Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[zebra7]

sirji can you tell me more on the AESA subject like what is the price diffrence between say EL-2052 and RB2AA or the CAPTOR AESA and there performance ... thanks in advance

I can't give the Price comparison, and neither should anyone be fooled with the internet pic, because it depends on the OEM how much he quote to the customer.

Regarding performance Israeli EL/M-2052 is a decent radar, and should not be compared with the french or the CAPTOR because they are high end AESA radars and CAPTOR would be on the top but would be ready post 2020.

But as far as the experience of the Israeli is concerned, they have vast live experience of the actual combat and the threats they are living. The algorithm to distinguish the target from the clutter is the key of the capability of the Radar. Israel have proposed to work with the Indian firm like DARE for the upgraded version of EL/M-2052. DARE is also working on the Uttam AESA Radar, if I am not wrong, an active help from the Israel is there on its development. When looking at the ground target recognition and SAR map the Ground terrain, even the Russians are lagging with respect to U.S or European, so you can judge the capability of the Chinese, therefore PAF are looking for the european or western replacement of various equipment on the Sino-Pak bird.

In my view even 2052 was not needed, and even 2032 was enough, but its good, when we have the technology in hand.

Right now, only thing which is lagging in the LCA Tejas MK-1 is the IRST and I was hoping skyward IRST but, after Finemecca hoshbag, we have to look for some other source.

There are a total of 4 aircraft choices for replacing the Mig-21, two will be chosen. One's already been made and another is pending.

Care to explain, who told you this and don't answer with the twisted words of the DM Parikaar, which I have already answered in detail in LCA tejas sticky thread.

Second, give me the reason, why would the replacement of the MIG-21 and 27 cannot be fullfilled by the LCA tejas and Combat Hawk, for the Interceptor, and the CAS role.

That's subject to the completion of the Rafale deal. ADA can't wait that long.

LCA itself is turning out to be much better than hoped. We will see a major reduction in weight.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016.../UQMw+(LiveFist+-+The+Best+of+Indian+Defence)

Agreed we have a working AESA radar EL/M-2052, and already selected Derby-ER and Python-5, whose integration won't take much time.

However I am suspectiable of the wt. reduction, because FOC has to be cleared first, and more avionics means more weight.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I can't give the Price comparison, and neither should anyone be fooled with the internet pic, because it depends on the OEM how much he quote to the customer.

Regarding performance Israeli EL/M-2052 is a decent radar, and should not be compared with the french or the CAPTOR because they are high end AESA radars and CAPTOR would be on the top but would be ready post 2020.

But as far as the experience of the Israeli is concerned, they have vast live experience of the actual combat and the threats they are living. The algorithm to distinguish the target from the clutter is the key of the capability of the Radar. Israel have proposed to work with the Indian firm like DARE for the upgraded version of EL/M-2052. DARE is also working on the Uttam AESA Radar, if I am not wrong, an active help from the Israel is there on its development. When looking at the ground target recognition and SAR map the Ground terrain, even the Russians are lagging with respect to U.S or European, so you can judge the capability of the Chinese, therefore they are looking for the european or western replacement of various equipment on the Sino-Pak bird.

In my view even 2052 was needed, and even 2032 was enough, but its good, when we have the technology in hand.

Right now, only thing which is lagging in the LCA Tejas MK-1 is the IRST and I was hoping skyward IRST but, after Finemecca hoshbag, we have to look for some other source.



Care to explain, who told you this and don't answer with the twisted words of the DM Parikaar, which I have already answered in detail in LCA tejas sticky thread.

Second, give me the reason, why would the replacement of the MIG-21 and 27 cannot be fullfilled by the LCA tejas and Combat Hawk, for the Interceptor, and the CAS role.



Agreed we have a working AESA radar EL/M-2052, and already selected Derby-ER and Python-5, whose integration won't take much time.

However I am suspectiable of the wt. reduction, because FOC has to be cleared first, and more avionics means more weight.

that was a great post but whats the real diffrence in capabilities of GaA based AESA radar and GaN based AESa radar apart from GaN being more compact

secondly why cant we have something like this Eagel eye IRST pod fitted with a LITENING G4 instead of sniper LDP on LCA MK1A like F-15E can it perform well in owr kind of enviorment and will USA sell this to us ?

 

[Taygibay]

"Because here's the fun part, when an engineer or doctor comes out of school
he or she is still years from being top notch on the terrain. In high tech industries,
job providers like adaptable youngsters yet unspecialized that grow on the job.

And not being racist, I refuse to admit to a reason why Indians would not do as
well as any other!"

Yeah, yeah, now your defence will be you didn't insult anybody.

No, actually my defense is that you cannot read!

Yes, you are being silly. ... You have done this many times in the past and I have called you out for it, like I'm gonna do so again.

Anytime you're available to meet in person, I'll be available to teach you to dance!

Tay.

 

[zebra7]

that was a great post but whats the real diffrence in capabilities of GaA based AESA radar and GaN based AESa radar apart from GaN being more compact

Simple answer is the Cost.

GaN is currently cost prohibitive (cost and yield) for affordability especially when the GaA based radars are meeting or exceeding sensor performance requirements. Even till date, there are only few GaN based Aesa Radar, but with the technology advancement, the GaN module's cost will come down, then we can see the shift. That's one face of the answer but actually, what is important is the computing power and the algorithm which is behind aka Radar computer or backend.

Your answer for the CAPTOR and the RBE Radar and the EL/M-2052 is the LPI radar, in layman terms the Low probability to shows its presence to the enemy. Take an example of the torch, if you lit the light to detect the enemy, the enemy could see you with the passive sensors, but LPI radars masks its presence, even emitting. Hope you get this.

secondly why cant we have something like this Eagel eye IRST pod fitted with a LITENING G4 instead of sniper LDP on LCA MK1A like F-15E can it perform well in owr kind of enviorment and will USA sell this to us ?

Because no effort in the IRST and the Optronic sensors are there in the country, and only looking to outsource it from the third party.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Simple answer is the Cost.

GaN is currently cost prohibitive (cost and yield) for affordability especially when the GaA based radars are meeting or exceeding sensor performance requirements. Even till date, there are only few GaN based Aesa Radar, but with the technology advancement, the GaN module's cost will come down, then we can see the shift. That's one face of the answer but actually, what is important is the computing power and the algorithm which is behind aka Radar computer or backend.

Your answer for the CAPTOR and the RBE Radar and the EL/M-2052 is the LPI radar, in layman terms the Low probability to shows its presence to the enemy. Take an example of the torch, if you lit the light to detect the enemy, the enemy could see you with the passive sensors, but LPI radars masks its presence, even emitting. Hope you get this.





Because no effort in the IRST and the Optronic sensors are there in the country, and only looking to outsource it from the third party.

i get it means its (GaA or GaN) just and antenna while the real work is done by the backend computers i have read some where that its (backend) main strength lies in how much ammount of peak power it can handle for example MKis radars peak power is 5Kw while new age conductors on latest GaN based AESA radars can handle upto 50-75 some even 100 Kw im not a computer guy please elaborate on it and how far indian backend on say LCA is capable of .. thanks in advance

as for eagel eye type of pod/pod extension can we buy it from USA and will USA sell it to us so we could either put Litening or a jammer pod on it for LCA Mk1A or other platforms of IAF ?

 

[BON PLAN]

yes I know that , that's why I am saying each will be about $120 million compared to Rafales $250 million each

36 ASH=$4.3 billion
36 Rafale=$9 billion

and Dassualt actually wanted $12 billion at first too, so about $325 each, this is including the plane,shelters,spares,training, weapons etc etc

Dry price of Rafale is +/- 70 to 80 millions euros. Add the same to SH18 and Rafale to have the complete price. Difference is very small.

 

[C130]

Dry price of Rafale is +/- 70 to 80 millions euros. Add the same to SH18 and Rafale to have the complete price. Difference is very small.

I'll wait til the deal is done and see what the costs for everything is

 

[randomradio]

Care to explain, who told you this and don't answer with the twisted words of the DM Parikaar, which I have already answered in detail in LCA tejas sticky thread.

Vstol did, a few hours ago. I've already answered that in the previous page.

The 4 choices were LCA, Gripen, F-16 and LSA. LCA was chosen. Now the choice is between LSA, F-16 and Gripen.

Second, give me the reason, why would the replacement of the MIG-21 and 27 cannot be fullfilled by the LCA tejas and Combat Hawk, for the Interceptor, and the CAS role.

Combat Hawk isn't being bought for 'combat'. It will be bought to train cadets.

We have to replace 250 Mig-21s and 120 Mig-27s. 40 MKI have replaced a bunch of them already. So there are still over 300 aircraft that need to be replaced with a single engine fighter.

I don't think the F-16 will give any competition. The choice may end up between LSA and Gripen.

This is apart from the twin engine fighter that will complement the Rafale. It could be the SH or a Russian jet. This is separate from the single engine competition.

There was nothing cryptic in what Parrikar said. Parrikar has been quoted for saying something like Rafales are coming, another twin engine fighter will be coming along with another single engine fighter, apart from the LCA.

So yeah, right now Parrikar will select a twin engine fighter and a single engine fighter. Subject to certain conditions, one or both may be chosen, one of those conditions being GDP growth and another being indigenization, because then we will have to pay INR to the companies and we have a lot of that. I'll repeat again, this is separate from Rafale and LCA. And no, like some people like to keep repeating, it won't matter if another LCA line is built, we are talking about different fighters.

The more fighter lines are built, the faster the older jets will be replaced, and that also includes the Mig-29 and the remaining Jaguars. Even with just 39.5 squadrons sanctioned, IAF has operated 1000+ fighters in the past, particularly in the 90s when we had over 500 Mig-21, 250 Mig-27, 150 Jaguars, 150 Mig-23 etc. So the numbers in each squadron are simply a notional indicator of what a squadron is. The reality is dependent on funding for new and phasing out of the old. IAF saves more money by investing in new jets than keep old jets alive.

Aerospace is extremely important if anybody's bothered to actually see what's happening in terms of economics, national security and others aspects, especially what Doval has been saying over the last one year. There are some major plans afoot.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Aerospace is extremely important if anybody's bothered to actually see what's happening in terms of economics, national security and others aspects, especially what Doval has been saying over the last one year. There are some major plans afoot.

The TIME has come to start Implementing our plans

 

[BON PLAN]

I'll wait til the deal is done and see what the costs for everything is

But in this case you will only have Rafale complete price. Not the same for SH18 because it will not be purchased

 

[C130]

But in this case you will only have Rafale complete price. Not the same for SH18 because it will not be purchased

India is looking for another aircraft under the "Make in India" so it's no big loss

I actually like the Dassualt Rafale, but I don't like the price of the plane and the French weapons though

It's got to the point of no return. Even if India wanted to dump the Rafale for another bird it they won't. can't lose face now.

 

[randomradio]

that was a great post but whats the real diffrence in capabilities of GaA based AESA radar and GaN based AESa radar apart from GaN being more compact

GaN is a game changer. Its basic version will allow an increase in power density by 5 times, it can even go up to 10, 15 times or even 30 times. There is also a major upgrade to target resolution also.

GaN also has a much higher breakdown voltage, which means the antennas can perform at high voltages, so it consumes lesser power for every mm distance in transistors compared to GaAs. And every bit of efficiency is necessary because it reduces cooling requirements and that translates to much higher operation time before having to switch off the radar. GaN can work comfortably even at 300 degC while GaAs heats up at 160degC.

Another advantage of GaN is the size of the MMICs, there is a 10+ times size difference compared to GaAs MMIC. That means you can start placing the radar everywhere on an aircraft, not just the nose. GaN is a revolutionary technology, and if possible, we should be among the first to get it on our fighters.

The TIME has come to start Implementing our plans

Of course. Apart from all the MRCA programs, we are expanding our missile capability and developing new technologies. This year we will be testing two different scramjet engines.

I actually like the Dassualt Rafale, but I don't like the price of the plane and the French weapons though

That's a pretty unfair accusation. The Rafale is not more expensive than the SH. If we strip the Rafale down to the SH's avionics level, the price would be lower than the SH even though so few have been built.

Also, the price of French weapons are higher because of its smaller market. If enough people buy enough of those weapons it will be far more competitive. And French weapons have more life.

 

[BON PLAN]

India is looking for another aircraft under the "Make in India" so it's no big loss

I actually like the Dassualt Rafale, but I don't like the price of the plane and the French weapons though

It's got to the point of no return. Even if India wanted to dump the Rafale for another bird it they won't. can't lose face now.

I think the price of Rafale is over estimated in the media. It's part of the Rafale bashing.
But for the weapons, you're right. We haven't the same scale effect than some others...

 

[C130]

GaN is a game changer. Its basic version will allow an increase in power density by 5 times, it can even go up to 10, 15 times or even 30 times. There is also a major upgrade to target resolution also.

GaN also has a much higher breakdown voltage, which means the antennas can perform at high voltages, so it consumes lesser power for every mm distance in transistors compared to GaAs. And every bit of efficiency is necessary because it reduces cooling requirements and that translates to much higher operation time before having to switch off the radar. GaN can work comfortably even at 300 degC while GaAs heats up at 160degC.

Another advantage of GaN is the size of the MMICs, there is a 10+ times size difference compared to GaAs MMIC. That means you can start placing the radar everywhere on an aircraft, not just the nose. GaN is a revolutionary technology, and if possible, we should be among the first to get it on our fighters.



Of course. Apart from all the MRCA programs, we are expanding our missile capability and developing new technologies. This year we will be testing two different scramjet engines.



That's a pretty unfair accusation. The Rafale is not more expensive than the SH. If we strip the Rafale down to the SH's avionics level, the price would be lower than the SH even though so few have been built.

Also, the price of French weapons are higher because of its smaller market. If enough people buy enough of those weapons it will be far more competitive. And French weapons have more life.

SH avionics aren't much lower than Rafales

 

[randomradio]

SH avionics aren't much lower than Rafales

Significantly. Rafale's avionics are at the F-35's level. Pretty soon the Rafale will be getting stuff that will surpass the F-35 also.