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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

No disrespect gentlemen, I was not saying its impossible for DA to make 36 jets in 36 months, but impossible for DA to deliver it all to India in 36 months.

My argument being:

36 months from 2016 - Lets call it 2019 end.

2017

1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt
Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.

Source: http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html and multiple official documents.

Order Backlog 2017 End: France(31) Egypt(15) Qatar (24) India (36) = 131 units

2018 - 2019

24 months = 22 production months

2/month = 44 jets in 2 years

I'd personally be really surprised if France delivers 36 jets to India while only 8 jets get delivered to Qatar & Egypt combined in 2 years. Which is nearly 2 jets a year to both customers?

3/month looks highly unlikely unless more orders flows in. Also keep in consideration that option clause for Egypt will be placed only upon delivery of first 24 jets. At 33/year output, the current order book of 106 jets (including 31 French units) won't last beyond 2021? Or excluding French orders, it wont last end of 2020. Makes no economical sense for such a ramp up unless another tranche of orders are placed.

P.S: Just assumptions and personal opinion after all.

Good Day!

For India, the financial year goes up to March, while for France, it ends in December. Anyway, in 2018, production may only be 22 jets, but in 2019 it can be increased to 33. If this happens, which is realistic, Dassault can produce 27 jets for India by December 2019, or all 36 by March 2020.

It would be even better if production touches 27 jets, at 2.5/month by mid 2018. Then all 36 can likely be produced by December 2019.
 
Cty0P2RXYAAA_MB.jpg


Whats 152 NM on the right? And whats 1 written below it?

Cty0RdWWcAAGog6.jpg


In this picture, the radar seems to be in Surveillance mode (SURV) - In that a written number you see is 287 parallel to the right of SURV. Is that 287 NM? Is that the tracking and scanning range or just scanning range?


152 NM - 280 Km
287 NM = 531 Km

The above are some of the pictures i am trying to find of the cockpit and perhaps the HMDS pic to see what numbers it popping to the pilot..

Underlying Reason

Can anyone detail this and compare it with a MKI Bars radar? Purely the scanning range perspective and later the other capabilities..

Reason - There seems to be a view with MOD as per source that Rafale AESA RBE2 Radar enables a much better scanning and sourcing of targets then present PESA ones in MKI, even though BARS internally has been upgraded a lot. Source does not quote too much on numbers but of course multiple target tracking as well as capacity to see through the airspace seems to showcase a much better quality and information perspective.

Again this seems to suggest as per the source , contrary to earlier thoughts of MKI working as Mini Awacs and Rafale going passive strategy, it seems there is a much wider view that Rafale may go active in front in small numbers (just 1 or 2 max) and plot the whole course with information relayed to fleet behind like MKI who will process the data and get assigned accordingly for engaging the target.

Of course this assumes the intense AD and EW environment survivability is highest for Rafale as compared to other aircraft in our fleet .. But whats surprising is the comments that its Radar ie RBE 2 AESA gives a much longer range as well..

This brings me to critically the next question.. Did we use MKI with maximum operable power under standard conditions for the radar or we have kind of used a lower grade due to some constraints like heat emissions and life of the radar.. Bcz if its this case then again theoretical test range versus practical application will have a much wider implication.

@Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @MilSpec @Abingdonboy @zebra7
Can you guys help me understand this..
 
In this picture, the radar seems to be in Surveillance mode (SURV) - In that a written number you see is 287 parallel to the right of SURV. Is that 287 NM? Is that the tracking and scanning range or just scanning range?


152 NM - 280 Km
287 NM = 531 Km

The above are some of the pictures i am trying to find of the cockpit and perhaps the HMDS pic to see what numbers it popping to the pilot..

Guessing. Those are probably the distances to the next way point.

Can anyone detail this and compare it with a MKI Bars radar? Purely the scanning range perspective and later the other capabilities..

We don't have specs for either.

And AESA is always better than PESA, not just for range. Some MKIs have lower end Bars and some have higher end Bars. Some will get the Irbis upgrade, some will get AESA upgrade.
 
I'd personally be really surprised if France delivers 36 jets to India while only 8 jets get delivered to Qatar & Egypt combined in 2 years. Which is nearly 2 jets a year to both customers?
You're right man !
Qatar contract request 11 plane/year for 2018, so India will never received its 36 planes in just two years.
 
... while only 8 jets get delivered to Qatar & Egypt combined in 2 years.

Huh, not exactly Rick mate or at least consider why :
The Qatari jets are not pushed until their standard is defined;
the first one delivered is meant for IOC for testing and use in
Qatar in order to refine that very standard. 2018 for the rest.

Your number is then that of partial count since by year's end,
6 and 3 will have come out for Egypt and France. That's two
lesser than a regular year because the line has begun its a-
daptation. It is in 2017 that the output will really suffer with as
little as 4 planes coming out.

Then you get to 2018 which Trappier described as the Year of the Rafale.
At that point, the line will have widened and what was needed
to plan output was the very Indian deal which just passed and
will be completed soon.

True, there will be Egyptian ACs left & the Qataris will be getting
their planes then and the former may activate their option as
soon as they get their last regular one.* But we don't know the
exact rate the line will then support. As you surely know and as
our colleague rightfully pointed out above, the choice is not bet-
ween 2 and 3 Rafales per month, it needs not be an integer.


I also wish to point out that the deal will only be valid once both
the offsets and provisional check have come through and that
the 36 months should begin once they are only.
But if we remember MII is already being prepared, those 6 months
to a year may be shortened and or subtracted.

Last but not least, that was a "side interview" of Manohar Parrikar,
an infamous practice of his in my view as most know. He once again
tried to play media darling by outing something new out of context.
And he only said that the first jets might be there sooner than 36 months.

So, Sept/Oct 2016 + 6 months = March 2017 ( our elections :eek: ).
March 2017 + 36 months = March 2020.
Take out the 6 months for formalities thanks to MII and get end of 2019.

As you were however answering RandomR's quote of a source he trusts,
I'll
let him defend it further as I doubt its veracity too. 24 months from now
for Indian planes is not credible if the engines are uprated for instance
because Thales has offered that development but not completed it. How
fast could they make one? Dassault will likely have time for trials if it comes
next week but if it takes 20 months, forget IOC in less than 24 months, much
less max output line rate. But they are great at crash programs so who knows?

At Parik,
down right at the right bottom an altimeter with degrees of direction as well...
Artificial horizon would be a better name, would it not?

As for range, noting first that your pic seems to be taken over the sea,
apply this quote by a Thales spokesperson about it to the PESA RBE2 :

"In terms of performance, detection range is increased by considerably more than 50% and the radar can look in many directions at the same time offering significantly enhanced tracking capabilities."
Practical estimate from me to you : 180km detection and TWS of 40 targets.

But related to your MKI Bars question, do understand the importance of LPI
and multi beams to get why it may be so.

And great early ( it's pre-dawn here ) day all, Tay.


*
That honestly stems from their having signed first ...
 
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upload_2016-10-3_12-58-23.png

upload_2016-10-3_12-58-42.png


+++
Reliance Defence Wins Big in Aftermath of Rafale Deal
BY ANUJ SRIVAS ON 03/10/2016
According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the Rafale offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in.

A Rafale fighter jet. Credit: Reuters

New Delhi: Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence has been chosen as Dassault Aviation’s Indian strategic partner and will form a joint venture that will “be a key player in the execution of offset obligations” that arise from the recent purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets.

The 36 fighter jets that were acquired by India recently were purchased for almost 8 billion euros and came with a 50% offset clause: this offset clause ensures that 50% of the deal’s amount needs to be invested into the Indian defence ecosystem.

Reliance Defence, according to a press release issued, will be one of the primary Indian partners that will “develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer” as a result of the Rafale offset clause. The joint venture, according to Reliance executives, will indirectly benefit the entire aerospace sector.

“The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar,” the statement read.

Ambani, in a statement, announced that this was a transformational moment for the Indian aerospace sector and for Reliance Infrastructure’s subsidiary Reliance Aerospace.

The Wire had earlier reported how in early 2015, three companies were in talks with Dassault and the Indian government for possible co-production opportunities that could have arisen from the Rafale deal. The three companies were Bharat Electronics, Noida-based Samtel and Reliance Defence Systems.

According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in as a result of the Rafale deal.
http://thewire.in/70450/reliance-defence-wins-big-aftermath-rafale-deal/
++++

September 26
upload_2016-10-3_13-2-47.png

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-383#post-8730988

September 2
upload_2016-10-3_13-4-58.png

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-308#post-8642154

+++
Bulls eye ...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others
 
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http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...ssault-aviation-setjoint-venture_7561081.html

"This new joint venture called Dassault Reliance Aerospace will support Prime Minister Modi's Make in India and Skill India policies and develop major Indian programmes with high levels of technology transfer to benefit the entire aerospace sector," it added. The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM programme (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar.

Read more at: http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...t-venture_7561081.html?utm_source=ref_article

http://www.indiainfoline.com/articl...ssault-reliance-aerospace-116100300083_1.html
"This new joint venture called “Dassault Reliance Aerospace” will support Prime Minister Modi’s “Make in India” and “Skill India” policies and develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer to benefit the entire aerospace sector.

The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting Research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar."

There you go PariK my friend, it's out for real, Tay.
 
View attachment 340194
View attachment 340195

+++
Reliance Defence Wins Big in Aftermath of Rafale Deal
BY ANUJ SRIVAS ON 03/10/2016
According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the Rafale offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in.

A Rafale fighter jet. Credit: Reuters

New Delhi: Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence has been chosen as Dassault Aviation’s Indian strategic partner and will form a joint venture that will “be a key player in the execution of offset obligations” that arise from the recent purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets.

The 36 fighter jets that were acquired by India recently were purchased for almost 8 billion euros and came with a 50% offset clause: this offset clause ensures that 50% of the deal’s amount needs to be invested into the Indian defence ecosystem.

Reliance Defence, according to a press release issued, will be one of the primary Indian partners that will “develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer” as a result of the Rafale offset clause. The joint venture, according to Reliance executives, will indirectly benefit the entire aerospace sector.

“The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar,” the statement read.

Ambani, in a statement, announced that this was a transformational moment for the Indian aerospace sector and for Reliance Infrastructure’s subsidiary Reliance Aerospace.

The Wire had earlier reported how in early 2015, three companies were in talks with Dassault and the Indian government for possible co-production opportunities that could have arisen from the Rafale deal. The three companies were Bharat Electronics, Noida-based Samtel and Reliance Defence Systems.

According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in as a result of the Rafale deal.
http://thewire.in/70450/reliance-defence-wins-big-aftermath-rafale-deal/
++++

September 26
View attachment 340196
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-383#post-8730988

September 2
View attachment 340198
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-308#post-8642154

+++
Bulls eye ...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others
:victory:

NOTE : Is this the same reliance with the Ship yard? ... They are winning quite a few contracts
 
View attachment 340194
View attachment 340195

+++
Reliance Defence Wins Big in Aftermath of Rafale Deal
BY ANUJ SRIVAS ON 03/10/2016
According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the Rafale offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in.

A Rafale fighter jet. Credit: Reuters

New Delhi: Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence has been chosen as Dassault Aviation’s Indian strategic partner and will form a joint venture that will “be a key player in the execution of offset obligations” that arise from the recent purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets.

The 36 fighter jets that were acquired by India recently were purchased for almost 8 billion euros and came with a 50% offset clause: this offset clause ensures that 50% of the deal’s amount needs to be invested into the Indian defence ecosystem.

Reliance Defence, according to a press release issued, will be one of the primary Indian partners that will “develop major Indian programs with high levels of technology transfer” as a result of the Rafale offset clause. The joint venture, according to Reliance executives, will indirectly benefit the entire aerospace sector.

“The proposed strategic partnership between Dassault and Reliance will also focus on promoting research and development projects under the IDDM program (Indigenously Designed, Developed and Manufactured), a new initiative of India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar,” the statement read.

Ambani, in a statement, announced that this was a transformational moment for the Indian aerospace sector and for Reliance Infrastructure’s subsidiary Reliance Aerospace.

The Wire had earlier reported how in early 2015, three companies were in talks with Dassault and the Indian government for possible co-production opportunities that could have arisen from the Rafale deal. The three companies were Bharat Electronics, Noida-based Samtel and Reliance Defence Systems.

According to sources, while Bharat Electronics and Samtel still may get a piece of the offset money, it is Reliance Defence that will execute a majority of the Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in as a result of the Rafale deal.
http://thewire.in/70450/reliance-defence-wins-big-aftermath-rafale-deal/
++++

September 26
View attachment 340196
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-383#post-8730988

September 2
View attachment 340198
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-308#post-8642154

+++
Bulls eye ...

@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec @Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito @SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer @dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact @Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222 @Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular @Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki @CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug @Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian @Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs] @Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss @jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @Crixus @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @AugenBlick @Star Wars @GuardianRED @arp2041 @Aero @Armani @salarsikander https://defence.pk/members/enquencher.34831/ @others



Rafale deal: Reliance, Dassault Aviation set up joint venture


://www.deccanchronicle.com/business/in-other-news/031016/rafale-deal-reliance-dassault-aviation-set-up-joint-venture.html
 

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