because the M2K and Mig 29SMT are aimed on PAF.
Combined with the delays in the LCA development, it should be more than obvious why a foreign fighter procurement was needed to beef up the eastern defence and why just sitting there and waiting for FGFA to arrive (which is just a paperplane so far) at the end of the decade is simply not realistic. The Mirage 2000-5s would have been the perfect stopgap fighter, but MoD had different plans and now we get more costly but also more capable fighters and IAF will defenitely won't wait more years for them!

PLAAF has a very capable fleet and especially the lower end might be more capable than ours, I would have loved if we had gone with the LAVI design or a single engine medium class fighter instead of LCA, because it's a more capable platform. With the experience of AL 31 licence production and a possible FGFA coming in future, it would also hade made much sense at the engine development side.
However, the Chinese went the right way and all what may limit J10 is, that they have to develop anything on their own + some Russian help, compared to the options we have and that's why even with huge defence budgets, they face similar problems as we do (indigenous engine developments for example).
That's another reason why I prefer the ready developed and proven Rafale that can be fast and easy inducted into IAF, compared to an EF that takes way more years till it will be a good fighter and Indias security can't afford to have LCA, FGFA and EF under development at the same time!

 

[rissriva]

India is using SU30MKIs since 2002, from 30 in beginning to 146 till the end of 2011. And during this time, they lost 3 aircrafts. This way if we assume an average of 70 aircrafts in service in between 2002 to 2011 then we find IAF is losing around 1 in every 200 SU30MKI aircrafts every year. While Pakistan just lost one JF17 and they are using 40 JF17s since last 1.5 years which means it has crass rate of around 1 in 100 aircrafts per year. (I would encourage you to come with other comparison also.)

So, if you are going to operate 146 to 270 SU30MKIs in between 2012 to 2020 then you would expect at least 20 crashes till 2020, leaving around 250 only till 2020. So, IAF would go for at least 50 MKIs more to have the number around 300 by 2020, 270 by 2030, 240 by 2040, and at least 200 MKIs by 2050.

I heard even Super Hornet crashed last year. So, be like a man and ready for few losses on time to time. Don’t you lose 20 to 40 military personnel on Siachen Glacier every year, just to hold that strategic place, we do face losses on time to time.

Thanks for all this Probable scientific review ....

 

[praveen007]

24 JANUARY D- DAY for MMRCA ?
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If sources are to be believed MMRCA winner will be announced just few days before 26 January Republic Day , while some media Sources are putting that day has 24 January 2012 , has the day when worlds single largest order will be declared . Recently they were some rumors which idrw.org along with some reputed news agencies reported that Eurofigther might have won the MMRCA competition , while it seems some one has stepped in and the MMRCA Rumors and the mouth spreading them have told to shut up . Whole Rumors surrounding Eurofigther has died down and no source wants to talk about it now it seems . is it silent before a TYPHOON ?? well we are not sure and with just few days left for the supposed D Day , we will hold for a official confirmation now .
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Source:- 24 JANUARY D DAY for MMRCA ? | idrw.org

 

[The enlightened]

'British Typhoons Whacked India's Sukhois in Joint Exercises'
Now this one seems interesting.
It's a lit'l old though.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

'British Typhoons Whacked India's Sukhois in Joint Exercises'
Now this one seems interesting.
It's a lit'l old though.

Well that wasn't surprising in BVR though. EFT is far better in complete configuration when compared to the training mode in Su 30 that we were using.

 

[angeldemon_007]

'British Typhoons Whacked India's Sukhois in Joint Exercises'
Now this one seems interesting.
It's a lit'l old though.

Well Rafale aLSO beat Su30 mki in the dogfight but its because Su30 mki is bulkier air supremacy aircraft of the category of F15. In the real battle Su30 mki won't let these aircraft enter in the dogfight in the first place. If you wanna compare F15 with Su30 mki then i think in the dogfight Su30 mki will win. MKI is an engineering marvel, its very maneuverable...

 

[ptltejas]

India is using SU30MKIs since 2002, from 30 in beginning to 146 till the end of 2011. And during this time, they lost 3 aircrafts. This way if we assume an average of 70 aircrafts in service in between 2002 to 2011 then we find IAF is losing around 1 in every 200 SU30MKI aircrafts every year. While Pakistan just lost one JF17 and they are using 40 JF17s since last 1.5 years which means it has crass rate of around 1 in 100 aircrafts per year. (I would encourage you to come with other comparison also.)


So, if you are going to operate 146 to 270 SU30MKIs in between 2012 to 2020 then you would expect at least 20 crashes till 2020, leaving around 250 only till 2020. So, IAF would go for at least 50 MKIs more to have the number around 300 by 2020, 270 by 2030, 240 by 2040, and at least 200 MKIs by 2050.u

I heard even Super Hornet crashed last year. So, be like a man and ready for few losses on time to time. Don’t you lose 20 to 40 military personnel on Siachen Glacier every year, just to hold that strategic place, we do face losses on time to time.

Admitted Sir. My point was against Mig 21 and not Sukhois. Well pilot loss its life as martyr is not problem. But sucide in old junk is useless. War must be with courage and with right weapons why we lost pilots in old mig that s grievance.

 

[tvsram1992]

I heard even Super Hornet crashed last year. So, be like a man and ready for few losses on time to time. Don’t you lose 20 to 40 military personnel on Siachen Glacier every year, just to hold that strategic place, we do face losses on time to time.

He mean Mig21 i think , btw we cant let Siachen go under the control of Pakistan , we will protect it by sacrificing few lives as if we dont we will lose the land . Coming to the crashes we have an option ie replacing with Mig35 or Su35 or Gripen or better upgradation like better ejection systems , upgrading avionics and engine or reducing flight time etc . We cant continue to lose pilots at this rate . Hope you agree with this point .

 

[StrikeForce]

Rafale - Combat Power(Old one but good one)