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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

At this point even if they come to their senses the MoD might try to scuttle the deal. The capital outlay of the previous years and the current year have no provision yet for paying the percentage of acquisition cost required as the first payment. Unless some fresh outlay is mandated over and above the current allocation in the upcoming budget it is unlikely that the deal will fly through in 2015.

AFAIK we are talking about around 10% of the acquisition costs, which is not that much of an issue, but I would expect a special budget for MMRCA anyway. But as I asked recently in another thread, what happened to the IAF budget of 2014/15 anyway? There were hardy any procurements made for IAF, so how can there not be any money left?
 
Possible mission configs of the upgraded Su 30 and Rafale in IAF

Su 30 MKI mission configs.PNG
Rafale mission config1.PNG
 
@sancho the great

i dont like opportunistic scavanging of someone's wrong post like some do here in this forum
but i couldnt resist the urge to intervene so kindly excuse me for that

few mistakes are there

su 30mki configuration

-like maximum no of air -air missile carrying capability of su 30mki is 12 not 10

no5 & no7 weapon slots if you count from left side of that pic can carry air to air missiles too

-plus you have left out R77 too & also it would have been nice if you have included some future weapons too like
brahmos M

Rafale configuration
- I want to tell u 1 thing air force version has one extra weapon slot compare to naval version which has an arrestor hook

2 weapon slots in the centerline fuselarge can be certified for air to air missiles too but it has not been sanctioned yet
so if customer requirement is there the dassault can plan to use those weapon slots for air to air missile carrying
or any PGM s too

- rafale can also 3 scalp missiles too as it can carry cruise missiles like ASMPA/EXOCET in it's center fuselarge weapon slot so it can also carry 3 scalp cruise missile if reuirement is there

also you have missed ASMPA nuclear cruise missile from rafale configuration in nuclear deterrent mission

but nice try after all :D

P.S a sincere request to you dont prick OLY in his rafale thread with those kind of indirect rafale bashing posts. I can understand his frustations from his india bashing posts but cant blame him on that .

after all he is a dedicated rafale enthusiast





CHEERS
 
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Big delegation arriving very soon (if not already there) in India for last negociations round.
 
@sancho the great

i dont like opportunistic scavanging of someone's wrong post like some do here in this forum
but i couldnt resist the urge to intervene so kindly excuse me for that

As usual you jumped too easily into wrong conclusions, that's why you confused "store loadouts" with "mission configs"!
Store loadouts show all hardpoints that can carry a certain payload, while a mission config shows the usual / realistic load mix for a specific mission. I never intended to show any maximum or theoretical load configs, but made them to compare both fighters with realistic mission loads, to get a better idea of the differences (especially after the MKI upgrade). That's why including hardpoints or weapons that are not cleared or even developed makes no sense.

Big delegation arriving very soon (if not already there) in India for last negociations round.

Lets hope they change things for good.
 
As usual you jumped too easily into wrong conclusions, that's why you confused"store loadouts" with "mission configs"!
Store loadouts show all hardpoints that can carry a certain payload, while a mission config shows the usual / realistic load mix for a specific mission. I never intended to show any maximum or theoretical load configs, but made them to compare both fighters withrealistic mission loads, to get a better idea of the differences (especially after the MKI upgrade).That's why including hardpoints or weapons that are not cleared or even developed makes no sense.
.

GEEZ!!

& as expected as usual reality denial reply post from it's as usual fantasy guru poster of this forum :lol:
su_30_mki_config.jpg

su_30_mki_config_1.jpg

you are right those hardpoints are really not cleared it's clearly visible from those pics
i need a P.Sed pics to prove my point now :D


& also R77 & ASMPA cruise missiles are not developed & cleared for use by now meanwhile astra is cleared & already inducted

Yeah yeah i am damn confused
chuidi.gif



CHEERS
 
GEEZ!!

& as expected as usual reality denial reply post from it's as usual fantasy guru poster of this forum :lol:

It's not my fault that you have a lack of understanding (or reading in this case, since I couldn't be more obvious :rolleyes:), but I guess you already understood the difference now and are just in the usual denial mode when you got caught to be mistaken. Not the first and surely not the last time.
 
Need good news... better give us some inside scoop !!!

After what happend in Paris, there won't be much attention to the negotiations in the media now, for good reasons. Sometimes there are more important things right?
 
I am hearing that we are not going to go with Rafale and looking to add more SU30 MKI. If so what are our options, can we get an upgraded SU 30 instead of what we have now? @sancho.

Hey Sancho are you on twitter?
 
Ditching Rafale -The New Indian Express

Like an able pilot with his wits about him in an out-of-control warplane, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar may be preparing to ditch Rafale touted as the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) answer, which the Indian Air Force has set its heart on procuring at any cost, and going for the more economical and sensible Su-30 option instead.

It has been repeatedly emphasised by this analyst that the IAF misconceived the MMRCA requirement, disregarded the uncommonly high costs involved in procuring the chosen Rafale and France’s past record of unmet transfer of technology promises, and the Su-30s/MiG-29M2s as sustainable alternative. I also warned that the massive expenditure on the Rafale would starve the indigenous programmes (Tejas and the advanced medium combat aircraft — AMCA) of funds, and stifle the Indian aviation industry trying to get back on its feet.

The reasons for the nose-diving deal are many, and they are serious. The unwillingness of Dassault Avions, the Rafale manufacturer, to guarantee the performance of this aircraft produced under licence at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd despite the original RFP (Request for Proposal) requiring bidders to transfer technology, including production wherewithal, procedures and protocols, to this public sector unit for the aircraft’s local assembly, has been reported. There’s, however, an untold back-story revealing France’s intended duplicity.

Perceiving India as the perennial sucker, Dassault chose Reliance Aerospace Technologies Pvt Ltd (RATPL) as partner in the hope that the fabled Ambani reach and influence in Delhi would help it get around the HAL production obligation. Problems were not anticipated as evidenced by RATPL approaching the Andhra Pradesh government in 2013 for land around Hyderabad to set up a factory. But because RATPL has zero experience in producing anything remotely related to aviation, Dassault saw it as an opportunity to “double dip”, meaning arrange it so India would pay it twice for the same aircraft! This was to be managed thus: Dassault would set up a production line under RATPL aegis importing every last screw and production jig and collect the money for the 108 Rafales it puts together here at the cost-plus-profit price HAL would charge IAF. In other words, Dassault would export the Rafale assembly kits and wherewithal virtually to itself and pocket the proceeds while paying a premium to RATPL.

But this double dipping ruse in the works merely whetted France’s appetite for more. Capitalising on the IAF brass’ penchant for newer French aircraft and the Indian government’s tendency eventually to cave into the military’s demands, Dassault proposed an enlarged Rafale deal with the cost revised upwards from the $30 billion level to a $45-$50 billion contract. For such enhanced sums, Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the slightly better “F-3R” version, promised a mid-life upgrade involving retrofitment of the Thales RBE2 AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar, and suggested India’s future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the “F-4R” and “F-5R” configurations (or whatever designations they are given) now on the drawing board featuring crystal blade for jet turbines, “fly-by-light” technology, etc. Such contract extension suits the IAF fine because it plays on Vayu Bhavan’s antipathy for Russian hardware (expressed in terms of “diversity of suppliers”) as well as indigenous aircraft, and undermines both the multi-billion dollar project jointly to develop the fifth generation fighter aircraft, Su-50 PAK/FA with Russia and the Indian AMCA with its design finalised.

But for Parrikar’s welcome show of common sense this French plan would have rolled out nicely. Inconveniently for Dassault, he publicly disclosed that the far deadlier and more versatile Su-30 MKI costs `358 crores (roughly $60 million) each compared to the `700 crore price tag for the Rafale, meaning two Su-30s could be secured for the price of a single Rafale. Implicit is the reasonable conclusion that it made more sense to buy a much larger fleet of 4.5-plus generation Su-30s than to get stuck with a 4.5-minus generation Rafale sporting 5.5 generation aircraft prices. The cost comparison remains skewed even when the “super Sukhoi-30”, costing `70 crores, is considered, when the added advantage of the plunging the Russian ruble kicks in, allowing India to extract far more bang for the buck from Moscow.

Looked at another way, the original allocation of $12 billion for the MMRCA could fetch IAF at current prices a whole new, augmented, and more capable fighter/bomber armada and raise the force strength to 50 frontline combat squadrons. This because the $12 billion can buy 20 Tejas Mk-Is (in addition to the 40 already ordered), 150 Tejas Mk-IIs, some 35 super Sukhoi-30s, and around 50 MiG-29Ks/M2s (with the M-2s nearly equal of the MiG-35 the Strategic Forces Command wanted for delivering nuclear bombs, but were denied). In short, a composite additional fleet of 255 aircraft can be acquired for the initial price of 126 Rafales, with “incalculable” savings in streamlined logistics, training, and maintenance but absent the cost-hikes, delays, and aggravation of setting up a new production line (as HAL already produces Su-30 MKIs).

Besides, France’s extortionist attitude is offputting. In response to the IAF’s request not too long ago for an immediate transfer of two Rafale squadrons from the French Air Force as a quick-fix, Paris agreed but demanded these would have to be paid for at the same rate as new aircraft and that these planes could carry only French sourced weapons. Worse still, France’s reputation for fulfilling technology transfer provisions too is suspect as past experience reveals.

The IAF trusts Paris not to cutoff the supply of spares if India follows a foreign policy not to France’s or even America’s liking. Except, heeding Washington’s directive, France recently stopped the delivery of two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships Russia has paid for. What’s the guarantee Paris won’t sever supply links and leave HAL stranded mid-production and IAF frontline squadrons grounded in case India resumes nuclear testing, say?

The larger question is: How come France’s record of defaulting on technology-related parts of contracts combined with the unaffordability of French aircraft generally using any metric, were not factored by IAF and Ministry of Defence when shortlisting Rafale?

Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research

I am hearing that we are not going to go with Rafale and looking to add more SU30 MKI. If so what are our options, can we get an upgraded SU 30 instead of what we have now?

There is a rumour (and i stress, only a rumour for now) that President Putin made an offer on the Sukhois during his visit. Considering how desperate the Russians are and maybe even an intention to payback the French, it can't be ruled out that there exists some kind of a sweet deal on the table.
 
One rafale deal and all so much fire!!!
such is the point of contradictions and views that everyone's head will burst out of headaches.... hahahah

But seriously, Mr Karnad had been against this deal right from 2008-09 onwards. So everytime there is one new supporting story or quote from sources or MOD or from Rafale baiters and out comes a big blog article stating Rafale/Reliance/Cost/Indian governments being sucked by a Vampire called Dassault etc etc. I do respect his POV but i still feel and believe its a bit narrow and not 360 degree open and real views.

Its true that Dassualt while taking time in closing up this deal has played into the hands of doomsday sayers ... There is no doubt that its tieup with Reliance and issues with HAL to even stating that specifics nuts and bolts to be procured from French industry as to get Quality certification was a bit too tedious. The stretching seems to have annoyed this government a lot more i guess.. Look at the resulting development

1. DM Parrikar says we can buy more MKIs if MMRCA fails and quoted "2 MKIs approx for 1 Rafale" and cost of MKI being 384 Crs. (Mr Karnad is wrong in estimating an increase of just 10 Million $ for Zhuk AESA, and other configs under Super sukhoi program... 60 Crs per bird seems too less as per me)

2. Suddenly a announcement about AMCA program and 5000 Cr needed for the development and timeframe of 2023-25 types

I am expecting some news on LCA MK2 also in coming days with some cost or budget or timeframe to drum up program support.


WHAT ALL THIS MEANS
It means that GOI/MOD is keen to show we have back ups available in case MMRCA fails. Its a specific news to Dassault teams and i take that as a pressure tactic in negotiations. Its good DM Parrikar wants to abide by a timeframe which makes it a bit easier for everybody (hopefully he really abides and not endlessly drag). IAF may not be able to force MOD /DM/GOI too much on this and DM looks a bit stronger in terms of his mindset. Dassulat needs to pull up its pants (or panties perhaps) and finish it like a proper negotiations which is adhering to RFP and reasonable in terms of variances if any.

I expect details regarding success or failure coming out soon in a reply to Parliament/Nation/Stakeholders soon

So we have finally moved to the climax part of this potboiler story.. take some pop corn, eat and enjoy
 
The Rafale Saga

By Claude Arpi
07 Jan , 2015



Very few in India know the meaning of the French word ‘Rafale’, which is now associated with the supply of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to the Indian Air Force (IAF); ‘rafale’ means a ‘gust of wind’.

When the ‘Rafales’ prevailed in the MMRCA competition, many thought that the Big Deal would soon be signed; three years later, it is still going through tough procedural ‘gusts of wind’.

When the ‘rafales’ prevailed in the MMRCA competition, many thought that the Big Deal would soon be signed; three years later, it is still going through tough procedural ‘gusts of wind’. The reasons are not the qualities of the combat aircraft, but other complications.

Out of the 126 aircrafts to be supplied to the IAF, 18 planes are to be manufactured by the French supplier, Dassault Aviation, from its facilities in France, while the remaining 108 planes have to be built in India, under a large Transfer of Technology agreement, by Hindustan Aeronitical Ltd. (HAL).

Till recently the French side seemed very optimistic. In November, Eric Trappier, Dassault’s Chairman declared that his firm expected to conclude a deal by March: “The final phase of exclusive negotiations on the contract should conclude within India’s current budget year ending in March 2015.”

He added that this date was a ‘reasonable goal’.

On December 2, when this writer interviewed the French Defence Minister and asked about the pace of the negotiations, Mr. Le Drian said: “The negotiations are proceeding well. For a project of this scale and such complexity, which brings the transfer of numerous know-hows to several industrial stakeholders of India, the pace is comparable to that of other negotiations. Both our Governments share the will to conclude it and this is, of course, essential.”

…the main disagreement raised by the French is that Dassault is not ready to take the ‘full responsibility’ for the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by HAL, while there is apparently no issue with the 18 fighter planes to be manufactured in France by Dassault.

In January 2012, the French firm Dassault Aviation had been selected for supplying 126 MMRCAs to the IAF. The Rafale fighter had gone through a long competitive process which lasted five years, with the American F/A-18 and F-16, Russian MiG 35, European Eurofighter and Swedish Saab Gripen in the race.
While the initial Request for Information had been issued in 2001, the Request for Proposal (RFP) was only issued in 2007, as the then minister, AK Antony wanted to add new clauses, such as the Total Life-cycle Costs, in the Indian defence procurement policy. This is where the ‘complications’ started.

It is not always easy to follow the intricacies of the Rafale saga, since Dassault is, as the French say ‘muet comme une carpe’ (‘silent as a carp fish’ which makes bubbles with no sound); and the Indian Ministry of Defence and the Indian Air Force are not very loquacious too; it is understandable in view of the high stakes.

One can however gather from the Indian press that the main disagreement raised by the French is that Dassault is not ready to take the ‘full responsibility’ for the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by HAL, while there is apparently no issue with the 18 fighter planes to be manufactured in France by Dassault.

An Indian defence ministry official told some Indian journalists (on the condition of anonymity, as usual): “The ministry is in no hurry to conclude the negotiations despite what people may say. Dassault has to accept commitment mentioned in the RFP.”

Another ministry insider said that Dassault was not agreeing to HAL’s demand to take responsibility for the manufacturing process in India, “regardless of French government’s pressure, [Dassault finds that] it is too risky”.

The negotiations seem stuck on the imposition of penalties in case any delay occurs in the supply of the aircraft manufactured by HAL.

The same senior Indian MoD official added: “accepting terms and conditions of the original tender have emerged as the key issue to be resolved. The RFP clearly stated that under the transfer of technology agreement, the French will have to …take full responsibility of Indian manufactured fighter jets.”

The negotiations seem stuck on the imposition of penalties in case any delay occurs in the supply of the aircraft manufactured by HAL.

The question is: can Delhi ‘legally’ impose liabilities on something over which Dassault has no control? This sounds like one of these clauses drafted during the Antony Raj, where the ‘foreign’ supplier has to pay’.
This is also true for the Civil Liability for Nuclear Damage Act, which will be discussed during Obama’s visit later this month. The Economic Times recently editorialized: “India should bring its liability law in line with international norms. It makes little sense to keep nuclear suppliers’ liability open-ended and unlimited. This is what has held back vendors from the US, Japan and elsewhere from concretising their India plans.”

This does not solve the Rafale issue.

Parrikar announced India’s Plan B: “The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs”. It is only a bluff or is the IAF serious?

Ajia Shukla writes in The Business Standard: “For the first time since January 31, 2012, …a top Indian official has admitted serious problems in negotiating the purchase with French vendor, Dassault.”

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar indeed spoke of ‘complications’ in the negotiations “with the French side reluctant to meet commitments that the IAF had specified in the tender”. Parrikar announced India’s Plan B: “The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs”.

It is only a bluff or is the IAF serious?

Earlier this month, the Indian minister had assured his French counterpart that the Rafale negotiations would be placed on a ‘fast track’. More recently, he asserted that Le Drian “had committed to send an empowered person to negotiate after New Year.”

Now it appears that a French ‘empowered’ delegation is likely to visit India to take forward the negotiations. One could however ask: empowered’ by whom?

Dassault Aviations is a private limited company, the last aviation group in the world still owned by its founding family, who owns 51% of the group’s shares (while EADS France – Airbus Group has 46%).

IAF which has today a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons, has only 25 operational squadrons. The ‘Rafale Deal’ would be indeed a win-win for both India and France …if signed. Let us hope for the best.

Could someone outside Dassault Aviation be ‘empowered’?

Would Delhi like to deal with an official of the French Ministry of Defence?

In which capacity would that person negotiate? Can the French State guarantee the liabilities of a private limited firm? All this seems rather complicated.

Since 1999, Dassault’s main activity has been the export of business jets (Falcons). In 2012, 71% of the revenues came from the sales of the Falcons, while the Defence sector (export) is less than 5%. Is Dassault ready to take the risk to spoil its ‘civilian’ branch by guaranteeing the Rafale deal? Of course, it is up to the familial firm to decide.

When Mr. Parrikar recently declared, ‘we are in a mess that I can’t spell out’, was he thinking of this Deal?

There is no doubt that Dassault’s defence branch badly needs the Rafale order to survive, while the Indian Air Force desperately has to replace its ageing MiG-21s with a modern fighter. Further the IAF which has today a sanctioned strength of 45 fighter jet squadrons, has only 25 operational squadrons.

The ‘Rafale Deal’ would be indeed a win-win for both India and France …if signed. Let us hope for the best.

Claude Arpi: The Rafale Saga
 
I am hearing that we are not going to go with Rafale and looking to add more SU30 MKI. If so what are our options, can we get an upgraded SU 30 instead of what we have now? @sancho.

Hey Sancho are you on twitter?

That would be more than sad, but if so it will be a split between additional MKIs and LCAs. Both orders most likely will be added to HAL's existing production lines, with increased production rates. From 2017 onwards we will produce upgraded MKIs, but the full extend of the upgrade doesn't seems to be fixed yet.
No am not on twitter yet.

Bharat Karnad is professor at Centre for Policy Research

Don't know what's worse, that people like him get a professor title, or that our media give anyone the space to publish BS.
 
Those who know Russian Engineering design knows very well that, they follow a completely different standard in terms of Engineering..Probably GOST standard..
Where as French follow, ISO standars, which even Indians follow..That way it will be easy..

Yes, Indian Air Force is having Mirage 2000 fighter planes and even up gradation is being done in HAL Bangalore

2013
Upgraded Mirage 2000 undertakes maiden flight in France | Zee News

Rafale has taken India for a ride. They intentionally delayed the deal. Now cost has been more than double. India should shut the door. This is our hard earned money, Govt should not waste it for Rafale. Go for MKI and Mig29.

After 26th January , i think we will hear things more clearly about it. Its about NATO technology
 

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