Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[skysthelimit]

Dassault Insists on Latest Rafale Version for India, Doubles the Price

Dassault has offered the latest version of the Rafale fighter, the F3R for nearly double the price of the F3 version it originally bid with in the Indian fighter aircraft competition.

The company is reportedly insisting that India take the latest version as the French company is upgrading aircraft in the French Air Force to the F3R version and all future aircraft manufactured will be of the latest version.

After it was declared the lowest bidder in the Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MMRCA) competition, the French manufacturer upped the price from about US$ 65 million a unit to US$120 million a unit in mid-2014. The price hike is one of the main bones of contention which is delaying the deal.

The reason for the hike is that the F3R version launched in 2014 incorporates major software changes that will complement the Thales RBE2 active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar and allow the aircraft to deploy the MBDA Meteor Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile, along with improvements to the aircraft's Thales SPECTRA self-defence system and Mode-5/Mode-S-compatible Identification Friend or Foe interrogator/transponder.

Offering a different configuration aircraft at a higher price is in violation of the original Request for Proposal (RFP). Perhaps it is for this reason that an Indian news agency quoted an unnamed Indian official on January 4 as saying that Rafale has been told, “stick to the RFP”. India is insisting that Dassault cannot renege on the RFP clauses, the report said.

An Indian defence analyst Bharat Karnad writing in the Indian Express newspaper commented on reasons for the price hike that Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the “slightly better” F3R version, promised a mid-life upgrade to incorporate the AESA radar and suggested India’s future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the “F4R” and “F5R” configurations now on the drawing board.

However, Dassault may be justified to an extent, in asking for a higher price as the Indian Defence Procurement Procedure demands price freeze for a two year period after bidding. Beyond that it does not specify if the hike has to be of a certain percentage. Since Dassault was declared the lowest bidder in 2012, the Indian Rupee has devalued about 10% against the Euro and the cost in Euro terms has gone up for Dassault. All this will impact the final price.

A source familiar with international defence deals told defenseworld.net that developing newer versions of aircraft is a normal activity. With every enhancement, comes a new price tag. The Americans, Europeans and even the Russians do it. Even if India had selected the Eurofighter, it would have been faced with a similar situation. “The real problem is that India should have quickly wrapped up the deal after selecting the lowest bidder", he said.

Dassault Insists on Latest Rafale Version for India, Doubles the Price

 

[sancho]

An Indian defence analyst Bharat Karnad writing in the Indian Express newspaper commented on reasons for the price hike that Dassault sought to replace the Rafale originally offered with the “slightly better” F3R version, promised a mid-life upgrade to incorporate the AESA radar and suggested India’s future fifth and sixth generation combat aircraft needs be met by the “F4R” and “F5R” configurations now on the drawing board.

That's the problem when Indian media gives nutjobs like him or Ajay Shukla the chance to publish comments they made on their blogs otherwise, without any clue of what they are talking. We suddenly will find other media reports that are based on the same silly comments, without any research on the credibility or truth. No wonder that our media has such a low reputation.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Can some one like @sancho @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy or anyone clarify onething

If Suppose India wishes to upgrade Su30MKI to comparable standard of Rafale F3R what will be the price approximately?

A rough background is DM quoted MKI at 358 Cr so lets say $60 Mn and article says F3 at $65 Mn. Now to me that price is very very COMPARABLE & ALMOST SAME

So additionally whatsoever we are getting at F3R then equivalent addition in MKI would push the cost up by how much? When would be the delivery timelines? I guess F3R will be from Day 1 right? so what abt MKI upgradation program and timeframe for whole fleet upgradation? Pls clarify on COST and TIMEFRAME.
I wish to then compare and understand - apple to apple .. egg to egg..

PS: My guts says if MKI is raised to Super Sukhoi status, the price should be closer to F3R may be at best less by 10%-15% (absence of spectra is the reason for cost being less by that % as no equivalent exists in Russian AF). But i wanna understand and take into consideration more definitive & rational opinions of ppl who have more knowledge of such tech and price frame.

Another point btw any new tech cost high till economies of scale or redundancy or a superior tech being researched and envisioned for deployment timeframe is known. AESA being new tech (at least in deployment in both Russia and France), i sincerely believe cost should be high. I may be wrong but i wish to understand.


NOW FOR NUMBER CRUNCHERS

assuming F3 Cost of $65 Mn so
126 rafales F3- $8190 Mn
189 rafales F3- $12285 Mn

assuming lifetime cost addition at say 33% hence
126 rafales F3 LTC - $10892 Mn
189 rafale F3 LTC- $17137 Mn

IMP: article says F3 price as on 2014

Again say F3R is $120 Mn
so 126 rafales F3R- $15120 Mn
189 rafales F3R - $22680 Mn

Assuming LTC cost addition at 33% then

126 rafales F3R LTC- $20101 Mn
189 rafales F3R LTC- $30168 Mn

Now i have made rough estimates above and see F3 original RFP complied as well within our MMRCA budget reach with consideration of currency fluctuation and inflationary cost over time

The F3R LTC for 126 does not look bad but swells up to $ 30 Bn when we consider 189 jets.

So clearly India has been always looking at 189 birds POV from now only. But then mid life upgrade from F3 to F3R would anyway add cost. how much is what i am trying to understand and asked above part (beginning of post) versus say Su30MKI to super sukhoi config...........

again assumed figures.. for understanding only

 

[Sri]

Some interesting points by Prasun, Dont know how much from this can be considered true.
TRISHUL: Compounded Irrationalities Due To Systematic Stupidity

Compounded Irrationalities Due To Systematic Stupidity

As the saying goes, “Those who know much, talk little”. But its meaning seems to have been lost on India’s new Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) Manohar Parrikar, if we are to believe what he was reported to have said at an on-the-record press conference on December 30, 2014 regarding the procurement of 189 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA). Most of the ‘desi’ newspapers attributed two statements to Parrikar: (1) additional licence-built Su-30MKIs are adequate for the IAF in case it is decided not to procure the Rafale; and (2) The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs. Now, while it is understandable for a select group of ‘desi’ journalists to deliberately twist-and-turn the Raksha Mantri’s statements/observations (since for the past 18 months they have either been promoting, for their own vested financial interests, the procurement of either the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or the Eurofighter EF-2000), in case these ‘desi’ journalists for once did get it right and correctly quoted the Raksha Mantri, then India is indeed in some serious trouble.

Let me explain how and why. Neither the Su-30MKI nor the MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K were ever designed as multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). Their design and performance parameters were instead optimised for air dominance/air superiority, with standoff all-weather precision strike undertaken from medium altitudes being a secondary capability. It is for this reason that the erstwhile USSR had developed the Su-24 and Su-27IB/Su-34 as all-weather, terrain-hugging deep penetration strike aircraft (DPSA), and the Su-25 as a dedicated tactical strike/close air support aircraft. Consequently, neither the Su-30MKI’s nor the MiG-29UPG’s/MiG-29K’s airframes have the stress tolerances that are required for flying terrain-hugging flight profiles. Their existing X-band multi-mode radars or MMR (RLSU-30MK NO-11M ‘Bars’ and the Zhuk-M2E) therefore don’t come with low-altitude terrain avoidance mode or automatic terrain-following capability or weather-mapping mode, and neither are they equipped with low-altitude navigation pods.

Consequently, the only true M-MRCAs that are operational today in an area between India and Japan is the Republic of Singapore Air Force’s Boeing-built F-15SGs, which come equipped with Raytheon-supplied APG-63(V)3 AESA-MMR, Boeing/ELBIT Systems joint helmet mounted cueing system (JHMCS), TIGER Eyes Sensor Suite comprising Lockheed Martin’s AAQ-13 LANTIRN-ER navigation pod (containing a mid-wave staring-array FLIR sensor and aterrain-following radar and forward-looking infra-red sensor), an AAQ-33 Sniper XR targetting pod containing a mid-wave staring-array FLIR sensor with a 40,000-feet laser and charge-couple device (CCD) TV, and the AAS-43 infra-red search-and-track (IRST) system containing a passive long-wave IR sensor.

Simply put, therefore, the IAF is in dire need of procuring an M-MRCA fleet with automatic terrain-following capability—which the Rafale is optimised for. Presently, the IAF operates 3 MiG-29B-12 squadrons (now being upgraded to MiG-29UPG standard), 9 MiG-21 Bison squadrons, 4 Jaguar IS squadrons, 1 Jaguar IM squadron, 10 Su-30MKI squadrons, 3 Mirage 2000H/TH squadrons (being upgraded to Mirage 2000UPG standard), 3 MiG-27UPG squadrons, and 2 MiG-27M squadrons, making a total of 35 squadrons. Although the sanctioned strength of the IAF is 42 combat aircraft squadrons (which is due for increase to 50 squadrons by 2024, at least on paper), of these, those equipped with MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-27UPGs and MiG-27Ms will have to be decommissioned by 2017 at the latest.

Presently, the IAF is gearing up to form the first ‘Tejas’ Mk1 squadron—No45 ‘Flying Daggers’ Sqn—which will initially be first raised in Bengaluru before relocating to Sulur in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, this March. Present plans call for the first four IOC-standard) Tejas Mk1 MRCAs built by the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to be delivered by March 31, 2015, another six by March 31, 2016, and another eight by March 31, 2017. This squadron will, however, be declared fully operational only in 2022, once its 18 Tejas Mk1s are upgraded to FOC standard. The second Tejas Mk1-equipped squadron, comprising 20 FOC-standard MRCAs, will be formed up in 2017 and will become fully operational by March 31, 2020. All Tejas Mkls will be equipped with Israel Aerospace Industries/ELTA Systems-supplied EL/M-2032 MMRs, which will possess both automatic terrain-followingand weather mapping modes of operation.

Going by calculations based on universal norms, I have estimated the flyaway unit cost of procuring 40 Tejas Mk1s as being US$52 million. To this must be added the cost of air base customisation and procurement of weapons packages, all of which works to out about US$72 million per aircraft.

Meanwhile, to replace the MiG-27UPGs and MiG-27Ms, 68 Jaguar IS aircraft are presently being upgraded to DARIN 3-standard so that they can undertake all-weather tactical strike/close air support operations. This Rs.31.3 billion (US$0.57 billion) contract was awarded to HAL in March 2008 and is due for completion by December 2017. The upgraded Jaguar IS too will have on board the EL/M-2032 MMRs possessing both automatic terrain-following and weather mapping modes of operation.

From the above, it becomes clear that the IAF is now in desperate need of M-MRCAs with credible deep penetration strike capabilities and capable of flying terrain-hugging profiles. It is also well-known that the IAF wants to arrest the steady decline of its frontline combat aircraft inventory ASAP. The only available options—all non-negotiable—are as follows:

1) Ink the procurement contract for 189 Rafales latest by June 2015.

2) Increase the size of the Su-30MKI fleet to no less than 350 by procuring the first 50 Super Su-30MKIs in semi-knocked-down condition from Russia’s IRKUT Corp, starting 2017, while concurrently commencing the upgrading of in-service Su-30MKIs in successive tranches to Super Sukhoi-standard.

3) Increase the quantum of Jaguar IS being upgraded to DARIN 3-stadard from 68 to 125 and re-engine the entire fleet with Honeywell-supplied F-125 turbofans.

Now a brief explanation on why the Rafale M-MRCA procurement’s contract signature has been subjected to delays. Firstly, there was the financial crunch over the past two years. Secondly, the Union Ministry for Home Affairs had in 2012 issued mandatory industrial security-related regulations that called for comprehensive vetting (a most time-consuming process) of all technical and managerial personnel of those India-based Tier-1, Tier-2 and Tier-3 companies that were selected for the licence-manufacturing/licenced-assembly components of the Rafale M-MRCA. Thirdly, since French aerospace OEMs have always made use of France-origin precision machining, riveting and welding equipment and related test-benches, this time too they insisted that HAL and its sub-contractors procure all such hardware exclusively from French OEMs, instead of issuing global tenders for such industrial hardware procurements. Had HAL not agreed to comply with this key issue, all the involved French OEMs would have been unable to issue certificates of airworthiness for all those Rafales licence-built by HAL. It is this issue that has been most time-consuming and in the end, HAL had no other choice but to give-in.

 

[DrSomnath999]

@PARIKRAMA

cost of rafale per plane is around 90-95 million dollars

cost of su 30mki /plane is around 55-60million dollars

cost of single Super Su30mki would be higher atleast greater than 70 million dollars but not less than that

all i want to say to you & everyone that it is just a pressure tactic from MoD to bring rafale to their terms & conditions So dont take it seriously until & unless MoD itself declares the deal is scrapped

CLASSIFIED THING is
This thing was also discussed during recent Putin's visit also & was also his offer

how many journos know that

CHEERS

 

[surya kiran]

That's the problem when Indian media gives nutjobs like him or Ajay Shukla the chance to publish comments they made on their blogs otherwise, without any clue of what they are talking. We suddenly will find other media reports that are based on the same silly comments, without any research on the credibility or truth. No wonder that our media has such a low reputation.

If you want to know whether the Rafale deal will go through or fall through, just watch the share price of Dassault. That will be the first indicator.

Let me explain how and why. Neither the Su-30MKI nor the MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K were ever designed as multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). Their design and performance parameters were instead optimised for air dominance/air superiority, with standoff all-weather precision strike undertaken from medium altitudes being a secondary capability. It is for this reason that the erstwhile USSR had developed the Su-24 and Su-27IB/Su-34 as all-weather, terrain-hugging deep penetration strike aircraft (DPSA), and the Su-25 as a dedicated tactical strike/close air support aircraft. Consequently, neither the Su-30MKI’s nor the MiG-29UPG’s/MiG-29K’s airframes have the stress tolerances that are required for flying terrain-hugging flight profiles.

How exactly does the Mig 29K fly then from aircraft carriers? They fly just over the sea waves and they bob quite a bit from the info that is available? @gambit @sancho @Capt.Popeye

 

[sancho]

If Suppose India wishes to upgrade Su30MKI to comparable standard

Comparable standard means techs, but not that you have a the same performance or capabilties. All 6 contenders in the M-MRCA competition was of comparable standards and still offered very different capabilities and performance and some fittied IAF, some didn't. Even if the MKI would be upgraded to the same "technical" standard, it wouldn't meet IAFs requirements simply by the fact that it's a heavy class fighter in the first place. It wouldn't meet MoD's requirements, since more MKIs doesn't get us 50% ToT and offsets back into our industry and so on, which makes clear, that the MKI is not an alternative to M-MRCA, but a fall back option to keep the numbers of fighters in the worst case scenario.

article says

Forget about the article, it's full of BS because it's based on the nonsense Bharat Karnad is spreading around. He got is once again all wrong and is only trying to sell his own point of view. He is giving wrong figures, wrong facts on Rafale standards and the rest of the media is simply jumping on the his statements and hyping it.
Wrt Rafale standards:

The base for the M-MRCA was the F3+, that we evaluated in the trials as well and only the marked upgrades of the F3R would have any importance to India, which shows that there is no way that the price for us could double, even if the French would insist on the F3R standard (which however is an interesting claim though @halloweene ).

AESA being new tech (at least in deployment in both Russia and France), i sincerely believe cost should be high.

Of course, but that depends on where the base was! The development of Zhuk AESA for example, from the normal Zhuk Me puls doppler radar was more complicated and took more time, than the further development of the RBE 2 PESA to AESA. But the AESA is already available in the Rafale and part of the M-MRCA bid, while the F3R as shown will add just a minor upgrade to it, which can't cost that much in addition.

 

[Turingsage]

Indias procurement policy is a sad painful joke. India is asking that Dassault should pay if the quality of the jets produced by HAL is not upto the level of jets made in France. HAL "engineers" have the same technical skills as my local car mechanic. In fact my local car mechanic is a lot better as he doesnt endlessly talk about "futuristic" repairs he is going to make next week and then deliver utter shite 20 years later.
I had the unfortunate experience of visiting HAL in the late 80's as part of Thales team as a part of a contract. Every attempt to raise the quality of production or making improvements in managing projects were thwarted because these engineers and managers were still working in the 19th century snd couldnt grasp the simplest of technical concepts. Even decisions like cutting down on endless non working talking breaks and then off home yo talk some more of futuristic nonsense would take years.

DRDO HAL are all political organisations that supply a powerbase for politicians. They are defence industries only in name

 

[CONNAN]

India plans to take a final call on Rafale Fighter Jet

NEW DELHI: India plans to take a final call, one way or the other, on the gigantic $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.

Sources said the defence ministry is now hopping mad with French aviation major Dassault's continuing refusal to take "ownership" of the 108 Rafale fighters which are to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in India with transfer of technology after the first 18 jets are delivered off-the-shelf to IAF.

The MoD is also upset with Dassault's attempts to "change the price line", which led to its selection over the Eurofighter Typhoon as the L-1 (lowest bidder) three years ago, by deciding the "costing" for HAL on its own. "It will amount to a de facto hike in the L-1 price," said a source.

READ ALSO: France pushes for Rafale deal, but talks still stuck

If Dassault continues to renege from its earlier commitments, refusing to be "fully compliant" with the original RFP (request for proposal), India will be left with no option but to scrap the entire MMRCA project despite having invested almost a decade in the selection process. Incidentally, the defence procurement policy and Central Vigilance Commission guidelines do not allow the L-2 (Typhoon) to re-enter the negotiations.
As was first reported by TOI, even though 90% of the draft contract is ready, the finalization of the complex MMRCA project has been stuck for almost a year now due to Dassault's reluctance to stand guarantee for the fighters to be made in India in terms of liquidity damages and production timelines.

Sources said defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the "empowered" delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to "fast-track" the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.

READ ALSO: Amid sniping by rivals, France aims to close Rafale deal by early 2015

"The ball is firmly in the French court. India cannot allow any violation of the RFP in such a mega project, nor can it afford to let the negotiations drag on endlessly. A final call has to be taken, one way or the other," said the source.

If the MMRCA project is indeed scrapped, it will bring to an end the mega fighter selection process launched by India way back in August 2007. This "mother of all defence deals" had global aviation majors salivating at the prospect of bagging the lucrative deal.

After extensive field trials by IAF test pilots, Swedish Gripen, Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper' were ejected out of the high-voltage competition.

Subsequently, the commercial bids of the two remaining contenders -- Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS), backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, and French Rafale (Dassault) - were opened in November 2011.

Rafale was then declared the winner in January 2012, having beaten the Typhoon both on direct cost of acquisition as well as "life-cycle costs'' of operating the fighters over a 40-year period with 6,000 hours of flying. But the final commercial negotiations with Dassault have progressed at a glacial pace since then.

Rafale deal hits rough weather - The Times of India

 

[halloweene]

Sancho i wouldn't dismiss as quickly Talios pod. It has capabilities sniper or Litening do no thave like dtection of gound moving target or A2A tracking and identification.

About the "empowered" person, it is in fact adelegation going to india for what should be last round of negociations. Even I know more or less when they'll go to India so i heavily doubt Parrikar had to write Le Drian about that.

It is always a problem with anonymous sources (and i understand that a journalist should protec its sources), readers do not know how they really are to the file...
In that case, i doubt it is so close.
Your table is fairly accurate, but add a huge improvement of Spectra in the F3R game.

 

[$@rJen]

Rafale deal likely to Collapse ?
Published January 12, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE : TNN

India plans to take a final call, one way or the other, on the gigantic $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.

Sources said the defence ministry is now hopping mad with French aviation major Dassault’s continuing refusal to take “ownership” of the 108 Rafale fighters which are to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in India with transfer of technology after the first 18 jets are delivered off-the-shelf to IAF.

The MoD is also upset with Dassault’s attempts to “change the price line”, which led to its selection over the Eurofighter Typhoon as the L-1 (lowest bidder) three years ago, by deciding the “costing” for HAL on its own. “It will amount to a de facto hike in the L-1 price,” said a source.

If Dassault continues to renege from its earlier commitments, refusing to be “fully compliant” with the original RFP (request for proposal), India will be left with no option but to scrap the entire MMRCA project despite having invested almost a decade in the selection process. Incidentally, the defence procurement policy and Central Vigilance Commission guidelines do not allow the L-2 (Typhoon) to re-enter the negotiations.
As was first reported by TOI, even though 90% of the draft contract is ready, the finalization of the complex MMRCA project has been stuck for almost a year now due to Dassault’s reluctance to stand guarantee for the fighters to be made in India in terms of liquidity damages and production timelines.

Sources said defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the “empowered” delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to “fast-track” the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.

“The ball is firmly in the French court. India cannot allow any violation of the RFP in such a mega project, nor can it afford to let the negotiations drag on endlessly. A final call has to be taken, one way or the other,” said the source.

If the MMRCA project is indeed scrapped, it will bring to an end the mega fighter selection process launched by India way back in August 2007. This “mother of all defence deals” had global aviation majors salivating at the prospect of bagging the lucrative deal.

After extensive field trials by IAF test pilots, Swedish Gripen, Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 ‘Super Hornet’ and F-16 ‘Super Viper’ were ejected out of the high-voltage competition.

Subsequently, the commercial bids of the two remaining contenders — Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS), backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, and French Rafale (Dassault) – were opened in November 2011.

Rafale was then declared the winner in January 2012, having beaten the Typhoon both on direct cost of acquisition as well as “life-cycle costs” of operating the fighters over a 40-year period with 6,000 hours of flying. But the final commercial negotiations with Dassault have progressed at a glacial pace since then.

 

[Gandhi follower]

Parrikar writing a letter to his French counterpart asking where is their Negotiation team and when will it come to India suggests French are not serious and Deal is Gone case .

 

[Indian_Patriot]

Really hope the deal falls through. From a strategic POV, the Rafale is totally unnecessary.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Parrikar writing a letter to his French counterpart asking where is their Negotiation team and when will it come to India suggests French are not serious and Deal is Gone case .

Times of India reported today that India defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the "empowered" delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to "fast-track" the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.

TNN reported a part of the news though

The whole news was
India wants closure on the MMRCA deal to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.

followed by DM writing mail as this was part of fast track process

 

[Gandhi follower]

Times of India reported today that India defence minister Manohar Parrikar has written to his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian that India was still awaiting the "empowered" delegation he had promised to send to resolve the imbroglio. The two ministers had decided to "fast-track" the negotiations during talks in New Delhi on December 1.

TNN reported a part of the news though

The whole news was
India wants closure on the MMRCA deal to buy 126 Dassault Rafale fighters before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France and Germany in April.

followed by DM writing mail as this was part of fast track process

That is the point sir, when french minister met parikar he assured to send a empowered delegation to negotiate the deal. now Parikar is sending reminders.

IAF should take blame for not having a plan B. who made this stupid clause that we can't negotiate with L2 !