Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[zebra7]

ASH is in no way 120million with spares , service training and weapons(life cycle cost) its somewhere between 150-180 millon dollars and i gues it dont have things like SPECTRA and internal IRST sensor and can carry load not more than 7.5 tonne externally and has a lesser range even with CFT than rafale on internal fuel only ... i maybe wrong can some one tell it in detail i mean a comparison chart between ASH and Rafale

LCA tejas MK-1 with infra cost is around 45 Million of 240 crore.

 

[GURU DUTT]

LCA tejas MK-1 with infra cost is around 45 Million of 240 crore.

you mean LCA MK1 with service , spares , weapons and training cost 1/4th of ASH and almost 1/6th the similar cost of rafale man thats the best way just add a latest AESA and AESA based combined EW-ECM avionick suite and an external jammer pod its almost 1/2 as capable not bad at all

 

[C130]

ASH is in no way 120million with spares , service training and weapons(life cycle cost) its somewhere between 150-180 millon dollars and i gues it dont have things like SPECTRA and internal IRST sensor and can carry load not more than 7.5 tonne externally and has a lesser range even with CFT than rafale on internal fuel only ... i maybe wrong can some one tell it in detail i mean a comparison chart between ASH and Rafale

I didn't calculate life cycle cost since I don't even know what the life cycle cost would be for the ASH, but I believe it would be less than the regular Super Hornet.

the enhance engine is suppose to be more durable and need less maintenance. and time off the aircraft.

 

[Taygibay]

Zebra my friend, you do not need EMALS.

The development is not finished for one and more importantly,
having even steam catapults will propel India to the podium ...
as only the US and France have CATOBAR carriers ATM period?

Just sayin', Tay.

 

[GURU DUTT]

I didn't calculate life cycle cost since I don't even know what the life cycle cost would be for the ASH, but I believe it would be less than the regular Super Hornet.

the enhance engine is suppose to be more durable and need less maintenance. and time off the aircraft.

ok fair enof what about internal IRST sensor and something like SPECTRA or do you have a comparrison chart of ASH with any of the other current 4.5+ gen fighter jet

 

[zebra7]

Oh, yes, I understand that your article is from April and says :
"Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said ..."

More plants does not necessarily mean different fighters. Same thing as more lines.

I also understand that you are unbearably full of yourself calling others silly twice ...
so that I'll refer again to your pretense about the SAAB GaN AESA that you thought
was coming with a Grr line when in fact it is this :
http://saab.com/land/istar/multi-role-surveillance-system/giraffe-4a/
and won't fit on Gripen.

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As said in my post #3931.

I understand that you are a smug arrogant person who comes back with calls of silly-ness
to others after having been demonstrably proven wrong!
I understand that you have a pathological inability to distinguish reality as your ego is in the way.

I also understand that making such crass, false and disrespectful calls is safer on Internet.

Cowardly but good for you, no doubt, Tay.

C'mon Sir, he is defending the undefendable argument, and the logic of LSA , Cutting edge GaN AESA all comes from the discussion held in another forum IDF, and the various articles produced by the Cutting edge Delhi based defence analysts.

GaN technology is the technology to produce the T/R modules components, which could be designed to pack in small space. It does not make the Radar Super duper just because it has the GaN modules, rather most of the radars worldwide might be using the components from same OEM, e.g even Russians uses the T/R modules produced by the Canadian firm. But that T/R modules make the Antenna Gimlet part, which could be upgraded latter.
For example EL/M-2032 and EL/M-2052 Aesa radar have the same backend CPU.

 

[GURU DUTT]

C'mon Sir, he is defending the undefendable argument, and the logic of LSA , Cutting edge GaN AESA all comes from the discussion held in another forum IDF, and the various articles produced by the Cutting edge Delhi based defence analysts.

GaN technology is the technology to produce the T/R modules components, which could be designed to pack in small space. It does not make the Radar Super duper just because it has the GaN modules, rather most of the radars worldwide might be using the components from same OEM, e.g even Russians uses the T/R modules produced by the Canadian firm. But that T/R modules make the Antenna Gimlet part, which could be upgraded latter.
For example EL/M-2032 and EL/M-2052 Aesa radar have the same backend CPU.

sirji can you tell me more on the AESA subject like what is the price diffrence between say EL-2052 and RB2AA or the CAPTOR AESA and there performance ... thanks in advance

 

[Taygibay]

Actually, Zebra, there is a common plant making AESA components in Europe with 2 locations.
http://www.ums-gaas.com

The rear end on each radar is different and the leader is Thales with the lone European one in service.
America has its own sources.

More importantly, people don't seem to get it that GaN over Gallium arsenide allows for higher output by
a couple watts which will likely be used to derive gains in temperature management of the units as well.

In other words, the step from GaAs to GaN brings immensely less than from PESA to AESA and
will only be pursued by these already making and using AESA radars for now while the others try
to master the initial new tech and then the refinement.

Which is where we join reasonings you and I from your above #3966.

Have a great day, mate. Tay.

P.S. @ GuruD
The differences in size in standard radars still exist with skin antennaes
coming to the rescue ( distributed aperture ).
The range improvements are substantial but need not to outreach missiles.

The capacities however are dependent on high maths/program driving the device.
You get to do more things at once compared to PESA, sub-divide work sectors in
your general field/volume, operate EW tactics ( noise, cancellation, etc ), exchange
data and still all at once.

So performances can't be guessed at really. Prices are easier.

 

[C130]

ok fair enof what about internal IRST sensor and something like SPECTRA or do you have a comparrison chart of ASH with any of the other current 4.5+ gen fighter jet

internal IRST is possible this picture shows it with one

as for SPECTRA the ALQ-214/ v4/5 is it's EW protection suite

https://clearedcareers.com/opm-names-leaders-transform-background-investigations/

Exelis Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Harris Corp., Clifton, New Jersey, is being awarded an $88,333,440 modification to a previously awarded cost-plus-fixed-fee, fixed-price-incentive-firm contract (N00019-15-C-0104) to exercise an option for the manufacture and delivery of 48 full-rate production Lot 13 integrated defensive electronic countermeasures AN/ALQ-214(V)4/5 onboard jammer systems in support of the Navy’s F/A-18C/D/EF aircraft. Work will be performed in Clifton, New Jersey (31 percent); San Jose, California (26 percent); San Diego, California (11 percent); Rancho Cordova, California (5 percent); Mountain View, California (4 percent); Hudson, New Hampshire (2 percent); and various locations within the U.S. (21 percent), and is expected to be completed in December 2018. Fiscal 2016 aircraft procurement (Navy) funds in the amount of $88,333,440 are being obligated at time of award, none of which will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. The Naval Air Systems Command, Patuxent River, Maryland, is the contracting activity.


but I wouldn't just buy the ASH I would pick up some EG-18 Growers to jam and take out radars and sams

 

[W@rwolf]

@W@rwolf @Taygibay

I hope this clears all your silly doubts.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...be-built-by-private-sector/article8248084.ece
Do you understand what's happening now?

This is all the way back from April 2015.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...o-replace-mig-21-parrikar-115041500007_1.html
Get it?

This plan has been in the making since years now. This is apart from the Rafales. This single engine program has always depended on the success or failure of the LCA program.

So a total of possibly 2 or 3 fighter jet projects.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...er-make-in-india-parrikar-116061800668_1.html
Parrikar has pushed the MII to next year just so he can be sure about the progress of the LCA program. There is still a bit of uncertainty there.

And if you lot don't believe Parrikar, then how about AM Raha?
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/fighter-aircrafts-make-in-india-iaf/
This should irrefutably end the silly discussion.

We have to replace 21 squadrons, that's 400-440 aircraft. Right now we are committed to about 14 squadrons, 6 Rafale and 8 LCA, total of 270. We are short of 7 squadrons, 140+. That's where the second program will come up. In the meantime, IAF will rotate 50 operational aircraft to make new squadrons in order to make up for 54 aircraft that were phased out last year. Let's not talk about attrition.

The negotiations are complete. So it's almost done. At least we know it is in the procedural stage now.

I hope your misunderstandings have been cleared.

Parrikar know what's good for IAF, so does IAF. And inducting more types into the fleet when they're currently trying to reduce the same, with multi-role platforms rather than role-specific platforms, should have given you a clue.

Gripen-E is atleast 6 years away from induction. By that time Mk-2 LSPs will be flying too.

@Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
@W@rwolf
@GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre

Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed

1. Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
2. A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
3. Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.

The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.

Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.

Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.

This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.

Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.

That's great news! More or less along the lines of my thoughts too.

The 200+ plus number for IAF and another 140+ Rafales for IN will play havoc with the delivery schedule. Only 2 ways this can be achieved if we need to induct them all before 2030;

1. The MII line should hav a peak production rate of 25 jets per year.
2. More Rafale should be bought from the Merignac line over the current planned numbers (36 IAF + 18 IN [?])

Any idea on the Combat Hawk figures that are to be produced if the MII line is finalized? Also, will it include the modernization of the current fleet of Hawks?

The deal for drones will negate the need for buying F-16/FA-18 as reciprocity for US help in the world stage.
Also, i don't see the F-35s coming to India until we've sorted out the ITAR, LEMOA, BECA, CISMOA issues.

 

[randomradio]

Oh, yes, I understand that your article is from April and says :
"Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said ..."

More plants does not necessarily mean different fighters. Same thing as more lines.

Incorrect. We are talking about different fighter jets, not multiple lines by the same fighter. That doesn't even make sense. Why will India have to pay twice for the lines?

I also understand that you are unbearably full of yourself calling others silly twice ...

Yes, you are being silly. You insult India, you insult its DM, you insult its people. You have done this many times in the past and I have called you out for it, like I'm gonna do so again.

What's this shit about claiming India doesn't have the manpower to build Rafales but can build Tejas easy-peasy. All you want to do is use your humongous ego to insult other people. Here's the quote from the previous page:
"Because here's the fun part, when an engineer or doctor comes out of school
he or she is still years from being top notch on the terrain. In high tech industries,
job providers like adaptable youngsters yet unspecialized that grow on the job.

And not being racist, I refuse to admit to a reason why Indians would not do as
well as any other!"

Yeah, yeah, now your defence will be you didn't insult anybody.

@Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
@W@rwolf
@GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre

Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed

Vstol said that apart from Rafale and LCA, two other fighters will be chosen. And the competition list also includes the Russians, his own jet and the western jets.

ASH is in no way 120million with spares , service training and weapons(life cycle cost) its somewhere between 150-180 millon dollars and i gues it dont have things like SPECTRA and internal IRST sensor and can carry load not more than 7.5 tonne externally and has a lesser range even with CFT than rafale on internal fuel only ... i maybe wrong can some one tell it in detail i mean a comparison chart between ASH and Rafale

It's not. Our American friend here has not considered a lot of other prices, like upgrades, customization and base infrastructure. The USN has already paid for all of that, so the successive fighters get cheaper when you order more.

 

[Abingdonboy]

SO Is the AESA for MK 1 A Finalised

That is set in stone, the EL/M-2052 will be delivered in the MK-1A from 2018 onwards. I do agree though that the RBE 2 would have been a more logical choice for the MK-1A for the sake of commonality. As it stands there will be at least 3 different fighter AESA radars in IAF service come 2020.

 

[GURU DUTT]

That is set in stone, the EL/M-2052 will be delivered in the MK-1A from 2018 onwards. I do agree though that the RBE 2 would have been a more logical choice for the MK-1A for the sake of commonality. As it stands there will be at least 3 different fighter AESA radars in IAF service come 2020.

but bhai ji isnt EL2052 cheaper and more sensible option as we have good quantities of israeli air to air and air to ground munations and other things like targeting and jamming pods which are like plug and play for EL2052 while for RBE2AA we would need all of them coming from france and french stuff is quite expensive than israeli stuff but can some one tell me which one of the AESA radar is better and whats the performance and cost of them both

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio Did you got the answer of your question which bird will fill the void of MIG-21 replacement.

There are a total of 4 aircraft choices for replacing the Mig-21, two will be chosen. One's already been made and another is pending.

If you want an AESA for LCA Mk 1A you can take RBE2 AA.

That's subject to the completion of the Rafale deal. ADA can't wait that long.

LCA itself is turning out to be much better than hoped. We will see a major reduction in weight.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016.../UQMw+(LiveFist+-+The+Best+of+Indian+Defence)

 

[Abingdonboy]

but bhai ji isnt EL2052 cheaper and more sensible option as we have good quantities of israeli air to air and air to ground munations and other things like targeting and jamming pods which are like plug and play for EL2052 while for RBE2AA we would need all of them coming from france and french stuff is quite expensive than israeli stuff but can some one tell me which one of the AESA radar is better and whats the performance and cost of them both

What you say is perfectly reasonable brother and it may be the case it is easier/cheaper to integrate systems with the 2052.

There won't be much difference between the capabilities and cost of the RBE2 and the 2052 imo BUT the real advantage will be in commonality. Looked at in isolation both units are great force multipliers to the IAF but one has to consider that they will be in service in large numbers in two frontline fighters of the IAF for the foreseeable future and will require entirely different spares and support.


This isn't a huge issue as it is a rather common issue the IAF is used to by now, it would just have been more optimal for some standardisation to have taken place.