Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[GURU DUTT]

LOLZ, why would you need X band Aesa on the pod, when Pulse Doppler could be used. AESA is only needed for the interleaved operation for the Airborne and Ground target detection, and targetting. Theoratically it is possible to have the Radar in the form of the Pod, but since GaN based Aesa which could be fabricated on any surface, and of any shape, which @randomradio was talking should be the future and could be used on the wing forward edge.

http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/6/42026.pdf

sirji i still dont get isnt GaN based AESA suprior to a regular pulse doppler type MMR radar ?

then why should we waste time and money to get a complete MLU on MKI why cant we just add a EL2052 AESA based pod on MKI and have two instead of one radars on MKI and is there a possibilty of adding simmilar AESA based POD on lines of something like SPECTRA for fighters like MKI and M2K as Mig29 upgrade has already one on board and make something like growler out of MKI ?

 

[zebra7]

sirji i still dont get isnt GaN based AESA suprior to a regular pulse doppler type MMR radar ?

then why should we waste time and money to get a complete MLU on MKI why cant we just add a EL2052 AESA based pod on MKI and have two instead of one radars on MKI and is there a possibilty of adding simmilar AESA based POD on lines of something like SPECTRA for fighters like MKI and M2K as Mig29 upgrade has already one on board and make something like growler out of MKI ?

Guru Bhai read this for some knowledge of GaN, GaS, PESA first

http://www.armadainternational.com/assets/images/pdf/3._AESA_Radar_Technology_.pdf

Now what you don't understand the answer lies in the L Band Radar Antenna of the PAK FA N036L-1-01, which is on the wing and not on inside its Nose.

 

[randomradio]

1. 120 LCA will be 6 squadrons. Each LCA squadron will have 20 aircraft including 4 spares. However DMs statement of 8 squadrons in 8 years is contradicting.

I suppose he may be talking about 2 extra squadrons as options.

@randomradio you keep on repeating same thing again and again, unless you have lot of free time, and leave the main question ?

1. Who told you that there is anything called LSA, and tell me which official, minister ever mentioned the word LSA.

Why should anybody mention this?

2. Who told you there are 4 aircraft for the replacement of the MIg-21 and Mig 27, and from you are going to bring the money to buy so called F-16, and Gripen.

There are that many single engine aircraft in contention.

And when we are talking about Combat Hawk, its different from the Hawk which is used as the Advance Jet Trainer by IAF. Combat Hawk would have IRST and Laser range finder on its nose, and if there is a demand for Radar, then the Radar in the Pod form EL/L-20600 is available.

Combat Hawk isn't a fighter jet, it's a training aid. LCA Mk1 itself is far superior to the Combat Hawk. HAL wants the army to buy the Combat Hawk. They are building it as a competitor to Textron's Scorpion and has huge export potential.

so you mean we can have a AESA radar in a pod well thats a new thing so means theorcally we can we can have an X band AESA is nose cone and a smaller lighter L band AESA on a pod of the same Aircraft which i guess will make a plane like say MKI equivellent to a AWACS and Wia Data link command a small squad of LCA type fighters where we cant spare a AWACS right or existing MKIs can have a simillar EL2052 pod underbelly ... god that will so much time and money on having a full fleged super sukhoi MLU

A radar in a pod it pointless, it will be too small. You can only put specialized radars in pods and we already have something like that called the EL/M 2060P.

LOLZ, why would you need X band Aesa on the pod, when Pulse Doppler could be used.

Can you tell me the difference between AESA and pulse doppler?

but since GaN based Aesa which could be fabricated on any surface, and of any shape, which @randomradio was talking should be the future and could be used on the wing forward edge.

It depends on what you mean by future? The Russians are already doing that with GaAs also.

sirji i still dont get isnt GaN based AESA suprior to a regular pulse doppler type MMR radar ?

Dude, he doesn't know anything about radars. Even AESA is a pulse doppler radar.

then why should we waste time and money to get a complete MLU on MKI why cant we just add a EL2052 AESA based pod on MKI and have two instead of one radars on MKI and is there a possibilty of adding simmilar AESA based POD on lines of something like SPECTRA for fighters like MKI and M2K as Mig29 upgrade has already one on board and make something like growler out of MKI ?

MKI will get a NIIP radar. The Russians have better tech.

Pods are not good for radars because they are too small.

MKI won't get something like Spectra, but close, like D-29 on the Mig-29. MKI as a Growler already exists. We use the SAP-518 and SAP-14. However, I don't know if it is as capable. Anyway a Growler equivalent aircraft is irrelevant once we get the Rafale. With the right investment, a Rafale or two can carry a large group of MKIs without being detected.

 

[zebra7]

Why should anybody mention this?

Then why are you keep on repeating LSA. Are you one who is responsible for formulating the Indian policy or the directive to the defence development. Question is simple, I am not asking what is LSA, but how the idea of LSA was created and by whom.

There are that many single engine aircraft in contention.

Sir, jee you yourself is quoting the number of Migs to be replaced, and now if India wants to replace them with costly imported/ license produced planes like F-16 which would cost 85 Million flyaway and 80 Million Gripen flyaway, now add the infra, airbase upgrades, spares, training of maintainance crew and pilot cost also will shoot the sky. Combat Hawk is the best solution for that.

Combat Hawk isn't a fighter jet, it's a training aid. LCA Mk1 itself is far superior to the Combat Hawk. HAL wants the army to buy the Combat Hawk. They are building it as a competitor to Textron's Scorpion and has huge export potential.

Hawk is an advance jet, and Combat Hawk is the armed version of the Hawk trainer, similarly Jaguar was developed as the LIFT, and similarly GNAT was also the trainer.

A radar in a pod it pointless, it will be too small. You can only put specialized radars in pods and we already have something like that called the EL/M 2060P.

EL/M2060P is too heavy and is for the bigger aircraft such as MKI, I am stating ELM-20600 Pod for SAR mapping and Recce for the ground target.

Can you tell me the difference between AESA and pulse doppler?

LOL

It depends on what you mean by future? The Russians are already doing that with GaAs also.

That was for the explaination of @gurudutt, Care to read the further conversation.

 

[randomradio]

Then why are you keep on repeating LSA. Are you one who is responsible for formulating the Indian policy or the directive to the defence development. Question is simple, I am not asking what is LSA, but how the idea of LSA was created and by whom.

There are people around.

Sir, jee you yourself is quoting the number of Migs to be replaced, and now if India wants to replace them with costly imported/ license produced planes like F-16 which would cost 85 Million flyaway and 80 Million Gripen flyaway, now add the infra, airbase upgrades, spares, training of maintainance crew and pilot cost also will shoot the sky. Combat Hawk is the best solution for that.

So an advanced trainer modified to carry weapons will replace fighter jets?

Do you want to discuss this seriously?

EL/M2060P is too heavy and is for the bigger aircraft such as MKI, I am stating ELM-20600 Pod for SAR mapping and Recce for the ground target.

No, it's not heavy. This is a F-16.

LOL

So you don't know the difference between AESA and PD. As expected.

 

[Taygibay]

No body needs the detection range of 200 KM in the fighter planes like LCA.

Actually, it's easy to compute what radar range an aircraft needs!
It's : pilot/system reaction time + range of furthest reaching armament.

If your longer range weapon has a 100km NEZ, you need detection/firing
at say 120km if quick to engage, 150 if slow.

Using max values ( max. combined converging speeds, etc ) for constraints
and minimal guaranteed performances will find the usable detection range.

No one needs a 1,000 km radar performance in air to air today because no
missile can get to an enemy a thousand kliks away. What are the pilots to do
for 30+ minutes, have tea or take a nap? Go to facebook?

Good day all, Tay.

 

[C130]

I think I have come around that Rafale is the right choice for IAF and not the F-16,F/A 18.

the only other aircraft that makes sense is F-15SA/SE, but it wasn't even in MMRCA.

considering Rafale capabilities it will be a beast in the deep strike mission into the enemy territory

along with 6 AASM that are like smaller,cheaper AGM-130 this is potent combo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASM

 

[Agent_47]

126 Rafale is confirmed.
120 LCA is confirmed. They are saying that's 8 squadrons. So I need to get that checked. There is no mention of 140 more.

There will be a second order. Last DM and Paraker has already said that multiple times.

They will just put the aircraft in storage like other air forces do.

Are you stupid are acting like one to prove your point ?!
We are spending $3+ billlion just to upgrade Mirage,jauger and Mig 29 to world class standard. These programs are 3-4 years away from completion. And you want to put all of them in storage ?

We had 131 Jaguars in the 90s. Then we manufactured 37 more after the 2000s. But I made a mistake with the Mig-27, it is 165.

The actual numbers are pointless, the point was IAF had 1000+ fighters, you haven't counted older aircraft like the Gnats and Hunters that were still in service apart from the M-2000, Mig-29 and Mig-25.

IAF had a 3:1 numbers superiority over the PAF and we may eventually plan to have those numbers again, especially if we end up with that many production lines.

Let me repeat, Unlike past today fighters are multirole. A single Rafale can do the job of mig-21,Mirage 2000,Mig 27 and Jaguars. And these are very expensive to procure and maintain.

IAF is looking for a balanced fleet so that it can defend a two front war not some 'feel good' superiority. Importing too many platforms will only make a maintenance nightmare.

the only other aircraft that makes sense is F-15SA/SE, but it wasn't even in MMRCA.

Yes, Rafale is a perfect choice.
For F-15SA/SE we have Su-30 MKI / Super MKI, same class and role.

 

[randomradio]

There will be a second order. Last DM and Paraker has already said that multiple times.

That is subject to HAL delivering. But there is no mention of a second production line with a private company.

Are you stupid are acting like one to prove your point ?!
We are spending $3+ billlion just to upgrade Mirage,jauger and Mig 29 to world class standard. These programs are 3-4 years away from completion. And you want to put all of them in storage ?

Mig-29 is almost already complete. They have their lives extended by 1000 hours each. That's 10 years of service operation, so if the IAF has aircraft, they would start replacing those by 2027.

M-2000 has more life, extension has given it 5500 hours, they can easily function for another 30 years, that's 2040-2050. Why do you think they plan to retire in 2030? So who's the stupid one now?

It's very common for air forces to put their jets in storage, even operational ones. The USMC recently reactivated 30 Hornets which were in storage. The USAF has thousands of jets in storage, and they haven't even completely half their life.

Let me repeat, Unlike past today fighters are multirole. A single Rafale can do the job of mig-21,Mirage 2000,Mig 27 and Jaguars. And these are very expensive to procure and maintain.

So what? Who said war is cheap?

Importing too many platforms will only make a maintenance nightmare.

What horseshit. IAF has had more types in the past than it does today, and we were much poorer then.

 

[Agent_47]

That is subject to HAL delivering. But there is no mention of a second production line with a private company.

Did i mention private production line ? HAL chairman said production line can be increased to 25-26 per year.

Mig-29 is almost already complete. They have their lives extended by 1000 hours each. That's 10 years of service operation, so if the IAF has aircraft, they would start replacing those by 2027.

First Indian modernized Mig 29 flew last year. 50+ left, does that look completed to you ?

According to Sergey Korotkov, the first MiG-29UPG fighter jet modernized by Indian specialists took off into the sky in February of this year. He also said that there are four jets in the first batch of MiG-29 fighters upgraded in India. It may be recalled that the contract to upgrade 62 MiG-29 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force was signed in March 2008. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-mig_19upg-for-india-begins-flight-tests.html

Please show me the reference for "Replacement from 2027" part.

M-2000 has more life, extension has given it 5500 hours, they can easily function for another 30 years, that's 2040-2050. Why do you think they plan to retire in 2030? So who's the stupid one now?

Read my statement again. IAF chief said they will start replacing M2000,M29,jauger from 2030. Its a process, like we are doing here with Mig 21 and Mig 27. Was that so hard ?

It's very common for air forces to put their jets in storage, even operational ones. The USMC recently reactivated 30 Hornets which were in storage. The USAF has thousands of jets in storage, and they haven't even completely half their life.

So you want to induct expensive jets and put perfectly capable aircrafts in storage for which we spend billions to keep it flying ?

So what? Who said war is cheap?

In your last post you said we have budget problems for procurement.

Still no arguments for multirole part uh ?

What horseshit. IAF has had more types in the past than it does today, and we were much poorer then.

Why do you think US choose to make three F35 versions for different services instead of three separate aircrafts ? (That too single engine)
Why do you think French going for multi role Rafale only airforce ? (M2000 only for NS)
Why do you think China does not induct JF-17 for the sake of filling numbers?
Why do you think Pakistan is so reluctant to induct double engine aircrafts and obsessed with just 1-2 single engine platforms?

We were on clear path of commonality:
Light => LCA (12-14 sq)
Medium => Rafale, AMCA (7 sq, 10-12 sq)
Heavy => MKI,FGFA (9-12 sq)

Don't know about single-double import BS.
Rest my case.

 

[randomradio]

Did i mention private production line ? HAL chairman said production line can be increased to 25-26 per year.

Then production will go into the 2030s.

First Indian modernized Mig 29 flew last year. 50+ left, does that look completed to you ?

The date I provided covers the 10 years.

Please show me the reference for "Replacement from 2027" part.

Do the math.

Read my statement again. IAF chief said they will start replacing M2000,M29,jauger from 2030. Its a process, like we are doing here with Mig 21 and Mig 27. Was that so hard ?

Such dates are tentative. When new contracts are signed, the dates change.

So you want to induct expensive jets and put perfectly capable aircrafts in storage for which we spend billions to keep it flying ?

Yes.

In your last post you said we have budget problems for procurement.

Can you point that out? I've always said there is no long term budget issues.

Still no arguments for multirole part uh ?

Because it is unnecessary.

Why do you think US choose to make three F35 versions for different services instead of three separate aircrafts ? (That too single engine)
Why do you think French going for multi role Rafale only airforce ? (M2000 only for NS)
Why do you think China does not induct JF-17 for the sake of filling numbers?
Why do you think Pakistan is so reluctant to induct double engine aircrafts and obsessed with just 1-2 single engine platforms?

You've brought in irrelevant stuff.

Don't know about single-double import BS.
Rest my case.

I'd choose to believe Parrikar and Raha over you. I'm done.

 

[W@rwolf]

France offers EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project

France has offered to invest EUR 1 billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, proposing a joint development plan that could see the stalled 'Kaveri' gas turbine powering indigenousTejas fighters by 2020.

The proposal is to use offset credits that would come from the planned Rafale fighter jet deal to revive the indigenous jet engine project, people involved in talks between the Indian defence ministry, the Defence Research & Development Organisation andFrench companies told ET.

Foreign arms companies that sell equipment to India are mandated to invest a portion of the contract cost in the country's defence and aerospace industry. In the case of the Rafale deal, which India and France are negotiating, the offset obligation is 50% of the cost, which would translate to over EUR 3 billion.

Sources said that since January, several rounds of discussions have taken place between Indian authorities and French company Safran, which developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters.

French experts who assessed the Kaveri engine — which was more or less abandoned for aviation use in 2014 due to shortcomings on power —indicated that 25-30% more work would be needed to make it flight-worthy.

According to the deal being offered, India would not need to spend any more developmental money on the project and Safran would take on the investment, committing to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months. The proposal is to integrate the upgraded Kaveri with the Mk 1 A version of the Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.

The air force is committed to buying at least 80 of the LCA Mk 1 A fighters that will meet higher technical requirements than the version inducted this year. It is currently powered by GE 404 engines.


"The proposal is to have the Kaveri ready for the next version of the LCA that would then boast of an indigenous engine as well. The French are confident that this can be done and are willing to put in money into the project," a person involved in the discussion said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...t-jet-engine-project/articleshow/53036894.cms

 

[PARIKRAMA]

thread link
https://defence.pk/threads/france-o...vive-indias-combat-jet-engine-project.437753/

Thats the ET article link

 

[randomradio]

It appears that the Rafale is competing for the twin engine MII with other jets. It is subject to the completion of the first contract for 36. Parrikar said it. So Rafale is the unofficial choice for MII, it's not official yet. Trappier is making a case for Rafale MII. Which means there is a small possibility Rafales may not be made in India, which s**ks. However, it is most likely a negotiation tactic to get the cheapest deal by having it compete with the Americans and the other Europeans.

A second single engine jet for MII has not been ruled out. Parrikar has ruled out the F-16 based on his Parliament speech though. So I'm thinking Gripen or LSA here. My money and hope are on the LSA.

Even PAK FA MII is possible, note that this is not the FGFA, it's for the Russian version. So we may start manufacturing next gen jets even earlier than expected. Of course, this won't be in direct competition with the above deals. And it's better than buying 2 or 3 squadrons as flyaway since the production line will cater for any delays with the FGFA and the transition will be far smoother once the FGFA is ready. It will help the Super Sukhoi program also.

 

[#hydra#]

I suppose he may be talking about 2 extra squadrons as options.



Why should anybody mention this?



There are that many single engine aircraft in contention.



Combat Hawk isn't a fighter jet, it's a training aid. LCA Mk1 itself is far superior to the Combat Hawk. HAL wants the army to buy the Combat Hawk. They are building it as a competitor to Textron's Scorpion and has huge export potential.



A radar in a pod it pointless, it will be too small. You can only put specialized radars in pods and we already have something like that called the EL/M 2060P.



Can you tell me the difference between AESA and pulse doppler?



It depends on what you mean by future? The Russians are already doing that with GaAs also.



Dude, he doesn't know anything about radars. Even AESA is a pulse doppler radar.



MKI will get a NIIP radar. The Russians have better tech.

Pods are not good for radars because they are too small.

MKI won't get something like Spectra, but close, like D-29 on the Mig-29. MKI as a Growler already exists. We use the SAP-518 and SAP-14. However, I don't know if it is as capable. Anyway a Growler equivalent aircraft is irrelevant once we get the Rafale. With the right investment, a Rafale or two can carry a large group of MKIs without being detected.

Growler is in a different league man, it's an electronic attack aircraft capable of locating and blinding even high powered modern ground based radars at long ranges. Rafale can't match growler in EW segment. If my memory is correct, growle is the only known f22 killer out there in bvr engagement exercise.