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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

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Arms dealer connection holds up the Rafale deal
By Pradip R Sagar

Published: 31st Jul 2016 07:49:42 AM

NEW DELHI: Having learnt from UPA’s follies in defence deals, which marred its image due to bribery scandals, the BJP-led NDA government is taking care before inking its first major acquisition deal to procure 36 Rafale warplanes with France.



Arms%20Dealer%20Connection.jpg

Sanjay Bhandari
A highly-placed source said that the Ministry of Defence before going ahead with the much-awaited deal, is seeking a ‘no-objection’ from the investigating agencies probing arms lobbyist Sanjay Bhandari, whose name had figured in various defence deals during UPA government.


A top official claimed that during a series of raids at Bhandari’s office and residential premises in May, Income Tax and Enforcement Directorate investigators had seized several documents related to defence deals, including Mirage-2000 upgrade with French companies Dassault and Thales.

Dassault Aviation is the manufacturer of Rafale fighter jets. Leads generated from raids at Sanjay Bhandari’s premises gave key inputs on other lobbyists, who are now being scanned for swinging defence deals.

“We are simply verifying with the investigating agencies whether they have found any linkages of Bhandari with French firm manufacturing Rafale jets,” said a top source. Defence sources are apprehensive about Bhandari’s deep-rooted links with French defence firms.

It is learnt that investigating agencies are looking into Bhandari role in the Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) Rs 10,947 crore project, finalised in 2011-12 for an upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000s with the help of French companies Dassault Aviation and Thales (weapons systems integrator). The CAG has criticised the high cost of upgrade the project.

Ministry officials involved in the acquisition process are also wary on going ahead with the deal until clearance from the all sections is availed. For now, price is not the only issue, which is delaying the much -hyped fighter jet deal.

“We have more or less agreed to the price. Such due diligence is required before finalising such a project,” said an MoD official.

Earlier, both sides were working on the price as India is targeting between `65,000-68,000 crore (8 billion Euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets. However, on the other side, Dassault has quoted a whopping figure of nearly `90,000 crore (12 billion euros) for aircraft fitted with high-end weapons and radar systems.

In the absence of a mutually agreed price, the deal could not be inked during French President Francois Hollande’s visit to New Delhi for Republic Day. It only dashed hopes of the Indian Air Force (IAF), which is struggling to cope with its depleting fleet strength, and also caused embarrassment for New Delhi as no major announcement was made during meeting of the top political leadership of both countries.

While visiting France in April 2015, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced his decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets citing “operational necessity” of the IAF. Thirty-six nuclear-capable Rafale jets will come to India in fly-away condition fitted with weapon systems such as active electronically scanned phased array radar, high-end beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapon systems.

The depleting combat strength of the IAF has been a cause of concern as it is down to 34 fighter squadrons against its authorised strength of 42, based on certain projections in the next couple of years. IAF is getting four squadrons of Su-30, and subsequently indigenously-built Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is expected to fill its critical requirement. However, Tejas is still a long way to go.
 
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On the morning of July 22, Indian Air Force flight AN-32, with 29 people on board, took off from the from the Tambaram air base in Chennai, winging its way across the Indian Ocean towards the Andaman Islands, before suddenly fell off the radar and is yet to be found. With each passing day, hopes of those on board surviving the crash dimmed and they are now presumed dead.

The passengers included 11 Indian Air Force personnel, three other Armed Forces officials, one from the Coast Guard and eight civilians, apart from six crew members.

This purported crash couldn’t have come at a worse time for the beleaguered Indian Air Force, already battling depleting combat squadron strength – it reportedly has 32 to 33 fighter squadrons against a recommended strength of 42 – and ageing aircraft, with no end in sight to the crisis.

Rafale deal awaiting take-off

On July 19, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar informed Parliament during its ongoing monsoon session that the deal to buy 36 Rafale aircraft from France was still stuck. Parrikar said both sides were still negotiating and the “the IGA [Inter-Governmental Agreement for the purchase of the aircraft] and the offset contract are yet to be finalised.”

The plan to buy Rafale fighter jets from France has been in the making for years now. In January, during French President Francois Hollande’s visit to India as the chief guest for the country’s Republic Day celebrations, Modi had said that India and France had “concluded an Inter-Government Agreement” for the purchase of the aircraft, but Parrikar’s recent statement indicates that the agreement is yet to be sealed.

Officials in Vayu Bhawan, the Air Force headquarters, told Scroll.in that while pricing continues to be a major hurdle, there are also concerns about the offset clause that has held up the deal.

The original documents state that any foreign company that sells arms to India will have to channelise 50% of the cost back as contracts and business to Indian aviation companies. While the French feel that this is unrealistic, the Indian government is wary of diluting this contract.

“This [the dilution] can be construed as an act to help the French and could lead to adverse remarks from the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Central Vigilance Commission,” said a serving Air Marshal who wished to remain anonymous.

Ageing aircraft

For decades, the Indian Air Force was dependent on the Soviet-era MiG series of fighter aircraft – the MiG-21, MiG-25, MiG-23 and the MiG-27. It started purchasing the MiG-21 in the early 1960s and at one point, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the government-owned defence manufacturer, built nearly 700 of them.

But with time, the air force was forced to “number-plate” (the official term for retire) a number of its squadrons. Nearly a decade ago, the air force sought a sanction of maintaining at least 45 combat aircraft squadrons (each squadron has 18 aircraft). However, the government sanctioned only 42 squadrons. But as more and more of the older squadrons were number-plated, the Indian Air Force was left with an effective strength of only 30-odd combat aircraft squadrons.

Even the numbers are misleading. Most of the squadrons house about 260 MiG-21 fighters, which are nearly 30 years old. The balance of the squadron is a mixed bag, which reflects the poor planning that has plagued the Indian Air Force for decades. For instance, it has two squadrons of the MiG-29, two of the Mirage-2000, a French jet fighter, and a few squadrons of the Anglo-French Jaguars. Such a large inventory of different kinds of aircraft for a small air force spells logistical nightmare. It also reflects that the Indian Air Force was never allowed to strategise and acquire aircraft on a long-term perspective plan. As and when an aircraft became available, it managed to purchase them in bits and pieces.

Part of the problem was India’s confused view of the changing global geo-politics. In the 1970s and ’80s, it hesitantly started acquiring aircraft from the West, starting with the Jaguar and the Mirage-2000, but inducted them in very limited quantities. Later, it acquired the Sukhoi Su-30 from Russia.

History is set to repeat itself as India waits to acquire 36 Rafale – enough for about two squadrons – from France even as a larger deal to buy 126 of these fighter jets is likely to take longer to stitch up.

Precarious position

Part of the fault also lies in Indian Air Force’s inability to map its future challenges. Had that been done, it could have zeroed in on a particular kind of aircraft and then built it in India.

Instead, it chose to buy what was available in a unipolar world after the collapse of the Soviet Union. By the mid-1980s, Pakistan had already purchased the F-16s from the US, sending Indian Air Force planners into a tizzy. They started scouting for aircraft that could match up to the F-16 and zeroed in on the French Mirage-2000. But as tends to be the case, there were several rounds of discussion on the procurement process before the Centre eventually agreed to buy just two squadrons of the aircraft. Though it proved very effective, New Delhi did not go ahead with further purchases.

A few years later, New Delhi decided to purchase the Russian MiG-29. While plans were afoot to buy larger numbers, the government shut down the Indian Air Force’s proposal, restricting them to just two squadrons. The bulk of the force’s strength continued to be the MiG-21s, a wonderful aircraft in its time but by now an ageing plane that was reaching the end of its technical life. With over 250 in service, the IAF was looking at a serious crisis.

After the 1999 Kargil war between India and Pakistan, the Indian Air Force mooted the idea of buying 126 multi-role combat aircraft that could address a yawning gap. By 2007, plans had been formalised and in 2011, the request for proposals went out. Dassault, the manufacturers of the Rafale, won the bid and a plan was finalised for the purchase of 126 aircraft at an estimated cost of $8.5 billion. But as negotiations progressed, the price of the aircraft continued to climb and at one point, it was estimated that the final cost would be around $12 billion. Soon after taking charge of the Ministry of Defence in 2014, Parrikar said the deal was “effectively dead” and that they would look for indigenous options.

But the indigenous option – the Light Combat Aircraft christened Tejas, was still awaiting Final Operational Clearance. While it is indigenously designed and built, nearly 60% of its parts, including the engine, are imported from different countries. While the government took the decision to induct the first Tejas squadron the Indian Air Force, it is still short by nearly 110 combat aircraft, if one takes the original estimates. The MiG 21, meanwhile, is being phased out, reiterating the need to induct new aircraft.

Privately, Indian Air Force officials admit that they are not very happy with the decision to buy just 36 Rafale aircraft.

“We need a good workhorse aircraft,” said an Air Marshal. “The Rafale is like an expensive Mercedes that is a great product but comes at an incredible cost and throws our limited budget into disarray. What we need are light combat aircraft, just like the MiG-21 was.”

But Parrikar’s statement that the Rafale agreement is yet to be finalised comes as a further jolt to the Indian Air Force’s already precarious position.


http://scroll.in/article/812617/as-...dian-air-force-struggles-with-dwindling-fleet
 
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kahonapyarhai said:
On the morning of July 22, Indian Air Force flight AN-32, with 29 people on board, took off from the from the Tambaram air base in Chennai, winging its way across the Indian Ocean towards the Andaman Islands, before suddenly fell off the radar and is yet to be found. With each passing day, hopes of those on board surviving the crash dimmed and they are now presumed dead.

The passengers included 11 Indian Air Force personnel, three other Armed Forces officials, one from the Coast Guard and eight civilians, apart from six crew members.

This purported crash couldn’t have come at a worse time for the beleaguered Indian Air Force, already battling depleting combat squadron strength – it reportedly has 32 to 33 fighter squadrons against a recommended strength of 42 – and ageing aircraft, with no end in sight to the crisis.

Rafale deal awaiting take-off

On July 19, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar informed Parliament during its ongoing monsoon session that the deal to buy 36 Rafale aircraft from France was still stuck. Parrikar said both sides were still negotiating and the “the IGA [Inter-Governmental Agreement for the purchase of the aircraft] and the offset contract are yet to be finalised.”

The plan to buy Rafale fighter jets from France has been in the making for years now. In January, during French President Francois Hollande’s visit to India as the chief guest for the country’s Republic Day celebrations, Modi had said that India and France had “concluded an Inter-Government Agreement” for the purchase of the aircraft, but Parrikar’s recent statement indicates that the agreement is yet to be sealed.

Officials in Vayu Bhawan, the Air Force headquarters, told Scroll.in that while pricing continues to be a major hurdle, there are also concerns about the offset clause that has held up the deal.

The original documents state that any foreign company that sells arms to India will have to channelise 50% of the cost back as contracts and business to Indian aviation companies. While the French feel that this is unrealistic, the Indian government is wary of diluting this contract.

“This [the dilution] can be construed as an act to help the French and could lead to adverse remarks from the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Central Vigilance Commission,” said a serving Air Marshal who wished to remain anonymous.

Ageing aircraft

For decades, the Indian Air Force was dependent on the Soviet-era MiG series of fighter aircraft – the MiG-21, MiG-25, MiG-23 and the MiG-27. It started purchasing the MiG-21 in the early 1960s and at one point, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the government-owned defence manufacturer, built nearly 700 of them.

But with time, the air force was forced to “number-plate” (the official term for retire) a number of its squadrons. Nearly a decade ago, the air force sought a sanction of maintaining at least 45 combat aircraft squadrons (each squadron has 18 aircraft). However, the government sanctioned only 42 squadrons. But as more and more of the older squadrons were number-plated, the Indian Air Force was left with an effective strength of only 30-odd combat aircraft squadrons.

Even the numbers are misleading. Most of the squadrons house about 260 MiG-21 fighters, which are nearly 30 years old. The balance of the squadron is a mixed bag, which reflects the poor planning that has plagued the Indian Air Force for decades. For instance, it has two squadrons of the MiG-29, two of the Mirage-2000, a French jet fighter, and a few squadrons of the Anglo-French Jaguars. Such a large inventory of different kinds of aircraft for a small air force spells logistical nightmare. It also reflects that the Indian Air Force was never allowed to strategise and acquire aircraft on a long-term perspective plan. As and when an aircraft became available, it managed to purchase them in bits and pieces.

Part of the problem was India’s confused view of the changing global geo-politics. In the 1970s and ’80s, it hesitantly started acquiring aircraft from the West, starting with the Jaguar and the Mirage-2000, but inducted them in very limited quantities. Later, it acquired the Sukhoi Su-30 from Russia.

History is set to repeat itself as India waits to acquire 36 Rafale – enough for about two squadrons – from France even as a larger deal to buy 126 of these fighter jets is likely to take longer to stitch up.

Precarious position

Part of the fault also lies in Indian Air Force’s inability to map its future challenges. Had that been done, it could have zeroed in on a particular kind of aircraft and then built it in India.

Instead, it chose to buy what was available in a unipolar world after the collapse of the Soviet Union. By the mid-1980s, Pakistan had already purchased the F-16s from the US, sending Indian Air Force planners into a tizzy. They started scouting for aircraft that could match up to the F-16 and zeroed in on the French Mirage-2000. But as tends to be the case, there were several rounds of discussion on the procurement process before the Centre eventually agreed to buy just two squadrons of the aircraft. Though it proved very effective, New Delhi did not go ahead with further purchases.

A few years later, New Delhi decided to purchase the Russian MiG-29. While plans were afoot to buy larger numbers, the government shut down the Indian Air Force’s proposal, restricting them to just two squadrons. The bulk of the force’s strength continued to be the MiG-21s, a wonderful aircraft in its time but by now an ageing plane that was reaching the end of its technical life. With over 250 in service, the IAF was looking at a serious crisis.

After the 1999 Kargil war between India and Pakistan, the Indian Air Force mooted the idea of buying 126 multi-role combat aircraft that could address a yawning gap. By 2007, plans had been formalised and in 2011, the request for proposals went out. Dassault, the manufacturers of the Rafale, won the bid and a plan was finalised for the purchase of 126 aircraft at an estimated cost of $8.5 billion. But as negotiations progressed, the price of the aircraft continued to climb and at one point, it was estimated that the final cost would be around $12 billion. Soon after taking charge of the Ministry of Defence in 2014, Parrikar said the deal was “effectively dead” and that they would look for indigenous options.

But the indigenous option – the Light Combat Aircraft christened Tejas, was still awaiting Final Operational Clearance. While it is indigenously designed and built, nearly 60% of its parts, including the engine, are imported from different countries. While the government took the decision to induct the first Tejas squadron the Indian Air Force, it is still short by nearly 110 combat aircraft, if one takes the original estimates. The MiG 21, meanwhile, is being phased out, reiterating the need to induct new aircraft.

Privately, Indian Air Force officials admit that they are not very happy with the decision to buy just 36 Rafale aircraft.

“We need a good workhorse aircraft,” said an Air Marshal. “The Rafale is like an expensive Mercedes that is a great product but comes at an incredible cost and throws our limited budget into disarray. What we need are light combat aircraft, just like the MiG-21 was.”

But Parrikar’s statement that the Rafale agreement is yet to be finalised comes as a further jolt to the Indian Air Force’s already precarious position.


http://scroll.in/article/812617/as-...dian-air-force-struggles-with-dwindling-fleet
Click to expand...

There is a Rafale sticky.
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions-thread-2.351407/

Pls post Rafale related news there and dont open new threads for the same.

@waz @WAJsal @WebMaster @mods
Request you to kindly merge this thread with the sticky thread.


On Topic:
Aug-Sep are very very crucial months. So there would be lots of false reports. Like this one and the one ydy in new Indian Express.
In coming days many things would be clear.
 
. . .
It's true.. Really not happy with Modi and parikar on IAF front... ... IAF at its weakest
 
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Can anyone explain in simple terms whats the holdup? Is it the price issue or guarantees which India sought? Further more what is the status of those off the shelve purchase made directly from France?
 
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India just need to eat the humble pie and paid whatever amount foreign countries ask for it since India can hardly make any combat jets. French,Russian and American know India is desperate and they will never lower their asking price. The time is on their side. :enjoy:
 
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Beast said:
India just need to eat the humble pie and paid whatever amount foreign countries ask for it since India can hardly make any combat jets. French,Russian and American know India is desperate and they will never lower their asking price. The time is on their side. :enjoy:
Click to expand...
you are so wrong in your analysis....had the time been on their side, it wouldn't have taken so long to get through the deal...Today customer is the king as far as India is concerned..we have so many choices that we are getting bit greedy in finalizing the deal..We are just trying to negotiate it very hard again and again by evaluating stuff from competitors....nothing wrong in saving few billions!...Additionally, new government is acting bit over vigilance as they have to stick to their policies of zero corruption and Make In India....these things are also causing delay to the induction of new defense techs..No country can make their defense force 100% satisfied...even Pentagon rejects the requests of US defense forces...
 
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PARIKRAMA said:
There is a Rafale sticky.
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafale-tender-news-discussions-thread-2.351407/

Pls post Rafale related news there and dont open new threads for the same.

@waz @WAJsal @WebMaster @mods
Request you to kindly merge this thread with the sticky thread.


On Topic:
Aug-Sep are very very crucial months. So there would be lots of false reports. Like this one and the one ydy in new Indian Express.
In coming days many things would be clear.
Click to expand...
will there ever be a point were the french say "no you take it or leave it, you have 2 weeks"
 
. .
JD_In said:
you are so wrong in your analysis....had the time been on their side, it wouldn't have taken so long to get through the deal...Today customer is the king as far as India is concerned..we have so many choices that we are getting bit greedy in finalizing the deal..We are just trying to negotiate it very hard again and again by evaluating stuff from competitors....nothing wrong in saving few billions!...Additionally, new government is acting bit over vigilance as they have to stick to their policies of zero corruption and Make In India....these things are also causing delay to the induction of new defense techs..No country can make their defense force 100% satisfied...even Pentagon rejects the requests of US defense forces...
Click to expand...
Yes, when IAF left with 10 squadron of plane. I hope you can still held on to your believe :enjoy:
 
.
Blue Marlin said:
will there ever be a point were the french say "no you take it or leave it, you have 2 weeks"
Click to expand...
There is no reason for French to say that...they are not loosing anything at the moment except keeping India engaged, but if they say so, they will certainly loose one major lead/potential pipeline which is not good for any company!

Beast said:
Yes, when IAF left with 10 squadron of plane. I hope you can still held on to your believe :enjoy:
Click to expand...
sure, will be good for our beloved neighbors, thanks for being so concerned...!
 
Last edited:
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