Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[sancho]

Why do you forget to mention the opposite view, the diplomat that said to jorno read the RFP, there is nothing like full liability of OEM?

Which diplomate said that? Any Indian official?

CNC (indian gov.)do not trust HAL. As simple as that (be they right or wrong is another debate). So they want to ADD a clause that wasn't in RFP about liability.

Which is plain wrong, because if that would had been the case, the NDA government had agreed to Dassaults try to divert greater workshare to Reliance and would not keep insisting on Dassault fulfilling the original requirements. Nobody other than Dassault is complaining about HAL here and that with obvious double standards and the government is clear about the workshare, because they want Dassault to be hold accountable, just as BAE is for example for the Hawk deal.

When International oil market is having lower prices and even international gold prices are down then why is this that the cost of the fighter plane is not decreasing but keep on increasing ?

The one has nothing to do with the other. Fighters with more upgrades gets costlier, fighters that will not be produced in large numbers will remain at high costs.

 

[Hindustani78]

The one has nothing to do with the other. Fighters with more upgrades gets costlier, fighters that will not be produced in large numbers will remain at high costs.

Dassault has lost out bids for the aircraft in Singapore, Morocco, South Korea, Norway, Netherlands, Brazil, Switzerland and UAE too rejected Rafale and its India which has agreed for the Rafale fighter plane and this deal in real is more important for Dassault as it would create 10,000 jobs and already French Government has invested enough in the development of this fighter plane.

This deal would be good not only for the French but even for EU over all and India will be more closer to EU in many aspects.

 

[sancho]

Dassault has lost out bids for the aircraft in Singapore, Morocco, South Korea, Norway, Netherlands, Brazil, Switzerland and UAE too rejected Rafale and its India which has agreed for the Rafale fighter plane and this deal in real is more important for Dassault as it would create 10,000 jobs and already French Government has invested enough in the development of this fighter plane.

This deal would be good not only for the French but even for EU over all and India will be more closer to EU in many aspects.

You are mistaken, since only 18 fighters will be build in France and the content of the produced parts in India will constantly grow, therefor the jobs will mainly created in India, which is even the point of the whole competition, to increase the industrial capability in India.

 

[Hindustani78]

You are mistaken, since only 18 fighters will be build in France and the content of the produced parts in India will constantly grow, therefor the jobs will mainly created in India, which is even the point of the whole competition, to increase the industrial capability in India.

You are saying that all the spares of that fighter plane will be produced in India ? India is already having the industrial capabilities within India , Do you think that HAL is not having industrial capabilities ? By successfully conducting LCA maiden flight , India has given the signal that its having Industrial capabilities. Those jobs will be created for EU nationals

Way back in 2013 , there were article that French is going to cut Military staff

France to cut military staff by 12 percent in six-year budget| Reuters

 

[sancho]

You are saying that all the spares of that fighter plane will be produced in India ?

No, the aim is to bring the content produced in India up to 70 or 80%, with the rest being supplied by French companies, but that small ammount will be covered by the exisiting production capabilities in France and don't add new once. Since the MKI deal, we are trying to get more and more independent from the OEM, wrt spare supply, maintenance and upgrades and with MMRCA, we try to close the gaps that the MKI deal had. That's why we demand higher ToT, higher offsets and more liability of the vendor for the whole production line, because we have seen with the Russians in MKI, the Brits in Hawk and (partially with) the French in Scorpene deals, how the production in India can be messed up, if the vendor does not support the whole license production and then India has to pay extra at the end, if not properly covered with by being able to produce the necessary parts in India, or if we can't hold the vendor accountable.

 

[CONNAN]

Rafale Deal: Ball is in France’s court, says India


The multi—billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France’s court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi—30 MKI warplanes as a back—up plan.

The multi—billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France’s court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi—30 MKI warplanes as a back—up plan.

India is insisting that Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale, cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.

The situation has come to such a level that France has been forced to send an empowered delegation later this month to “solve all remaining issues” to salvage the contract.

A top Defence Ministry official here had this week admitted that there were problems and said India could consider buying more Russian—made Sukhoi—30 planes if the proposed deal with France collapsed.

Recalling the last month’s meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart, sources said French “were told categorically to stick to the RFP”.

“The ball is in France’s court,” the sources said adding that if the “RFP is adhered to, the deal can be wrapped up soon”.

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs. 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a “little more than double the cost”.

Dassault did not comment on queries sent by PTI to it.

The French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only one left standing after years of tests on technical and other aspects.

“Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder,” the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal - The Economic Times

 

[Harisudan]

then how we are going to interpret French drawing ?

Those who know Russian Engineering design knows very well that, they follow a completely different standard in terms of Engineering..Probably GOST standard..
Where as French follow, ISO standars, which even Indians follow..That way it will be easy..

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@sancho
Bro, do you think the French are going to crack, or is it that the Ruski will come with some better options.

 

[Hindustani78]

No, the aim is to bring the content produced in India up to 70 or 80%, with the rest being supplied by French companies, but that small ammount will be covered by the exisiting production capabilities in France and don't add new once. Since the MKI deal, we are trying to get more and more independent from the OEM, wrt spare supply, maintenance and upgrades and with MMRCA, we try to close the gaps that the MKI deal had. That's why we demand higher ToT, higher offsets and more liability of the vendor for the whole production line, because we have seen with the Russians in MKI, the Brits in Hawk and (partially with) the French in Scorpene deals, how the production in India can be messed up, if the vendor does not support the whole license production and then India has to pay extra at the end, if not properly covered with by being able to produce the necessary parts in India, or if we can't hold the vendor accountable.

India do have industrial capabilities but still why the cost is increasing ?


So we are going to take F3 standard .

• Interception and air-to-air combat with 30mm gun and Mica IR/EM missiles (+ Meteor missiles from 2018 onwards).
• Ground support with 30mm gun, GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs and Hammer precision-guided bombs.
• In depth strikes with Scalp cruise missiles.
• Sea strikes with the Exocet AM39 Block 2 missile and other air-to-surface weapons.
• Real-time strategic and tactical reconnaissance with the Areos pod.
• In-flight refueling from one Rafale to another (“buddy-buddy”).
• Nuclear deterrence with the ASMP-A missile.

Rafale M10 recently were delivered to French Navy based on F1 Standard in October. Rafale M for carrier based operations, and Rafale B and C for conventional airfield based operations.

 

[$@rJen]

Rafale Deal: Ball is in France’s court, says India






Sunday, January 04, 2015

By : The Hindu




The multi—billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France’s court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi—30 MKI warplanes as a back—up plan.

• The multi—billion dollar Rafale fighter jet contract with France has run into rough weather over a guarantee clause and steep rise in price with India making it clear that the ball is in France’s court as it looks at the option of buying more Russian Sukhoi—30 MKI warplanes as a back—up plan.
  
  India is insisting that Dassault Aviation, which manufactures Rafale, cannot renege on the Request for Proposal (RFP) clauses, which it had initially agreed to.
  
  The situation has come to such a level that France has been forced to send an empowered delegation later this month to “solve all remaining issues” to salvage the contract.
  
  A top Defence Ministry official here had this week admitted that there were problems and said India could consider buying more Russian—made Sukhoi—30 planes if the proposed deal with France collapsed.
  
  Recalling the last month’s meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart, sources said French “were told categorically to stick to the RFP”.
  
  “The ball is in France’s court,” the sources said adding that if the “RFP is adhered to, the deal can be wrapped up soon”.
  
  They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs. 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a “little more than double the cost”.
  
  Dassault did not comment on queries sent by PTI to it.
  
  The French Rafale and European Eurofighter Typhoon were the only one left standing after years of tests on technical and other aspects.
  
  “Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder,” the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.
  
  Another point of contention is the guarantee clause under which Rafale has to stand guarantee for the planes that would be manufactured by state-owned HAL.
  
  As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest 108 manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

 

[halloweene]

As we are in 2015, should be an indiaized F3-R standard.

Please paste the entire article. It is also mentioned that a high diplomatic french source said "read RFP by yourself, there is no such clause"

 

[Hindustani78]

As we are in 2015, should be an indiaized F3-R standard.

Please paste the entire article. It is also mentioned that a high diplomatic french source said "read RFP by yourself, there is no such clause"

F3 Standard is like upgrades from the same F1 Standard. GoI should even go for Rafale M because India is having even Aircraft Carrier.

 

[sancho]

@sancho
Bro, do you think the French are going to crack, or is it that the Ruski will come with some better options.

The only better option the Russians can offer is Pak FA, but that comes with higher costs and is not a solution for MMRCAs that is meant to take over the bulk of IAF operations complementing the MKI. I hope Dassault (not the French in general) will come to their senses and aim on fixing the deal finally.

 

[Dillinger]

The only better option the Russians can offer is Pak FA, but that comes with higher costs and is not a solution for MMRCAs that is meant to take over the bulk of IAF operations complementing the MKI. I hope Dassault (not the French in general) will come to their senses and aim on fixing the deal finally.

At this point even if they come to their senses the MoD might try to scuttle the deal. The capital outlay of the previous years and the current year have no provision yet for paying the percentage of acquisition cost required as the first payment. Unless some fresh outlay is mandated over and above the current allocation in the upcoming budget it is unlikely that the deal will fly through in 2015.

 

[Gandhi follower]

Rafale has taken India for a ride. They intentionally delayed the deal. Now cost has been more than double. India should shut the door. This is our hard earned money, Govt should not waste it for Rafale. Go for MKI and Mig29.