Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

Growler is in a different league man, it's an electronic attack aircraft capable of locating and blinding even high powered modern ground based radars at long ranges. Rafale can't match growler in EW segment. If my memory is correct, growle is the only known f22 killer out there in bvr engagement exercise.

The Growler is obsolete compared to Rafale.

The Rafale has better hardware, AESA, and this has been upgraded to GaN now. And unlike the Growler, the Rafale is significantly more refined. Rafale basically does what the Growler does, but it does so without informing the enemy that their systems are being jammed.

The Growler screams while the Rafale only whispers. It's obvious the latter is better.

As for MKI, when I said it may not be as capable as the Growler, there are two reasons for that. One, the MKI is yet to be integrated with its own complete suite, right now it only carries a passive Indian suite with an active pod for jamming. And it is not known how the Russian SAP-14 and 518 behaves with the MKI's Indian/Israeli communication system. Basically, we need sensor fusion on our jet which will be coming with the MLU program.

 

[SQ8]

The Growler is obsolete compared to Rafale.

The Rafale has better hardware, AESA, and this has been upgraded to GaN now. And unlike the Growler, the Rafale is significantly more refined. Rafale basically does what the Growler does, but it does so without informing the enemy that their systems are being jammed.

The Growler screams while the Rafale only whispers. It's obvious the latter is better.

As for MKI, when I said it may not be as capable as the Growler, there are two reasons for that. One, the MKI is yet to be integrated with its own complete suite, right now it only carries a passive Indian suite with an active pod for jamming. And it is not known how the Russian SAP-14 and 518 behaves with the MKI's Indian/Israeli communication system. Basically, we need sensor fusion on our jet which will be coming with the MLU program.

Based on what technical specs?
The growler has some of the most advanced EW systems on board along with highly sophisticated encryption and communication capabilities. You are trying to convince people that somehow by the usage of a GaN the RBE2-AA is better than a APG-79V4 on the growler?
Please come up with more solid points that just that. If India is buying it, does not mean it is the best at every aspect of warfare. The IAF chose the Rafale based on a widespread performance, but best at EW it is not.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Based on what technical specs?
The growler has some of the most advanced EW systems on board along with highly sophisticated encryption and communication capabilities. You are trying to convince people that somehow by the usage of a GaN the RBE2-AA is better than a APG-79V4 on the growler?
Please come up with more solid points that just that. If India is buying it, does not mean it is the best at every aspect of warfare. The IAF chose the Rafale based on a widespread performance, but best at EW it is not.

Most of Growler performances come from ALQ-99 jamming pods. Carbone is better and could be compared to the next generation jammer (NGJ) that US is currently developping. And the french didn't induct Carbone because it is not needed due to SPECTRA. The approach is different, Spectra protect only one plane but we believe that it is smarter.

https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/#post-8172035

 

[randomradio]

Based on what technical specs?
The growler has some of the most advanced EW systems on board along with highly sophisticated encryption and communication capabilities. You are trying to convince people that somehow by the usage of a GaN the RBE2-AA is better than a APG-79V4 on the growler? Please come up with more solid points that just that.

All the answers are right here. In the very first page.

https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/

Gen Hostage also says the Growler is no longer necessary.
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen-mike-hostage-on-the-f-35-no-growlers-needed-when-war-starts/

Growlers are not front-line aircraft for the first week of war, Hostage argues.

http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/a-gods-eye-view-of-the-battlefield-gen-hostage-on-the-f-35/

While Growlers, Boeing’s EA-18G, have extremely powerful, broadband jamming capabilities, the F-35’s combination of stealth and highly specific electronic beams is a better combination, Hostage tells me during the interview.

“If you can get in close, you don’t need Growler-type power. If you’re stealthy enough that they can’t do anything about it and you can get in close, it doesn’t take a huge amount of power to have the effect you need to have,” he says.

One of the keys to spoofing is, I’ve heard from several operators, being careful to avoid overwhelming the enemy with high-power jamming. That’s another problem with the Growler approach.

“The high power-jamming is ‘I’ll just overwhelm them with energy since I can’t get in there and do magic things with what they’re sending to me,'” Hostage says.

The Spectra does the 'magic things' unlike Growler. The greater advantage with Spectra is, unlike F-35 which can only attack in the X band in the forward sector, the Rafale can attack in all relevant radio spectrum bands in 360 deg. So even Hostage, while bring constrained by the F-35's yet-to-be complete capabilities, says it's better than Growler, forget talking about the Rafale.

Personally, I think the only drawback the Rafale has is the lack of an internal bay. But the Rafale deals with that problem with active cancellation anyway.

If you want actual hard data in open source, then you won't get anything more than what @Picdelamirand-oil has offered.

If India is buying it, does not mean it is the best at every aspect of warfare. The IAF chose the Rafale based on a widespread performance, but best at EW it is not.

The IAF MMRCA was chosen based on specific capability that existed only in the 2000-2015 years, where just getting an AESA radar was a big deal. However, we are talking about technologies today that are in the realm of 5th and 6th gen, not the 4th or 4.5th gen era of the MMRCA deal.

Hint: Rafale's frontal RCS is that of a sparrow.

IAF got really lucky when the Rafale won the tender, it could have easily gone the other way. That's why Parrikar has now introduced the L-1 and T-1 brackets for global bids in future tenders. And T-1 will take higher priority than L-1. L-1 is costs, T-1 is technology.

And no, this is not my personal view or that I'm saying it just because we are buying Rafale. Even if we were not buying the Rafale, my view would not have changed. I thought like you did two years ago until Picdel was able to explain what the Rafale can really do. The F-35 and Rafale are the future of electronic warfare for now.

Even the creator of LSA said what you did, now he is saying the exact opposite stuff, even wants the Spectra on his jet. Says the Rafale is currently the best the West has to offer India.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

GaN is not yet in use for RBE2 AA it will be deployed for SPECTRA with F3-R.

 

[SQ8]

Most of Growler performances come from ALQ-99 jamming pods. Carbone is better and could be compared to the next generation jammer (NGJ) that US is currently developping. And the french didn't induct Carbone because it is not needed due to SPECTRA. The approach is different, Spectra protect only one plane but we believe that it is smarter.

https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/#post-8172035

But then the NGJ is also going on the growler which makes it a moot point.

 

[C130]

Most of Growler performances come from ALQ-99 jamming pods. Carbone is better and could be compared to the next generation jammer (NGJ) that US is currently developping. And the french didn't induct Carbone because it is not needed due to SPECTRA. The approach is different, Spectra protect only one plane but we believe that it is smarter.

https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/#post-8172035

you wouldn't really even need an area wide jammer like the ALQ-99 or NGJ.

send in 4 Rafales armed with AASM or Spear 3 they'll pick up the radiation coming off the SAM, Spectra jams it so they can't lock onto the Rafale, and the Rafale slews it's RBE2 AA towards the radiation does a SAR scan and then fires AASM or Sprear 3 at them, boom dead SAM sites

this is a lot cheaper than what the U.S would do. you would need multiple EA-18G muiltple other aircraft to fire MALD-Js,JSOWs, and AGM-88

 

[randomradio]

But then the NGJ is also going on the growler which makes it a moot point.

The US needs the NGJ because the F-35/F-22 can only jam in the X band. Spectra can go up from 0.5GHz to 40GHz.

Even then the NGJ is not as good as Spectra for two reasons, it is not a sensor fused device and cannot perform active cancellation. So there is no direct comparison between the two.

In case high power jamming is really necessary, which I doubt will ever be, the French are working on a new radar system which will allow it to carry conformal arrays all over the fuselage. With a transition to GaN, the Rafale will be able to duplicate the NGJ as well, without any aerodynamic penalty + sensor fusion. That's set for 2021, the same date as the NGJ's introduction.

The only advantage for the NGJ is it will power the pod on its own, but the Rafale will take care of that with engine upgrades. Like the recently announced offer to upgrade the Kaveri engine.

X posting Picdel's post

Kaveri engine is a variable cycle engine, it could be used for Rafale MLU too.

A variable cycle engine does a pretty good job of generating more power when necessary.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

First flight of the first Rafale fighter, designed for Qatar

POSTED BY: BOB SANDERS JULY 7, 2016

On June 28, 2016, from the airport of the company Dassault Aviation had been performed the first flight of the built for Qatar Air Force fighter Dassault Rafale – the two-seater Rafale DQ (serial number DQ01). The plane was flown to flight-test center of the French Air Force airbase in Istres, where they will continue the testing program. For now, the fighter is without the identification signs of Air Force Qatar.

The contract amounting to 6.3 billion euros was signed on May 4, 2015, and foresees the delivery of 24 fighter aircraft Dassault Rafale (18 single-seat Rafale EQ and six two-seater Rafale DQ) to Qatar, as well as missiles air-to-air MICA IR, MICA EM, and Meteor. It also envisages the supply of cruise missiles SCALP-EG and guided bombs, GBU, and AASM. Qatar Air Force should receive the first fighter Rafale in mid-2018 as the pace of deliveries will be one plane per month.

Rafale fighter jets for Qatar significantly differ from those of the Air Force of France and Egypt, therefore, they will undergo extensive and continuous testing program. A number of systems are being tested, like the helmet-mounted target designation system, which is similar to that used in Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

http://www.wingsjournal.com/first-flight-first-rafale-fighter-designed-qatar

 

[Stephen Cohen]

First flight of the first Rafale fighter, designed for Qatar

POSTED BY: BOB SANDERS JULY 7, 2016

On June 28, 2016, from the airport of the company Dassault Aviation had been performed the first flight of the built for Qatar Air Force fighter Dassault Rafale – the two-seater Rafale DQ (serial number DQ01). The plane was flown to flight-test center of the French Air Force airbase in Istres, where they will continue the testing program. For now, the fighter is without the identification signs of Air Force Qatar.

The contract amounting to 6.3 billion euros was signed on May 4, 2015, and foresees the delivery of 24 fighter aircraft Dassault Rafale (18 single-seat Rafale EQ and six two-seater Rafale DQ) to Qatar, as well as missiles air-to-air MICA IR, MICA EM, and Meteor. It also envisages the supply of cruise missiles SCALP-EG and guided bombs, GBU, and AASM. Qatar Air Force should receive the first fighter Rafale in mid-2018 as the pace of deliveries will be one plane per month.

Rafale fighter jets for Qatar significantly differ from those of the Air Force of France and Egypt, therefore, they will undergo extensive and continuous testing program. A number of systems are being tested, like the helmet-mounted target designation system, which is similar to that used in Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

http://www.wingsjournal.com/first-flight-first-rafale-fighter-designed-qatar

Any News about Indian Rafale deal

 

[Abingdonboy]

A number of systems are being tested, like the helmet-mounted target designation system, which is similar to that used in Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

TopSight?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

A number of systems are being tested, like the helmet-mounted target designation system, which is similar to that used in Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

Does this confirm that Indian customised F3R systems are getting tested via Qatar first Rafale flight F3R version?

TopSight?

i think much beyond topsight.. seems our F3R customization is in a way getting validated via this test flight..

look at the timeline.. they start tests now and deliver in 2018 or may be in late 2017..

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Even the creator of LSA said what you did, now he is saying the exact opposite stuff, even wants the Spectra on his jet. Says the Rafale is currently the best the West has to offer India.

What is LSA

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Any News about Indian Rafale deal

We have to wait for DM MP ... file is pending with him for some good time.. May be closer to August-September, we may see signing...

Price and package is already locked..
Safran offer is already a step in positive direction.. I guess another round of secret meeting is required for the engine part..

 

[Abingdonboy]

i think much beyond topsight.. seems our F3R customization is in a way getting validated via this test flight..

look at the timeline.. they start tests now and deliver in 2018 or may be in late 2017..

I am assuming though that it would be the TopSight HMD for the IAF's Rafales in line with the MiG-29K, MiG-29UPG and Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s.