Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Spectre]

And not being racist, I refuse to admit to a reason why Indians would not do as
well as any other!



LOL, name one?

Have a great day mate, Tay.

R word is a heavy one to use and I didn't certainly intend to imply some racial inferiority but when it comes down it there is still a gulf which needs to be bridged. Indians in IT and Finance have shown to themselves to be top level managers but somehow back home we seem to be dragged down by the sludge of bureaucracy, corruption and lethargy. So the factors are not genetic but enviornmental in my opinion. Anyway what do I know! may be it will work out and DA will bring in a high tech revolution in Indian Defense Industry or just may be India will bring DA down to it's level.

Either way it is uncertain..

As for naming one alternative - we are treading the much trodden grounds here - I ll say F-16->F35 and either you or @PARIKRAMA or @Abingdonboy will come up with counters which I will then again counter. So I ll skip right to end of it and say - Yeah Rafale is the king of the hill at the moment but the benefit of going with LM is two fold

You get a competent jet ASAP without the scheduling problems facing DA with expanded order book. US transfers upgraded F-16s to India in interim and India gets an option to get it hands on true blue next gen jets with a much broader developmental path and much needed stealth tech which Russia failed to provide.

India right now lacks firepower to deliver the pain to neighbors cross the Himalayas but with F-35s we might just do that as there is still no hard counter to well network squadrons of F-35s, F-16s.

Second benefit is that I am assured that a commitment here will get us access to restricted goodies such as Avengers, carrier technology which will synergise well with F-35 C and real collaboration in developing indigenous jet engines. Then there is US->Israel->India angle in case of strategic defence articles like WMD shields.

Then there is geo-strategic factors at play and France is a neutral party where as US is sufficiently motivated to help us. So in a nutshell it is a "Khichdhi" translated as "broth or soup" of factors which come together to push for secondary alternatives.

P.S. Before reading me the riot act - note that I have more or less conceded that on a stand alone basis Rafale is great and probably the option but when we look through broader lenses things ironically get a lot fuzzier.

 

[randomradio]

India right now lacks firepower to deliver the pain to neighbors cross the Himalayas but with F-35s we might just do that as there is still no hard counter to well network squadrons of F-35s, F-16s.

The only operational western jets that can deliver the pain across the Himalayas today are the Rafale and the Raptor. No other jet. If we can't fly above Chinese lands, we can't win.

The F-35 should eventually do that only after 2021.
http://www.defensetech.org/2014/04/16/pentagon-develops-f-35s-4th-generation-software/

A big part of the developmental calculus for Block 4 is to work on the kinds of enemy air defense systems and weaponry the aircraft may face from the 2020’s through the 2040’s and beyond.

And even if the IAF orders F-35s today, we won't be getting those jets until 2025 or later because of the delays and order backlog. By then the F-35 is going to be pointless because of the FGFA and AMCA.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Some small snippets

1. Rafale deal final price file note pending with DM MP.
2. Internally MP note once forwarded will lead to 4-6 weeks more time before CCS will look into the approval and signing part of the contract. So July end to Aug middle or till August end seems more plausible option.
3. Among the other news
   • F16 line transfer is the most legitimate offer from USA side but DM MP not impressed.
   • In the words of DM MP it's a generation old technology and experts have suggested that it's running in lifeline of tech upgrades with no long term future prospects.
   • The same experts opined that instead of a fleet of 160 F16 India can very well buy 4 squadrons of F35 or 60 odd F35s as they will do more than enough instead of F16s. But such a small number won't give any kind of MII benefit at all.
   • The latest offer from Boeing does not have make in India plan. Instead it plans to build parts of the F18 in TASL like doing the work of Apache in TASL facility. This way Boeing has pitched in a deal for 80 jets directly supplied from USA. Boeing has assured delivery at the rate of 24+ jets a year and the whole delivery of the order in max 5 years with delivery starting from 1.5years of contract signing.
   • Again DM MP not impressed.
   • The much publicised campaign of Gripen E is also going nowhere. The blacklisting of Finmeccanica and replacement of its products by Israeli is going no place. The Saab has requested a last week of July date for submitting a new offer with such issues being sorted.
   • Saab has pitched Gripen E as LCA Mk2 and is saying technological know how can flow into Mk1A.
   • DM MP not impressed.
   • Eric Trappier has sent a verbal communication via some official (rumoured to be french ambassador) with careful words saying Dassault geared up for tranche 1 order of 90 jets. DM MP has reverted back that Dassault needs to give more under packaged deal and take not just tranche 1 but all 5 tranches.
   • A good news is F21 heavy water torpedo won't require major modifications in scorpene and Arihant. The modification will be very minor in nature.
4. FGFA internal date is now 2026 and beyond. A proposal to evaluate PAKFA is planned in 2020-21. If it meets the evaluation and if IAF agrees, between 2022-27 in 5 years a total of 100 PAKFA may be planned as a back up in case MII portions are delayed.
5. LCA review and status of progress in coming weeks.MP is seriously contemplating a private line under MII. Lead names - L&T, Tata Aero and Reliance Defence. Mahindra aerospace may also make the cut for evaluation. Serious names being L&T and TASLwith L&T as front runner.

What games is MP playing here brother?

First he said a matter of weeks in March, then he assured contract finalisation in June and now it is being pushed back until the end of August? Does MP realise the dangerous game he is playing? He is showing no sense of urgency at all and thusly failing in his duty as the defence minister of India.

@PARIKRAMA bro is there any insight into the Off the shelf delivery schedule? I believe it had been stated that a early 2016 signature would ensure 2018 deliveries but if the Egyptians are about to place a follow on order and pip the IAF then India is going to lose out and ultimately the very objective of addressing the urgent needs of the IAF will be undermined.


+ many congrats on your new title bro, fully deserved; you should have been given it a long long time ago IMHO.

 

[randomradio]

@W@rwolf @Taygibay

I hope this clears all your silly doubts.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...be-built-by-private-sector/article8248084.ece

Officially throwing open the contest for fighter aircraft once again, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said that India will select one or two fighter aircraft which will be manufactured locally by a private company under Make in India initiative. This is in addition to the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the production of which is being scaled up.

India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.

Do you understand what's happening now?

This is all the way back from April 2015.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...o-replace-mig-21-parrikar-115041500007_1.html

"Rafale is not a replacement for MiG-21. LCA Tejas is a replacement for MiG-21. Or, if we build some other fighter under 'Make in India', that is also possible. If we build another single engine [fighter] in India, which is possible, that could be a replacement for the MiG-21", said Parrikar.

Get it?

This plan has been in the making since years now. This is apart from the Rafales. This single engine program has always depended on the success or failure of the LCA program.

So a total of possibly 2 or 3 fighter jet projects.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...er-make-in-india-parrikar-116061800668_1.html

"We are in the process of putting up 2 to 3 different projects in Make in India in aerospace sector which will require environment creation and skilled manpower," he said.

Parrikar has pushed the MII to next year just so he can be sure about the progress of the LCA program. There is still a bit of uncertainty there.

And if you lot don't believe Parrikar, then how about AM Raha?
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/fighter-aircrafts-make-in-india-iaf/

“We are likely to get the Rafael soon… The government will also be inducting LCA in very large numbers — close to 120 as of now… They are also thinking of setting up one more line of fighter aircrafts in India under the Make in India project, so that the dwindling fighter aircraft force can be replaced at the shortest possible time. It is going to mature in a year,” Raha added.

This should irrefutably end the silly discussion.

We have to replace 21 squadrons, that's 400-440 aircraft. Right now we are committed to about 14 squadrons, 6 Rafale and 8 LCA, total of 270. We are short of 7 squadrons, 140+. That's where the second program will come up. In the meantime, IAF will rotate 50 operational aircraft to make new squadrons in order to make up for 54 aircraft that were phased out last year. Let's not talk about attrition.

What games is MP playing here brother?

First he said a matter of weeks in March, then he assured contract finalisation in June and now it is being pushed back until the end of August? Does MP realise the dangerous game he is playing? He is showing no sense of urgency at all and thusly failing in his duty as the defence minister of India.

The negotiations are complete. So it's almost done. At least we know it is in the procedural stage now.

 

[BON PLAN]

USN bought 37 F/A 18 E/F in 2013 for $2.57 billion/37=$69 million each, but I read ASH mod would tack another 10% to 15% so that's about $8.5 million more to the cost so $77.5 million flyaway cost

It is what I called a "dry" price. ie without support and base accomodations as SH is already in the navy since years.... all is already made or installed as shelters, tools, bench, procedures....

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
@W@rwolf
@GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre

Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed

1. Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
2. A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
3. Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.

The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.

Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.

Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.

This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.

Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
@W@rwolf
@GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre

Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed

1. Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
2. A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
3. Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.

The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.

Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.

Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.

This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.

Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.

SO Is the AESA for MK 1 A Finalised

 

[Taygibay]

I hope this clears all your silly doubts.

This should irrefutably end the silly discussion.

Do you understand what's happening now?

Oh, yes, I understand that your article is from April and says :
"Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said ..."

More plants does not necessarily mean different fighters. Same thing as more lines.

I also understand that you are unbearably full of yourself calling others silly twice ...
so that I'll refer again to your pretense about the SAAB GaN AESA that you thought
was coming with a Grr line when in fact it is this :
http://saab.com/land/istar/multi-role-surveillance-system/giraffe-4a/
and won't fit on Gripen.

​

As said in my post #3931.

I understand that you are a smug arrogant person who comes back with calls of silly-ness
to others after having been demonstrably proven wrong!
I understand that you have a pathological inability to distinguish reality as your ego is in the way.

I also understand that making such crass, false and disrespectful calls is safer on Internet.

Cowardly but good for you, no doubt, Tay.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

SO Is the AESA for MK 1 A Finalised

If you want an AESA for LCA Mk 1A you can take RBE2 AA.

 

[GURU DUTT]

@Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
@W@rwolf
@GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre

Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed

1. Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
2. A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
3. Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.

The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.

Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.

Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.

This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.

Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.

now thats quite close to what even i heared but only diffrence in all that was instead of going for a US fighter .... AKA F16V or ASH IAF plans a 100+ UCAVs from USA which i say more bang for the money and save money and training costs as for F35 in IAF well that might be not possible but surely IN AF wants a couple of squads of F35C for sure apart from 36 to 54 Rafale M but who knows and if all goes well we might see latest version of EL2052 AESA on LCA MK1A and possibally a american internal IRST or a pod version

If you want an AESA for LCA Mk 1A you can take RBE2 AA.

thats a Great idea aswell but at what cost i mean with EL2052 we dont need any extra work for intigrating Python5 and Derby and the LITENING LDP but we have quite a work if we go for RB2AA for MK1A....waise whats the market price od EL-2052 and RBE2AA ?

 

[C130]

It is what I called a "dry" price. ie without support and base accomodations as SH is already in the navy since years.... all is already made or installed as shelters, tools, bench, procedures....

yes I know that , that's why I am saying each will be about $120 million compared to Rafales $250 million each

36 ASH=$4.3 billion
36 Rafale=$9 billion

and Dassualt actually wanted $12 billion at first too, so about $325 each, this is including the plane,shelters,spares,training, weapons etc etc

 

[21 Dec 2012]

There is absolutely no way that India will be allowed to operate F-35 and PAK-FA together. You're gonna have to choose one of the two.

 

[GURU DUTT]

yes I know that , that's why I am saying each will be about $120 million compared to Rafales $250 million each

36 ASH=$4.3 billion
36 Rafale=$9 billion

and Dassualt actually wanted $12 billion at first too, so about $325 each, this is including the plane,shelters,spares,training, weapons etc etc

ASH is in no way 120million with spares , service training and weapons(life cycle cost) its somewhere between 150-180 millon dollars and i gues it dont have things like SPECTRA and internal IRST sensor and can carry load not more than 7.5 tonne externally and has a lesser range even with CFT than rafale on internal fuel only ... i maybe wrong can some one tell it in detail i mean a comparison chart between ASH and Rafale

 

[zebra7]

@Picdelamirand-oil @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @zebra7 @BON PLAN @randomradio
@W@rwolf
@GURU DUTT @Stephen Cohen @Spectre

Today morning I had a discussion again with my source.. he has confirmed the 3 proposals as of now which is more or less confirmed

1. Rafale MII and probably the only twin jet MMRCA under consideration. The overall contour of the deal remains in the massive 300+ numbers due to IAF itself requesting for 200+ standalone and IN need pegged at approx 144. Again it will be a mix of Merignac and Indian line fulfilling orders.
2. A private line for LCA and a plan for MK1A and MK2.
3. Weaponsied Hawk with BAE especially now as UK and India will sign a free trade agreement and a host if bilateral stuff within next 12-18 months for internal safekeeping and assuring UK economy. A side prospect pushed was weaponsied HTT40 but hawk is more preferred.

The strongest contender as I said earlier outside the planned 3 is still F16 toF35 upgrade route. But India is planning for a total of 100+ US drones from General Atomics for q mix of all services needs. So LM F16 may not see the light of the day. In the meantime a order of 4 sqda of F35 may be purchased but not now.

Boeing ASH is not favoured by IAF or IN and the scope of work via offseta through TASL is not agreeable to India. The route is suggested by Boeing to avoid Senate issue but it's not going anywhere.

Gripen E is still not given a serious thinking. In the words of Arup Raha who after taking a back seat ride has commented that Gripen E in a proper matured platform with all due certifications is 5-6 years away. With the price tag and time required for fulfilling our IAF needs, IAF will prefer LCA MK1A and will like only Rafale to be the imported and make in India project.

This has impressed DM MP a lot who has now found support from IAF for LCA project. On July1 with induction of LCA 1st squadron expect a slew of announcement to boost LCA project.

Rest all in media is speculations. Including the cost part.

Actually going with the Combat Hawk makes sense, to fill the void created after the MIG-21/27 requirement.

There have been the series of article written in the Indian Media, specially from the Delhi Print house, question arises why SAAB office is still open but strangely why members like @randomradio is hell bend to follow the illusion. Just checking the twisted words of statements, and the unknown Senior Naval or Airforce official is more than enough to understand the motive.

As far as U.S F16 and F18 is concerned, IAF is not in favour of US rather French Aircraft even before the MMRCA, due to the familarization of the french bird, and the commonality of the spares, equipment's aka infrastructure and also the weapons.

@randomradio Did you got the answer of your question which bird will fill the void of MIG-21 replacement.

As far as UAVs are considered, I think India would go for the US UAVs for the surveillance and Anti submarine operation, and not for the combat role, niether India is going to use for the anti terrorist operation. They will go for the Israeli prop powered UAVs, but will eventually go for the turbo fan powered in a big way -- Ghatak.

@PARIKRAMA -- A question still stands, we have give something to US for the EMALs, could you ask your source about that. In my view, MTA transport fleet could be the key for that.

 

[GURU DUTT]

There is absolutely no way that India will be allowed to operate F-35 and PAK-FA together. You're gonna have to choose one of the two.

IAF will never go for F35 but IN sure wants two to three full squads of F35C