Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[jha]

@sancho I think we should seriously look at alternatives in case this does not work out. For the first time, I am not 100% confident. I think we should start discussion with EF or Grippen, what do you say? We should explore at-least one more deal in parallel, like discussing the offset clause. That way we can get a replacement sooner.


What is the sweet deal?

Faster and cheaper flankers most probably.

 

[Hindustani78]

a) USA has not agreed to Transfer of Technology for f-16 and f-18
b) the shell life for these 2 planes is less now as they were developed in late 70s and early 80s..comparatively rafale and EF are new and they can b by IAF for a very long time...foe 3-4 decades with upgrades

Here only the option is open and during the visit of President Obama , GoI can talk regarding technology transfer and if we get better deal from United states then we can move ahead.

Global Hawk deal even get finalized in which Indian navy is showing interest.

 

[Donatello]

Well my confidence level on Dassault is constantly reducing since 2012, since they didn't aimed on getting the most out for the fighter, but mainly at benefits for them as a company. We can't blame them for negotiating with their best interest in mind, that's business, but "their" best interest was not the best interest for the fighter!
The alternative to Rafale remains to be the EF, since it was selected as the L2 and therefor as the 2nd option for negotiations, while Rafale was the "prefered" option. If the L1 doesn't offer what we wanted, logic tells us to talk to the L2 and as I explained in post #31, the EF is actually the fastes option to counter ruduction of squad numbers, if we are ok with T3A's and more fighters from European production lines. The only problem with EF is the high costs, which even if reduced after the election, should be still higher than the Rafale.
Gripen is out of question since it's under development only and performance specs as well as costs keep changing till the final production version will be available.

Contracts like these take time, doesn't matter whether you are purchasing a combat aircraft or a civilian airliner. Take for example the current pending case of the Japanese Airline Skymark, who ordered A380s, Airbus built them and then Skymark went bust and Airbus is suing them for lost revenue. With complex machines and billions of dollars, there will always be conflicting interests. In a contract each side will secure it's own interest.
If Dassault loses the deal, it affect their industry, but they won't be extinct. India on the other hand will lose a capable future asset which they themselves picked as number 1 for a reason. Now, the longer this gets delayed, the longer it will take to complete the program. If they haven't managed to sign the contract, just imagine what issues are gonna pop up when delivery begins, and above all, local assembly begins. So unless IAF increases the numbers now, squadron strength is gonna reduce anyway in the next 5-10 years.

 

[sancho]

Is there anything wrong with the Author ?

He is known to report a lot of BS just to sensationalise things, his knowledge in the aviation field is especially low.

If Dassault loses the deal, it affect their industry, but they won't be extinct. India on the other hand will lose a capable future asset which they themselves picked as number 1 for a reason.

On the contrary, losing the M-MRCA is a big hit for Rafale (not for Dassault though), since it's export potential will be even further lowered. Dassault is hoping to reduce costs of the fighter by producing parts in India, they even tried to provide Switzerland with a lower offer after Indian selected Rafale as L1.
For India on the other side, the options are still open. Within M-MRCA itself, the EF stands with the same, if not even more industrial advantages that we aim on and even in the worst case scenarion and the M-MRCA is cancelled, at least the operational capability of the IAF can be countered to an extend with more LCAs and MKIs, even if that's not the ideal situation IAF has hoped for.

So unless IAF increases the numbers now, squadron strength is gonna reduce anyway in the next 5-10 years.

The squadron number is a hyped issue and the increase of the order doesn't change anything, since the capacity of production is the important point. Even if we order 200 Rafales today, we will get only 1 squad till 2018, because the production line can't offer more at the moment, while we would get far more EF's, could order additional MKIs from Irkut or increase the production capacity of LCA MK1 and add another squadron too. Even without M-MRCA we would have 34 squads by 2019, before LCA MK2 and FGFA would come in.

 

[Hindustani78]

He is known to report a lot of BS just to sensationalise things, his knowledge in the aviation field is especially low..

But here its a known fact that DRDO Chief showed interest in Saab Gripen.

 

[sancho]

But here its a known fact that DRDO Chief showed interest in Saab Gripen.

So? That has no importance to the M-MRCA, since IAF / MoD have rejected the fighter. DRDO only was interested in learning from Saab, since it's a similar class of fighter as LCA, but that's what I said comes far too late, they should had teamed up with Saab at the begining, not at the end.

 

[Hindustani78]

So? That has no importance to the M-MRCA, since IAF / MoD have rejected the fighter. DRDO only was interested in learning from Saab, since it's a similar class of fighter as LCA, but that's what I said comes far too late, they should had teamed up with Saab at the begining, not at the end.

Here its more about technology transfers and if Saab group is already for that then DRDO still can go for Tejas Airframes and engines.

Have recently gone through one article , be it Eurofighter and Rafale , the profit will be going to Airbus, France and Marcel Dassault family industrial group (GIMD). i do know that this deal would be most important for France and EU . in Airbus France, Germany and the UK will get the profit. Hope Indians even in EU will get some benefits in all this at least some dignity and respect.



French state and Airbus play chess with Dassault shares | Ares

 

[Harisudan]

Su-30s ordered till date are supposed to enter IAF by 2019 if I am not wrong. Ordering another hundred of these will run the production line for another 5 years ( If a new production line is not created for these extra planes ).

Su-30MKI is being produced now in HAL from Raw materials. Just count the number of years HAL has taken to absorb the TOT. We can safely assume Rafale's will take similar time. That means HAL will either assemble from kits manufactured by OEMs from France ( with manufacturing fe sub systems ofcourse to show off as TOT ) or, take its own sweet time to absorb TOT. In either case, there is no use to spend so much money as the planes will come too late for augmenting the falling numbers.



Both are big IFs.



First MRCA choice was Mirage. Later the competition was opened up for rather heavy fighters like Rafale, Typhoon and SH. LCA-II will be in similar class of Mirage.



If Scorpene deal is any indication, we Will pay ~$ 20 Bill. for 126 planes itself. There always will be some difficulty or, other on our Industries to deliver sub-systems in time and we will be forced to source them from OEMs, jacking up the cost.



Thats why local Aerospace industries should be encouraged by investing in them. If France's decision to block Russian Mistral ( which was paid by Russia ) is any indication, they are no more neutral and are influenced by NATO's decisions. We should be careful with them as well.

Man, trust me, the Time taken for absorbing the Russian TOT will definitely be more than that of the French one..U know how much pain in the A$$ it was to interpret the Russian drawings that comes from Irkut..
We always had to ring back the Russians to clarify the Doubts..
it was nasty and messy..

 

[halloweene]

Last round of negociations starting in incoming days ("off" information). Every side will try pressuring the other. Common practice.

 

[sancho]

Every side will try pressuring the other. Common practice.

Just that Dassault is not in the position to put pressure on India, it either remains stubborn and don't comply to the requirements, or it moves on for the sake of the Rafale itself.
Indias stand is clear for years, be it the former MoD, the current MoD or IAF, all of them insist on Dassault complying to the requirements and if Dassault can't it's either the L2 is the alternative, while the back up plan for the M-MRCA tender as such, would be LCAs and MKIs (although I would prefer Pak Fa directly from Russia).

 

[Mujraparty]

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a "little more than double the cost".

"Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder," the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

Read more at:
Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal - The Economic Times

 

[sancho]

"Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder," the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

That's BS, neither was the cost between L1 and L2 reported to be close, nor did we negotiated the costs for all these years, but we waited for Dassault to comply to the tender requirements. Cost negotiations in fact, could only have started after MoD approved the ToT and offset bid of Dassault. Not to forget, that if the costs had doubled, we the EF would be cheaper now and MoD would have started talking to them long ago.

There is no official and NAMED source of the MoD or IAF, that ever stated an issue based on costs, the whole problem is based on workshare and contract issues!

 

[PARIKRAMA]

As i said in another thread, lets wait for Rafale related french delegation to come for the talks. We would know if Rafale deal is thru or not, post that will also come to know about the actual cost.

Till that time the decision in real is out (contract signing) its gonna be a kite flying festival with all sharpened manjas (thread) with lots of khech (pulling) and dheel (letting the thread easy)

 

[halloweene]

Just that Dassault is not in the position to put pressure on India, it either remains stubborn and don't comply to the requirements, or it moves on for the sake of the Rafale itself.
Indias stand is clear for years, be it the former MoD, the current MoD or IAF, all of them insist on Dassault complying to the requirements and if Dassault can't it's either the L2 is the alternative, while the back up plan for the M-MRCA tender as such, would be LCAs and MKIs (although I would prefer Pak Fa directly from Russia).

Why do you forget to mention the opposite view, the diplomat that said to jorno read the RFP, there is nothing like full liability of OEM?
CNC (indian gov.)do not trust HAL. As simple as that (be they right or wrong is another debate). So they want to ADD a clause that wasn't in RFP about liability.

 

[Hindustani78]

Man, trust me, the Time taken for absorbing the Russian TOT will definitely be more than that of the French one..U know how much pain in the A$$ it was to interpret the Russian drawings that comes from Irkut..
We always had to ring back the Russians to clarify the Doubts..
it was nasty and messy..

then how we are going to interpret French drawing ?

Last round of negociations starting in incoming days ("off" information). Every side will try pressuring the other. Common practice.

I think GoI will decide after 26th January

They claimed that while the deal was initially for about Rs 42,000 crore, French are seeking a higher price now. This, the sources said, has put the price at a "little more than double the cost".

"Rafale was selected in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder. The difference in cost with the second bidder was razor thin. With cost now more than double, how can it be the lowest bidder," the sources said, explaining why the negotiation for a final contract has been taking so much time.

Read more at:
Ball is in France's court: India on Rafale deal - The Economic Times

Here its even about technology transfer and guarantee of the spares and the biggest thing is cost. When oil prices are low in international market then why the price is increasing instead of decreasing.

That's BS, neither was the cost between L1 and L2 reported to be close, nor did we negotiated the costs for all these years, but we waited for Dassault to comply to the tender requirements. Cost negotiations in fact, could only have started after MoD approved the ToT and offset bid of Dassault. Not to forget, that if the costs had doubled, we the EF would be cheaper now and MoD would have started talking to them long ago.

There is no official and NAMED source of the MoD or IAF, that ever stated an issue based on costs, the whole problem is based on workshare and contract issues!

When International oil market is having lower prices and even international gold prices are down then why is this that the cost of the fighter plane is not decreasing but keep on increasing ?