Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Picdelamirand-oil]

SH avionics aren't much lower than Rafales

The Super Hornet is my indulgence master standard with respect to the Typhoon. As serious as the aircraft design flaws are, it will never be worse than the Super Hornet.

• Inability to pack AMRAAM at wing tip,
• Inability to carry a drop tank under the wing of the same side as the PDL because of the poor visibility of the pod,
• Necessity to offset wing pylons from the axis of the aircraft which results in the well-known consequences for dragged and RCS obviously,

The result of all this is the autonomy is barely higher than that of the Hornet: I think it is less than 10% more range on an air-ground task type, then the program required a 35% greater range.

 

[Agent_47]

We have to replace 250 Mig-21s and 120 Mig-27s. 40 MKI have replaced a bunch of them already. So there are still over 300 aircraft that need to be replaced with a single engine fighter.

So, 90 Rafale (90+36) as second order/ production line is confirmed and second order of improved LCA (120 + 140 atleast) is confirmed then it already fills the Mig numbers. What is the need for another single or double engine fighters ?

The more fighter lines are built, the faster the older jets will be replaced, and that also includes the Mig-29 and the remaining Jaguars. Even with just 39.5 squadrons sanctioned, IAF has operated 1000+ fighters in the past, particularly in the 90s when we had over 500 Mig-21, 250 Mig-27, 150 Jaguars, 150 Mig-23 etc. So the numbers in each squadron are simply a notional indicator of what a squadron is. The reality is dependent on funding for new and phasing out of the old. IAF saves more money by investing in new jets than keep old jets alive.

It doesn't matter how many we operated in past, what matter is threat perception. In old days a fighter is suppose to do a single job today a fighter like rafale can do job of 4. Planes are procured based on requirement not funding. Funding try to fulfill the requirements.

In last press conference air chief categorically said M29,M2K and jaugars will only start retiring after 2030 and we have more than ten years to prepare a medium fighter (AMCA).

HAL produced Mig 27 number is 165 and Jaugar number in IAF never crossed 125. Where do you make up these numbers ?

 

[R!CK]

Just my 2 cents on this issue. I think its unfair to compare Rafales with ASH. As a matter of fact, Rafale is expected to continue as the frontline aircraft for France, Qatar and Egypt. So there will definitely be an upgrade path to improve the aircraft further. But in an ideal world set out by LM, FA-18 will eventually be replaced by F-35 from US and Australian fleet. This sort of puts to question the future upgrade path for FA-18 with both the current operators already having a replacement aircraft in sight.
I'd think that the people who are responsible for making decisions will always consider this. The pricing or package which includes TOT will have to be significantly huge for someone to overlook the upgrade path issue for FA-18. But who knows, it might well be if the FA-18 is ordered as an additional project eventually.

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

So, 90 Rafale (90+36) as second order/ production line is confirmed and second order of improved LCA (120 + 140 atleast) is confirmed then it already fills the Mig numbers. What is the need for another single or double engine fighters ?

126 Rafale is confirmed.
120 LCA is confirmed. They are saying that's 8 squadrons. So I need to get that checked. There is no mention of 140 more.

It doesn't matter how many we operated in past, what matter is threat perception. In old days a fighter is suppose to do a single job today a fighter like rafale can do job of 4. Planes are procured based on requirement not funding. Funding try to fulfill the requirements.

See, this is very difficult to comment on. IAF has always operated a number of jets for CAS, we are replacing that with 100+ or more attack helicopters for the IAF alone, and IA wants another 200. Apart from that IAF wants to induct UCAVs also.

So the 42 squadrons will slowly end up becoming a real air force rather than a patchwork of multiple requirements.

Funding matters because Parrikar said that we may not be able to completely get all 42 squadrons either, he doesn't know yet. Which means funds will be a critical constraint if we go for more expensive fighters like the Rafale and the interim numbers of PAK FA in MII format. But if we go for multiple cheaper aircraft, then we will have to induct a decent number of at least 90 each to make the production viable. So the numbers can go anywhere.

And you have to see this with the IN included. You can't exclude them, their requirement is half that of the current IAF requirement and will increase after 2027.

In last press conference air chief categorically said M29,M2K and jaugars will only start retiring after 2030 and we have more than ten years to prepare a medium fighter (AMCA).

They will just put the aircraft in storage like other air forces do.

HAL produced Mig 27 number is 165 and Jaugar number in IAF never crossed 125. Where do you make up these numbers ?

We had 131 Jaguars in the 90s. Then we manufactured 37 more after the 2000s. But I made a mistake with the Mig-27, it is 165.

The actual numbers are pointless, the point was IAF had 1000+ fighters, you haven't counted older aircraft like the Gnats and Hunters that were still in service apart from the M-2000, Mig-29 and Mig-25.

IAF had a 3:1 numbers superiority over the PAF and we may eventually plan to have those numbers again, especially if we end up with that many production lines.

JThis sort of puts to question the future upgrade path for FA-18 with both the current operators already having a replacement aircraft in sight.

The F-16 faces the same issue.

 

[Taygibay]

So there will definitely be an upgrade path to improve the aircraft further.

There is, there ever was since that is what standards are all about,
bringing every plane ever built up to speed ... not Machs but so to speak!

This sort of puts to question the future upgrade path for FA-18

Which is not a major investment program anymore in 2016 ;
http://comptroller.defense.gov/Port...y2016/FY2016_Budget_Request_Overview_Book.pdf
and so unlikely to get significant development funding.

Have a good evening, Tay.

 

[R!CK]

126 Rafale is confirmed.
120 LCA is confirmed. They are saying that's 8 squadrons. So I need to get that checked. There is no mention of 140 more.

The F-16 faces the same issue.

1. 120 LCA will be 6 squadrons. Each LCA squadron will have 20 aircraft including 4 spares. However DMs statement of 8 squadrons in 8 years is contradicting.

2. Yes it does and that leaves just Rafale and Gripen as a credible option with some upgrade potential in the future. I was only speaking of F-18/Rafale in my previous post.

 

[zebra7]

i get it means its (GaA or GaN) just and antenna while the real work is done by the backend computers i have read some where that its (backend) main strength lies in how much ammount of peak power it can handle for example MKis radars peak power is 5Kw while new age conductors on latest GaN based AESA radars can handle upto 50-75 some even 100 Kw im not a computer guy please elaborate on it and how far indian backend on say LCA is capable of .. thanks in advance

Take a chill Pill and leave that for the fans who are interested in Who will Detect first formula persons. The Air Superiority fighter Jet like MKI, are not for hiding itself, and will use its Medium altitude, Big RCS, High power long range Radar loud and clear, because its the other aircraft such as MIG-21 Bison, Mirrage 2000 UPG or MIg 29 or even LCA Tejas or Rafale e in the forward location, keeping their radar in silent mode. and getting updates, and the enemy location via secured Data link and in India Case ODL-2 Operational Data LInk.

All the outputs of KW and no. of modules are for the theoretical calculation and that too in the Lab environment. The detection range depends on numerious parameters, and that includes the surface of the target detection also. No body needs the detection range of 200 KM in the fighter planes like LCA. So try to undestand like this, the out power of the radar is important, but you need the sensitive sensor also to catch the returning waveform, which is then analyse for the detection and there is an attenuation loss also in the Radar, which is never mentioned by any OEM, offcource they key it fairly well, and the pilot and the airforce who is using that radar, gets a fair idea of the radar losses, but again he will not disclose it.

As far as the MKI N011 Bars radar is concerned, if the 5KW output is available in the public domain, and the people starting doing calculation and evaluating, then why IAF kept its Radar, which is the main power of the MKI in the training mode, during the Red Flag exercise, and why was Russia concerned at that time with the decision of the IAF to participate in that exercise. But they have confidence in the IAF and the India, that they will never disclose the secrets of the Bars Radar to the west.

What is more important is that, India, have the Bars source code, and this is my calculated guess, because all its tests like Astra BVR, and in future any test would be from the MKI first.

@randomradio you keep on repeating same thing again and again, unless you have lot of free time, and leave the main question ?

1. Who told you that there is anything called LSA, and tell me which official, minister ever mentioned the word LSA.

2. Who told you there are 4 aircraft for the replacement of the MIg-21 and Mig 27, and from you are going to bring the money to buy so called F-16, and Gripen.

The cost of the LCA MK-1 together with the Infra and training is 45 Milion a piece, and for the Combat hawk, would be even lower. The Combat Hawk could be produced in number, because HAL has all the zigs and stucture and already produced 18 birds offcourse HAWK trainer.

And when we are talking about Combat Hawk, its different from the Hawk which is used as the Advance Jet Trainer by IAF. Combat Hawk would have IRST and Laser range finder on its nose, and if there is a demand for Radar, then the Radar in the Pod form EL/L-20600 is available.

 

[BON PLAN]

Take a chill Pill and leave that for the fans who are interested in Who will Detect first formula persons. The Air Superiority fighter Jet like MKI, are not for hiding itself, and will use its Medium altitude, Big RCS, High power long range Radar loud and clear, because its the other aircraft such as MIG-21 Bison, Mirrage 2000 UPG or MIg 29 or even LCA Tejas or Rafale e in the forward location, keeping their radar in silent mode. and getting updates, and the enemy location via secured Data link and in India Case ODL-2 Operational Data LInk.

All the outputs of KW and no. of modules are for the theoretical calculation and that too in the Lab environment. The detection range depends on numerious parameters, and that includes the surface of the target detection also. No body needs the detection range of 200 KM in the fighter planes like LCA. So try to undestand like this, the out power of the radar is important, but you need the sensitive sensor also to catch the returning waveform, which is then analyse for the detection and there is an attenuation loss also in the Radar, which is never mentioned by any OEM, offcource they key it fairly well, and the pilot and the airforce who is using that radar, gets a fair idea of the radar losses, but again he will not disclose it.

As far as the MKI N011 Bars radar is concerned, if the 5KW output is available in the public domain, and the people starting doing calculation and evaluating, then why IAF kept its Radar, which is the main power of the MKI in the training mode, during the Red Flag exercise, and why was Russia concerned at that time with the decision of the IAF to participate in that exercise. But they have confidence in the IAF and the India, that they will never disclose the secrets of the Bars Radar to the west.

What is more important is that, India, have the Bars source code, and this is my calculated guess, because all its tests like Astra BVR, and in future any test would be from the MKI first.

@randomradio you keep on repeating same thing again and again, unless you have lot of free time, and leave the main question ?

1. Who told you that there is anything called LSA, and tell me which official, minister ever mentioned the word LSA.

2. Who told you there are 4 aircraft for the replacement of the MIg-21 and Mig 27, and from you are going to bring the money to buy so called F-16, and Gripen.

The cost of the LCA MK-1 together with the Infra and training is 45 Milion a piece, and for the Combat hawk, would be even lower. The Combat Hawk could be produced in number, because HAL has all the zigs and stucture and already produced 18 birds offcourse HAWK trainer.

And when we are talking about Combat Hawk, its different from the Hawk which is used as the Advance Jet Trainer by IAF. Combat Hawk would have IRST and Laser range finder on its nose, and if there is a demand for Radar, then the Radar in the Pod form EL/L-2032 is available.

Combat Hawk is a very low end option : short legs, small weapon capacity, small radar, low self protection. Usefull for CAS in low or medium battlefield environment, and not too far from base. Not more. But in some case it will be enough.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

then the Radar in the Pod form EL/L-2032 is available

Could you please explain ; A Radar in a POD form ?

Fire control Radars are generally spherical / elliptical in shape and put in the nose cone

 

[zebra7]

Combat Hawk is a very low end option : short legs, small weapon capacity, small radar, low self protection. Usefull for CAS in low or medium battlefield environment, and not too far from base. Not more. But in some case it will be enough.

For the replacement for the MIG-21 for the similar role, you don't need F-22 or EF-2000.


1. All the bases of the Pakistan are close to the border.

2. Chinese main bases are too far away, even MKI would find it too far away.

3. Apart from the 300 MKI, we have 2 squardon of Mirrage 2000UPG, 3 squardon of MIG-29 UPG, and Upgraded Jaguar, and now Rafale, Do you think those Combat Hawk would fly over enemy without having the Air Dominance over the Enemy Airspace.

4. For the hardened target Brahmos from Land based, and soon A2G is available.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Combat Hawk is a very low end option : short legs, small weapon capacity, small radar, low self protection. Usefull for CAS in low or medium battlefield environment, and not too far from base. Not more. But in some case it will be enough.

Combat hawk will be excellent in attacking enemy ground troops -- not very deep
for eg -- say till 50 KM inside enemy territory

It has excellent range ; better than an attack helicopter can carry 3 Tonnes of load

It will work under suitable conditions ie having Air support from Mig 29 or LCA

By the way we have MODIFIED ; AN 32 transport plane to be used as a Bomber

It can drop TEN tonnes of Bombs on the enemy and obliterate any thing

 

[zebra7]

Could you please explain ; A Radar in a POD form ?

Fire control Radars are generally spherical / elliptical in shape and put in the nose cone

EL/L-2032 radar is for the planes who don't have radar installed in its nose or don't have space for it. Its the same radar EL/M-2032 which is installed inside the nose of the fighter plane but is in the shape of the Pod, which is mounted on the pylon of the aircraft.

following are the specs of ELTA 2032 from IAI Elbit website.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

EL/L-2032 radar is for the planes who don't have radar installed in its nose or don't have space for it. Its the same radar EL/M-2032 which is installed inside the nose of the fighter plane but is in the shape of the Pod, which is mounted on the pylon of the aircraft.

following are the specs of ELTA 2032 from IAI Elbit website.

Google only shows EL / M -2032

Is the EL / L 2032 still in production

Does any plane use the L 2032

 

[GURU DUTT]

EL/L-2032 radar is for the planes who don't have radar installed in its nose or don't have space for it. Its the same radar EL/M-2032 which is installed inside the nose of the fighter plane but is in the shape of the Pod, which is mounted on the pylon of the aircraft.

following are the specs of ELTA 2032 from IAI Elbit website.

so you mean we can have a AESA radar in a pod well thats a new thing so means theorcally we can we can have an X band AESA is nose cone and a smaller lighter L band AESA on a pod of the same Aircraft which i guess will make a plane like say MKI equivellent to a AWACS and Wia Data link command a small squad of LCA type fighters where we cant spare a AWACS right or existing MKIs can have a simillar EL2052 pod underbelly ... god that will so much time and money on having a full fleged super sukhoi MLU

 

[zebra7]

so you mean we can have a AESA radar in a pod well thats a new thing so means theorcally we can we can have an X band AESA is nose cone and a smaller lighter L band AESA on a pod of the same Aircraft which i guess will make a plane like say MKI equivellent to a AWACS and Wia Data link command a small squad of LCA type fighters where we cant spare a AWACS right or existing MKIs can have a simillar EL2052 pod underbelly ... god that will so much time and money on having a full fleged super sukhoi MLU

LOLZ, why would you need X band Aesa on the pod, when Pulse Doppler could be used. AESA is only needed for the interleaved operation for the Airborne and Ground target detection, and targetting. Theoratically it is possible to have the Radar in the form of the Pod, but since GaN based Aesa which could be fabricated on any surface, and of any shape, which @randomradio was talking should be the future and could be used on the wing forward edge.

Google only shows EL / M -2032

Is the EL / L 2032 still in production

Does any plane use the L 2032

Sorry mistyped EL/L-20600 to map the ground target. We are using such podded Radar (not -2032) in our Donier Do-228 for Naval survillance. I lost one picture fitted such pod.

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/0/41550.pdf

We are already have this POD, but that will suit bigger aircraft such as MKI or Mig-29

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/6/42026.pdf