Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

I don't think people have fully appreciated the numbers.

Phase 1:
IAF requirement = 400 by 2027
IN requirement = 150 by 2027

IAF:
Rafale 36+90 = 126. 90 MII
LCA Mk1/A = 144
Left over = 130
Production time = 10 years. IAF wants full squadron strength of 42 over 10 years.

IN
N-LCA Mk1 = 6
N-LCA Mk2 = 45
Left over = 100
Production time = 10 years

It is impossible for LCA or Rafale to finish their current orders fast enough. It will take Rafale 7.5 years to deliver all 90 to the IAF, that's 2027. It will take LCA 8 years to deliver 144 to the IAF, that's 2024. What do you think IN's going to do in that time? They need spare production capacity as well, especially the Rafales. And this not even counting the extra 130 jets that the IAF needs. It is impossible without a second MRCA 'production line' that delivers jets in parallel to the Rafale and LCA.

And you guys haven't considered attrition at all.

In total IAF and IN need 550 jets in 10 years from now. Now, you lot, @Taygibay and @W@rwolf, decide how this requirement is split up. It's 55 jets a year.

what is LSA ?

An Indian single engine 5th gen aircraft. Has stealth, supercruise, IWB etc. Light Stealth Aircraft.

 

[GURU DUTT]

An Indian single engine 5th gen aircraft. Has stealth, supercruise, IWB etc. Light Stealth Aircraft.

well that shount be a problem we can add a stealthy nose cone and over all stealth design with angelled twin horizontal stabalizers and a detachable stealth gondola like of advanced super hornet on LCA which can do just fine like this one

or maybe a single engined version of this LCA fan art concept

 

[randomradio]

well that shount be a problem we can add a stealthy nose cone and over all stealth design with angelled twin horizontal stabalizers and a detachable stealth gondola like of advanced super hornet on LCA which can do just fine like this one

No, that's not possible for LCA. LCA doesn't have planform alignment or space for IWB. It has a vertical fin. And a stealth pod adds drag, which reduces its already low range. And LCA has obviously not been made for supercruise.

LSA is being made for a payload of 7.5 tons, it has higher fuel fraction than the MKI and can carry 16 missiles in its ultimate form. Even MKI can carry only 12, LCA can carry 6. It can supercruise greater than mach 1.5.

The Rafale design is a concept art.

 

[GURU DUTT]

No, that's not possible for LCA. LCA doesn't have planform alignment or space for IWB. It has a vertical fin. And a stealth pod adds drag, which reduces its already low range. And LCA has obviously not been made for supercruise.

LSA is being made for a payload of 7.5 tons, it has higher fuel fraction than the MKI and can carry 16 missiles in its ultimate form. Even MKI can carry only 12, LCA can carry 6. It can supercruise greater than mach 1.5.

The Rafale design is a concept art.

so basically your talking about AMCA ... well they have indeed changed name again from MCA to AMCA to LSA now

 

[randomradio]

so basically your talking about AMCA ... well they have indeed changed name again from MCA to AMCA to LSA now

Haha. No. The problem with LSA is it is much smaller than AMCA. LSA is 6.5 tons empty, while AMCA is twice that. So the LSA is being designed as an escort aircraft for the MKI. So the MKI can carry a lot of ordinance while the LSA will protect it with its large array of missiles.

AMCA will be far more advanced in every way. LSA is supposed to be a cheap fighter with new tech. It is designed to exceed the entire Tejas program in every single way.

In fact LSA will kill the need for both LCA and Rafale. Apparently, the Israelis want to buy 100 of these jets if the program gets the go ahead, and they will transfer all technologies for the LSA's avionics. Parrikar will make the decision to either go for it or scuttle it after the 36 aircraft contract is finished.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Haha. No. The problem with LSA is it is much smaller than AMCA. LSA is 6.5 tons empty, while AMCA is twice that. So the LSA is being designed as an escort aircraft for the MKI. So the MKI can carry a lot of ordinance while the LSA will protect it with its large array of missiles.

AMCA will be far more advanced in every way. LSA is supposed to be a cheap fighter with new tech. It is designed to exceed the entire Tejas program in every single way.

In fact LSA will kill the need for both LCA and Rafale. Apparently, the Israelis want to buy 100 of these jets if the program gets the go ahead, and they will transfer all technologies for the LSA's avionics. Parrikar will make the decision to either go for it or scuttle it after the 36 aircraft contract is finished.

LCA MK2 & AMCA is still on design board and HAL dreaming of LSA

well right now as things are going with HAL and ADA and DRDO prospects of LSA are no more than say 1:100 but then .... umeed pe duniya kayam hai

 

[W@rwolf]

You may not think so, but you are wrong. A hardpoint won't be wasted because one of them will carry twin arms for a missile and the pod.

Is it your own conjecture or do you have any substantial evidence that ADA/HAL might be working on it?

I don't think people have fully appreciated the numbers.

IAF:
Rafale 36+90 = 126. 90 MII
LCA Mk1/A = 144
Left over = 130
Production time = 10 years. IAF wants full squadron strength of 42 over 10 years.

IN
N-LCA Mk1 = 6
N-LCA Mk2 = 45
Left over = 100
Production time = 10 years

It is impossible for LCA or Rafale to finish their current orders fast enough. It will take Rafale 7.5 years to deliver all 90 to the IAF, that's 2027. It will take LCA 8 years to deliver 144 to the IAF, that's 2024. What do you think IN's going to do in that time? They need spare production capacity as well, especially the Rafales. And this not even counting the extra 130 jets that the IAF needs. It is impossible without a second MRCA 'production line' that delivers jets in parallel to the Rafale and LCA.

And you guys haven't considered attrition at all.

In total IAF and IN need 550 jets in 10 years from now. Now, you lot, @Taygibay and @W@rwolf, decide how this requirement is split up. It's 55 jets a year.

Made a few changes to your figures. Let's see if it makes better sense.

IAF

Tejas Mk-1 = 20+20
Tejas Mk-1A = 108 (HAL + MII)
Tejas Mk-2 = 144 (HAL + MII)
Rafale = 36 + 90MII

Total = 418 (23 Sqn)

IN

NLCA Mk-2 = 45 (HAL + MII)
Rafale-M = 54MII (for IAC-2)

Total = 99 (5 Sqn)

HAL will assemble 16 jets per year at its peak performance. MII line can deliver 12-16 jets per year, commencing from 2019. That implies 337 Tejas Mk-1/1A/2/NLCA jets can be delivered by 2027-'28.
Rafale production line at Merignac will supply 36 jets in 5 years, and another 18 Rafale-Ms will delivered directly while the rest will be MII. The MII line will start deliveries in 2019, peak capacity of 12-16 jets per year, delivering the remaining 126 in 8 years.

 

[randomradio]

LCA MK2 & AMCA is still on design board and HAL dreaming of LSA

It's not HAL's project.

Is it your own conjecture or do you have any substantial evidence that ADA/HAL might be working on it?

HAL officials have confirmed it. Twin arm for pod and missile.

Tejas Mk-1 = 20+20

At 16/year, that's 2.5 years. So let's say 2018.5.

Tejas Mk-1A = 108 (HAL + MII)

At 16/year, that's 6.75 years. That's 2025.

Tejas Mk-2 = 144 (HAL + MII)

At 16/year, from 2024, that's 2033.

Waah bhai! So your numbers will be reached only in 2033.

IN

NLCA Mk-2 = 45 (HAL + MII)

This will take 2.8 years. Now where do you want to fit this in because all the production went to the IAF? You've just thrown numbers around without giving any consideration to the time it takes to build these jets.

Let me give you the actual break up of the production.
LCA IAF: 144 jets in 8 years. That's 2024.
LCA IN: 45 jets in 3 years. That's 2027.

This ends LCA production for India. All future production will go towards export markets.

Rafale-M = 54MII (for IAC-2)

Now Rafale. 90 for IAF and 54 for IN. That's 9 years production time at 16 per year. So that's 2029.

HAL will assemble 16 jets per year at its peak performance. MII line can deliver 12-16 jets per year, commencing from 2019. That implies 337 Tejas Mk-1/1A/2/NLCA jets can be delivered by 2027-'28.

16*10=160 jets. How did it magically increase to 337?

For 337 jets we need to manufacture 33.7 jets a year. Where's that production capacity? Not to mention you have considered 144 jets will be manufactured in just 3-4 years flat.

Rafale production line at Merignac will supply 36 jets in 5 years, and another 18 Rafale-Ms will delivered directly while the rest will be MII. The MII line will start deliveries in 2019, peak capacity of 12-16 jets per year, delivering the remaining 126 in 8 years.

Your numbers for Rafale is acceptable. But your numbers for Tejas is all over the place.

So if we don't consider your tribal math for Tejas, we will have all the Rafales for IAF and IN, only 160 LCAs in 10 years. That's a grand total of 340 jets. Now what about the remaining 210 jets? My numbers have not changed at all, even after you calculated it yourself.

I told you, we need to produce 55 jets a year.

 

[BON PLAN]

And again , 150 million USD , I get Gripen E/F with Israel AESA ( or any other , but not Italian )

No other radar than the Raven ES05 Selex one is on the drawing board for Gripen. And you can't change of radar as you change a wheel on a car.
So for a very long time, Gripen E will be sold with this radar and only this one.

(Take the radar out of the nose and apply it to the fuselage?? Really?)

I think RANDOM RADIO was speaking about conformal antennae on the two sides of the Rafale.
I don't think the nose radar will vanished. But will be complemented by 2 side conformal antennae.
Picdelamirand is far more aware of that.

 

[W@rwolf]

HAL officials have confirmed it. Twin arm for pod and missile.

I haven't seen it yet. Could you send a link?

But your numbers for Tejas is all over the place.

You didn't understand my break-up.
HAL+MII -> two production lines churning out 32 jets per year.

 

[BON PLAN]

36 Rafale for 8.9 billion euros
36 ASH for $2.5 billion

don't see how that's even remotely close in cost.

And you think it's with the same support and ToT and ... ???

 

[W@rwolf]

I think RANDOM RADIO was speaking about conformal antennae on the two sides of the Rafale.
I don't think the nose radar will vanished. But will be complemented by 2 side conformal antennae.
Picdelamirand is far more aware of that.

I went through some documents again. What Thales/Dassault is suggesting is that the GaN modules can be miniaturized thereby using them to integrate arrays spread over the surface of the airframe (front, conformal, wings, rear etc) to give a 360deg view without any blind spots (Interestingly what IAF want in the FGFA)

Even more futuristic, but also possible: replacing existing radar nose antenna by conformal ones, smart "skins" that could be easily spread over the cell combining radar, jamming, communications and other purposes ...

The Rafale hidden beauties and its future

 

[BON PLAN]

ASH will be about $70 million each, including weapons,training, service

stop dreaming Bro.

 

[C130]

stop dreaming Bro.

it's true

 

[randomradio]

No other radar than the Raven ES05 Selex one is on the drawing board for Gripen. And you can't change of radar as you change a wheel on a car.
So for a very long time, Gripen E will be sold with this radar and only this one.

Selex has been banned.

Anyway, the way I see it, we will first choose a jet by 2017, and the entire contract process will take a year more, then production will start a year later. So there's a lot of time for Gripen to enter production.

Dassault may deliver the first Rafale MII only after 2019, Gripen may come in after 2020 or 2021. That's 6 years away. There's no way the other competitors can deliver their jets before 2020.