Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[[Bregs]]

Almost entire nation is actually against reliance Gp.

Both brothers have looted investors slowly after demise of there father, so how would an average indian is going to gave faith and trust in this group

 

[Trying to be honest]

My concern is largely with the chinese loans. They can be easily arm twisted.

 

[sathya]

Almost entire nation is actually against reliance Gp.

A company with zero experience given top most project.

Who won't be worried.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@PARIKRAMA won't comment on the RIL/MII speculation, I think it is far too early to be making links but it seems to be a step in the right direction (even though I am adverse to RIL's inclusion).

I would just like to discuss the past few pages regarding the delivery schedule. Many arguments for early delivery have centred around the fact that DA can theoretically step up production and thusspare capacity created for early Indian deliveries. However, if we think about this from a practical point of view, the production of the airframes is not the sole factor that will decide deliveries to India. We should not forget that as part of this deal €1.8BN is for Indian specific upgrades that include an as of yet untested/uncertified uprated engine and specific customer (India) nominated weapon/system integration work from third parties (BEL, RAFAEL, ELTA etc).

I'm sure the more informed members such as @Picdelamirand-oil , @halloweene , @BON PLAN , @Taygibay Etc can comment further about these sorts of things do not and cannot happen overnight. There are set procedures in place that will take their own course, no amount of wishes from the Indian side will change that.

It would be interesting to learn how the Rafale's industrial partners (Dassualt, Safran, Thales etc) have been preparing for the Indian contract (if they have) as clearly the Indian deal is far more complex and exhaustive than any other export deal thus far and will demand vastly more work, it isn't a case of a simple off the shelf delivery of the French standards.

Furthermore, it's not as though the IAF will be ready to accept the Rafale overnight, they will take time to get their SQN personnel (pilots, ground handlers, munitions techs, maintainers etc etc) trained in entirely new systems and procedures not to mention to set up the requisite infrastructure to fly, service, support and operate such complex machinery. The Rafale isn't simply a "plug and play" system, the IAF will have to work very hard to integrate it into their force.

This takes even greater significance when one considers that this is not simply a typical commercial deal but a govt to govt agreement (IGA) with many strategic stipulations. For instance, the legally binding clause that holds the French liable to ensure at least 75% of India's Rafale fleet is available at any one time. The French aren't going to want to rush and make stokes that they are then culpable for later down the road.

I would like to get past the production aspect of the Rafale and delve a little deeper to understand the details that lay within the sale of such a system to an airforce. This is just as vital to consider.

Interview of DM MP with CNBCTV18

CNBC-TV18 ‏@CNBCTV18Live 25m25 minutes ago
RS22000 cr export opportunity via Rafale deal for Indian industry;10% of Rafale deal value is related to Tech transfer @manoharparrikar exl
/ [U

Discounting the traditional caveats when it comes to ToT (degree of and specifics) let's not let this tidbit go ignored. India is paying a 10% premium for "ToT"; is anyone seriously going to try and make the case now that the French have agreed to part with some of their Crown Jewels for "just" €800m and 36 jets?

The dots are emerging slowly, it won't be too long before the media starts to connect them (well, it might actually, credible journalism is almost non-existent these days across the world).

 

[BON PLAN]

A company with zero experience given top most project.

Who won't be worried.

Some time it's better to learn from zero....

Dassault will help them. After all, making the airframe is not the harder thing in a combat plane (comparing to radar, engine, self defense suite...), even if with composite and titanium superplastic forming it's not soo easy than 30 years ago.

And DA will put all the security locks, don't be afraid.

 

[sathya]

Some time it's better to learn from zero....
Dassault will help them. And will put all the security locks, don't be afraid.

Hahaha you seem confident in Reliance ..
Even you shouldn't be.. They won't even blink before bypassing IPR .

But seriously only factor I do bank on is Dassault responsibility.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Some time it's better to learn from zero....
Dassault will help them. And will put all the security locks, don't be afraid.

I think this is a fair point. DA will be the senior partner hand holding RIL all the way who will be starting from scratch and implementing best practices from day one (effectively replicating DA's existing production line). All RIL has to do is provide the funds and work force (an obvious oversimplification but still).

HAL was never going to accept the junior partner role, TATA is tied up with many American firms and L&T are perhaps more interested in the LCA so RIL may have been DA's only option.

For whatever reason DA and RIL have been looking to work together for a while (under the original MMRCA RIL were to make the wings for the Rafale and supply them to HAL).

We may have doubts about RIL but I'm sure we can trust a giant like DA who themselves are putting themselves on the line and surely won't enter into agreements with a partner they can't trust to be successful when billions are on the line.

.

But seriously only factor I do bank on is Dassault responsibility.

Indeed and this is what will (hopefully) ensure success. Under the agreement DA will ne liable for the Rafale's made in India, under the MMRCA DA were bound by the same clause but refused to do so on behalf of work done by HAL.

 

[Gessler]

Thank god this deal was concluded in my lifetime.

Now let me just see IAF inducting it's first Rafale. Then I can die in peace.

 

[#hydra#]

Both brothers have looted investors slowly after demise of there father, so how would an average indian is going to gave faith and trust in this group

I know man,I hate that company a lot.... Slowly they are eating public's money ..

 

[punit]

Left and liberals will start making up stories with this Reliance link.

they already are !

Almost entire nation is actually against reliance Gp.

the lines outside Reliance Jio Stores tells otherwise !!

 

[randomradio]

Then I can die in peace.

Your life will actually be taking off then.

 

[surya kiran]

@Abingdonboy its not RIL. RIL is Mukesh Ambani. This is ADAG, Anil Ambani.

 

[[Bregs]]

@Abingdonboy its not RIL. RIL is Mukesh Ambani. This is ADAG, Anil Ambani.

It would have been much better if RIL had entered into defence arena as they have far deeper pockets and are in fact cash rich. ADAG is not fito to be into such a critical sector

 

[surya kiran]

It would have been much better if RIL had entered into defence arena as they have far deeper pockets and are in fact cash rich. ADAG is not fito to be into such a critical sector

They will not. You will see them restructure some stuff, over the next 5 years, off to BP and concentrate on Telecom and Retail, while retaining their core business. Even if they do get into defence, it will be due to request from the government and a side play. Not a core focus area.

 

[ranadd]

I see ADAG getting into it as a good sign. One of their focus was telecom. Which will get diluted soon to Jio. They are trying to bet into Heavy Engineering. Perhaps they are trying to create a portfolio similar to L&T.