Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[kaykay]

drama continues.....Haha

 

[sathya]

any inside Information or just speculation ?

Just speculation only, previous deals were all put up by UPA,

When even the near complete MMRCA were so modified and negotiated before the DPP by parrikar , MRTT 100% won't escape the current DPP

They ll deal for higher numbers , will wait strategic timing like NSG , negotiate for industry development ..

These have become a routine now.

Now that all the procedures and protocols put forward, we can see may be little faster deals .

 

[Abingdonboy]

Parrikar has struck again:
Indian defence ministry scraps MRTT tender for second time
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
26 July 2016

Airbus Defence and Space (DS) has said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) terminated in late June the six-year-old USD2 billion tender for six multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), for which the company's A330 MRTT had been shortlisted.

"We have been notified by the MoD of the withdrawal of the request for proposals (RfP), but we do not see this as the end of the road for the A330 MRTT campaign in India," an Airbus official told IHS Jane's on 26 July, adding that the aerospace company "will engage with the Indian government in finding a way to bring the A330 MRTT's capabilities to the IAF".

http://www.janes.com/article/62543/...scraps-mrtt-tender-for-second-time?from_rss=1

I was wondering why this had not happened yet. They can replace it with a new GTG deal for tankers and AWACS-India platforms now.

Funnily enough, I was wondering to myself what exactly the MoD was playing at wrt to the MRTT deal. This is an annoying and yet all to predictable setback. MP is beset by the same tendancies as his predeccesor wherein he has a allowed an entirely irrelevent complaint from literally DECADES ago to scupper an excellent purchase.


HOWEVER, I think there is some light at the end of this tunnel. If one is watching these matters from a broader perspective it is clear that Airbus Military is getting more than a toehold in the Indian market these days and MII coupled with DPP-2016 may see Airbus/France as the greatest beneficary. Look at the C-295 offer (Tata JV), H225M/Panther offers (Mahindra JV), AWACS (INDIA) project of DRDO (A330 has been selected as the platform) as well as the C-295 for DRDO's MPA project (for the Indian Coast Guard and Navy). There is certainly scope for the A330 MRTT to enter into IAF service but, alas, this is India so it will be later than intended. I'm aware that Airbus is stepping up outsourcing efforts to India so hopefully the next MRTT bid will see more Indian content and pursued through the "Make In India" policy AND will incorporate a greater scope considering the IN has an outstanding requirement for 3-6 platforms of its own (the latter point is more of a fantasy considering pooled purchases are almost unheard of between the services).


I wonder how my friend @PARIKRAMA sees these things.

 

[jha]

Parrikar has struck again:
Indian defence ministry scraps MRTT tender for second time
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
26 July 2016

Airbus Defence and Space (DS) has said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) terminated in late June the six-year-old USD2 billion tender for six multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), for which the company's A330 MRTT had been shortlisted.

"We have been notified by the MoD of the withdrawal of the request for proposals (RfP), but we do not see this as the end of the road for the A330 MRTT campaign in India," an Airbus official told IHS Jane's on 26 July, adding that the aerospace company "will engage with the Indian government in finding a way to bring the A330 MRTT's capabilities to the IAF".

http://www.janes.com/article/62543/...scraps-mrtt-tender-for-second-time?from_rss=1

Good riddance... Was stuck for a long time.

 

[[Bregs]]

arey bhai parikarma any news on this tortoise deal of rafale for 36 Nos ???

@PARIKRAMA

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Funnily enough, I was wondering to myself what exactly the MoD was playing at wrt to the MRTT deal. This is an annoying and yet all to predictable setback. MP is beset by the same tendancies as his predeccesor wherein he has a allowed an entirely irrelevent complaint from literally DECADES ago to scupper an excellent purchase.


HOWEVER, I think there is some light at the end of this tunnel. If one is watching these matters from a broader perspective it is clear that Airbus Military is getting more than a toehold in the Indian market these days and MII coupled with DPP-2016 may see Airbus/France as the greatest beneficary. Look at the C-295 offer (Tata JV), H225M/Panther offers (Mahindra JV), AWACS (INDIA) project of DRDO (A330 has been selected as the platform) as well as the C-295 for DRDO's MPA project (for the Indian Coast Guard and Navy). There is certainly scope for the A330 MRTT to enter into IAF service but, alas, this is India so it will be later than intended. I'm aware that Airbus is stepping up outsourcing efforts to India so hopefully the next MRTT bid will see more Indian content and pursued through the "Make In India" policy AND will incorporate a greater scope considering the IN has an outstanding requirement for 3-6 platforms of its own (the latter point is more of a fantasy considering pooled purchases are almost unheard of between the services).


I wonder how my friend @PARIKRAMA sees these things.

Its beyond the purview of this thread but still i am taking the liberty to discuss bcz Pic has pointed a good point. Our DM Mp seems to be scrap savvy.

The buzz is that there will be a combined procurement of 6+6 = 12 and 12 more options for a new tender.
The tender usage will be

• MRTT
• Hosting Phalcon Awacs

Contenders are

• IL76/78MKI
• A330 MRTT

Both of these are looked at with special focus on

• Operational uptime/ Availability rate
• Localisation of Spares
• Meeting DPP 2016 under which offsets needs to be defined where they will invest

Challenge seen is

• Wishing for commonality
• Cheaper maintenance
• Spare localisation and availability
• Better bargaining power and reduced costs upfront and LCC via spare localisations like points
• Competition would be tough surely but for this combined need will make both bid and we get a situation away from single bid

Talk about Indians being genius.. we find solutions to all complex problems with cunning street smart ways

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hosting Phalcon Awacs

Before I comment on the rest of your post bro can you clarify whether this would be for hosting the IAI EL/W-2090 PHALCON as part of a follow-on off the shelf procurement for the IAF or whether you mean for hosting the DRDO's AWACS (INDIA)?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

arey bhai parikarma any news on this tortoise deal of rafale for 36 Nos ???

@PARIKRAMA

DM MP is sending note to CCS.. Finally..
Countdown max 2 months before MP sends note and CCS approval comes out. French side would be here within next 2 months to formally sign..

It would be over soon..

Before I comment on the rest of your post bro can you clarify whether this would be for hosting the IAI EL/W-2090 PHALCON as part of a follow-on off the shelf procurement for the IAF or whether you mean for hosting the DRDO's AWACS (INDIA)?

First lot will sport Phalcons EL/W 2090 and second lot under follow on may be having DRDO AWACS (if its ready).

Most probably the aircraft chosen will test DRDO home grown AWACS.

Bets are hedged on Airbus but Russian side is offering ILs damn cheap in throwaway prices actually. But operational availability is a challenge with LCC cost. so a babu has suggested this unique jugaad..

 

[Abingdonboy]

Its beyond the purview of this thread but still i am taking the liberty to discuss bcz Pic has pointed a good point. Our DM Mp seems to be scrap savvy.

The buzz is that there will be a combined procurement of 6+6 = 12 outright purchases and 12 more options for a new tender.
The tender usage will be

• MRTT
• Hosting Phalcon Awacs

Contenders are

• IL76/78MKI
• A330 MRTT

Both of these are looked at with special focus on

• Operational uptime/ Availability rate
• Localisation of Spares
• Meeting DPP 2016 under which offsets needs to be defined where they will invest

Challenge seen is

• Wishing for commonality
• Cheaper maintenance
• Spare localisation and availability
• Better bargaining power and reduced costs upfront and LCC via spare localisations like points
• Competition would be tough surely but for this combined need will make both bid and we get a situation away from single bid

Talk about Indians being genius.. we find solutions to all complex problems with cunning street smart ways

First lot will sport Phalcons EL/W 2090 and second lot under follow on may be having DRDO AWACS (if its ready).

Most probably the aircraft chosen will test DRDO home grown AWACS.

Bets are hedged on Airbus but Russian side is offering ILs damn cheap in throwaway prices actually. But operational availability is a challenge with LCC cost. so a babu has suggested this unique jugaad..

Hmmm, that's interesting. As it stands the IAF has 3 A-50EI AWACS supporting the EL/W-2090 and a further 2 are on order to take the total to 5 EL/W-2090 PHALCONs on the A-50 platform. So if the IAF is looking to purchase a further batch of EL/W-2090 they will (likely) be on an entirely new platform (A330)? And this will have commonality with the CABS DRDO's AWACS (INDIA) for which the A330 has already been selected (and the future MRTT fleet):

The Indian MoD today sanctioned $818 million (Rs 5113 crore) for the country’s indigenous AWACS programme, with a go-ahead to order two modified Airbus A330 widebody jets as the platform. Funds for four additional jets for a total of six will come through later.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03/a330-for-indian-awacs-tanker-deal-still.html


Hmmm, this makes too much sense, no Indian could have thought this up

This is only what I have been suggesting for the past few years, I was in fact suggesting that any follow on units beyond the 3 A-50 PHALCONs already in service should be based on the A330


Anyway, on the MRTT/new situation with the emphasis on LCC/commonality/maintainability the Airbus proposal is surely going to utterly demolish any offer the Russians can make (no matter how cheap they offer their products)?

1) LCC- the A330 MRTT has now been selected for the IAF's AAR requirement TWICE (both times beating the IL-78MKI and the second time on LCC). The efficency of the A330 over the IL-78 is well understood.
2) Commonality- the CABS DRDO AWACS (INDIA) will be using the A330 from 2020 onwards, the present IL-76/78 fleet will begin being phased out from 2030.
3) Maintainability- Airbus is a global OEM with MASSIVE support infrastructure that only Boeing could rival. Airbus has a signifcant (and increasing) presence in the Indian civil market (huge (historic) orders from IndiGo and SpiceJet) and they are going to be setting up MRO facilities in India to support Indian and regional Airbus fleets. The issues the IAF has faced with their IL-76s is well known and Ilyushin will remain a niche OEM will almost no support base outside of the former Eastern bloc, no ammount of polishing (limited avionic/engine upgrades) will change this t*rd. Despite 3+ decades of operations in the Indian market Ilyushin has barely invested in localised support infrastructure for India and I don't see them looking to do so for the future.

If this was a Boeing vs Airbus competition I would be genuinly excited as it could lead to great benefits for the Indian Mil and local industry (as Boeing and Airbus are already engaged in quite the slug match to capture greater market share in the rapidly expanding civil market and are investing heavily). As it stands Airbus are surely going to walk over the Russians, it's not even going to be a contest. There is just no way the Russians can compete with a global giant like Airbus that is actively expanding its penetration into the Indian market.

Furthermore, which side is taking Make In India more seriously; France or Russia? Again there is simply no contest.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I know this thread has been posted in the main defence section but it is worth discussing here:

https://defence.pk/threads/boeing-to-clarify-f-a-18-make-in-india-offer.441237/

@PARIKRAMA @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Taygibay @Stephen Cohen @anant_s @randomradio @Vergennes @Armani thoughts?

 

[SQ8]

Gentlemen.

PLEASE KEEP THE DISCUSSION TO THE RAFALE!

 

[Taygibay]

In India, Oscar, if I may add! The discussion on the Rafale for India.

If it was a thread on the Rafale period, it would be much less noisy?


So early September for that contract signing you said, Parik my friend.
So converted in IST say, Christmas gift / New Year bonus?

Tay.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

https://twitter.com/x/status/758269488508706818

https://twitter.com/x/status/758376609439223808

Too many beauties here....

 

[randomradio]

Funnily enough, I was wondering to myself what exactly the MoD was playing at wrt to the MRTT deal. This is an annoying and yet all to predictable setback. MP is beset by the same tendancies as his predeccesor wherein he has a allowed an entirely irrelevent complaint from literally DECADES ago to scupper an excellent purchase.


HOWEVER, I think there is some light at the end of this tunnel. If one is watching these matters from a broader perspective it is clear that Airbus Military is getting more than a toehold in the Indian market these days and MII coupled with DPP-2016 may see Airbus/France as the greatest beneficary. Look at the C-295 offer (Tata JV), H225M/Panther offers (Mahindra JV), AWACS (INDIA) project of DRDO (A330 has been selected as the platform) as well as the C-295 for DRDO's MPA project (for the Indian Coast Guard and Navy). There is certainly scope for the A330 MRTT to enter into IAF service but, alas, this is India so it will be later than intended. I'm aware that Airbus is stepping up outsourcing efforts to India so hopefully the next MRTT bid will see more Indian content and pursued through the "Make In India" policy AND will incorporate a greater scope considering the IN has an outstanding requirement for 3-6 platforms of its own (the latter point is more of a fantasy considering pooled purchases are almost unheard of between the services).


I wonder how my friend @PARIKRAMA sees these things.

It is a minor setback. The major setback happened when it was canceled the first time. Now, it may signal the entry of Airbus as a major manufacturer in India.

 

[nang2]

In India, Oscar, if I may add! The discussion on the Rafale for India.

If it was a thread on the Rafale period, it would be much less noisy?


So early September for that contract signing you said, Parik my friend.
So converted in IST say, Christmas gift / New Year bonus?

Tay.

Still, it would be much less noisy. Basically, it is just filled with "Are we there yet? Nope". Sorry, couldn't resist.