Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

36 Rafale for 8.9 billion euros
36 ASH for $2.5 billion

don't see how that's even remotely close in cost.

I think you are talking about the Super Hornet Block 2 being purchased by the USN, and not ASH. And fly away price won't count for much because your price for the SH is half of what Brazil is paying for the Gripens.

In fact the Rafale is cheaper than the price you've quoted for the SH. If you consider a 18-18 split between Rafale single and twin seat for the IAF, then the total cost will come up to $2.4B, that's cheaper than the SH. And the Rafale comes with all the modern goodies, Spectra, FSO, sensor fusion.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Even Picdel doesn't know. The data came from a French pilot.

GaN is there, but it's part of the conformal array program that will come after 2021. Right now, GaN is only for Spectra.

Can you say where I said that? Don't talk when you don't know how the Rafale program is proceeding. I have been following it for years now.

GaN for radar is 5 years away. It's targeted for service entry after 2021.

Follow this thread. I hope information is there.
https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/

The development is already done for both: SPECTRA and AESA.

But there is a problem of cost: GaN T/R modules cost a lot because there is not civilian application needed this technology, so there is not a mass production.

We plane to induct SPECTRA antenna first because the antenna are small and hence the cost will be lower. We hope that more and more military and spatial applications will reduce the cost, for us been able to introduce GaN on Radar too.

 

[W@rwolf]

At least one of them is 100% guaranteed.

Parrikar plans to have 1 twin and 1 single engine fighter made in India. This is apart from Rafale. Just google it, it's all over the place.

If we are not buying Gripen then we are buying F-16. That's the choice for a single engine fighter, Gripen or F-16. Out of those, I support Gripen for obvious reasons. And I know that India has signed some sort of agreement with Saab in Singapore.

In the first quote you said from ASH, F-16 and Gripen, one is guaranteed. You also said that MP talked about the two new production line to be set up in India.Yet you fail to consider both Rafales or LCA Mk-2 as MP's choice for the same.

Dude, you aren't understanding. Mk2 program will continue, but IAF isn't buying any.

Yes, he's confirmed that. You won't get it in a newspaper quote. He's confirmed that any LCAs to be bought will no longer be divided into Mk1 Mk2 etc. IAF will buy the Tejas. And that jet will be upgraded as and when new tech is available.

Again you assume that IAF will not go for more Tejas over the current order without any substance to it. Then you say they'll be upgraded once new tech is available.

Do you know one of the main problem faced by Mk-1 is shortage of space even for basic sub systems like SPJ? And yet you magically find more space in the airframe to integrate even more tech in the future without any change in the airframe! Im not able to understand your logic.

Can you say where I said that? Don't talk when you don't know how the Rafale program is proceeding. I have been following it for years now.

GaN for radar is 5 years away. It's targeted for service entry after 2021.

Follow this thread. I hope information is there.
https://defence.pk/threads/the-rafale-hidden-beauties-and-its-future.422896/

Here's where you made that statement.
"GaN is simply superior hardware. Selex and Thales won't keep up with Saab's new radar without GaN"

Even Picdel doesn't know. The data came from a French pilot.

GaN is there, but it's part of the conformal array program that will come after 2021. Right now, GaN is only for Spectra.

Yes, I may have been wrong on the date for induction of GaN modules on RBE2 array.

Oh, God! No. Stop responding to my posts. It's clear you are just babbling now. The designer of the LSA is on another forum where we discuss these things. His jet has nothing to do with LCA. He is not affiliated with ADA or DRDO or HAL. In fact, he won't even touch HAL with a barge pole.

He plans to have the Israelis make the cockpit initially and have the jet made and assembled by the IAF at their BRDs.

The LSA (just an abbreviation for stealth aircraft in light category) i was referring to was not based on whatever the other chap was referring to in whichever forum it was. There is a proposal inside ADA for a Tejas spin-off in the 5th gen format. I was referring to that.

Gripen will be far more advanced than the Mk2. Its cost will reflect that. Gripen's IOC is in 2021 while Mk2's IOC is in 2023. AMCA is expected to get its IOC in 2024. You get it now?

Do you see why Mk2 is impossible for the IAF? AMCA is a very very high priority project. It has only a 5-6 year TD to serial production stage, unlike LCA which has taken 15 years.

After 2027 IAF will only be inducting FGFA and AMCA.

Advance in sensor fusion, Yes. But every other parameter would be more or less equal or atleast comparable. (Maybe except radar unless the Israelis come up with GaN)
I've already agreed that Mk-2, when they come, will be late. You cannot compare LCA's and AMCA's developmental timeframe. Both are different and there were a lot of factors responsible for the late induction of Tejas which is not present in the case of AMCA.
Mk-2 will be late, but the IAF will get some breathing room with the induction of Mk-1As.

 

[C130]

I think you are talking about the Super Hornet Block 2 being purchased by the USN, and not ASH. And fly away price won't count for much because your price for the SH is half of what Brazil is paying for the Gripens.

In fact the Rafale is cheaper than the price you've quoted for the SH. If you consider a 18-18 split between Rafale single and twin seat for the IAF, then the total cost will come up to $2.4B, that's cheaper than the SH. And the Rafale comes with all the modern goodies, Spectra, FSO, sensor fusion.

ASH will be about $70 million each, including weapons,training, service, more like $120 million each=$4.3 billion

Rafale is about $120 million flyaway cost+french weapons,training, service, more like $250 million each=$9 billion

ASH is half the cost of Rafale

ASH is modern, albeit it doesn't have SPECTRA

one of the lowest RCS for a non stealth fighter
enclosed weapons pod
built in IRST
conformal fuel tanks (adds 130 nautical mile range or 30 minutes longer on station)
enhanced engines (which can be used on the blk 2 Tejas)
ALQ-214 jammer
huuuge single MFD

a lot of upside.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale is about $120 million flyaway cost+french weapons,training, service, more like $250 million each=$9 billion

I already said you (with official link) that Rafale flyaway price is around $ 73 millions (note: price is cost + margin) so it's not a $ 120 million flyaway cost!

 

[randomradio]

In the first quote you said from ASH, F-16 and Gripen, one is guaranteed. You also said that MP talked about the two new production line to be set up in India.Yet you fail to consider both Rafales or LCA Mk-2 as MP's choice for the same.

Rafale is over. Parrikar has said on quote that he plans to buy one more twin engine and single engine aircraft. This is purely for imports, so LCA is not counted.

The reason I think Gripen is a shoo-in is because Parrikar had recently said in the Parliament that India won't be buying the F-16.

Again you assume that IAF will not go for more Tejas over the current order without any substance to it. Then you say they'll be upgraded once new tech is available.

You are confusing going for more Tejas with Mk2. I never said IAF won't go for more Mk1A.

Do you know one of the main problem faced by Mk-1 is shortage of space even for basic sub systems like SPJ? And yet you magically find more space in the airframe to integrate even more tech in the future without any change in the airframe! Im not able to understand your logic.

IAF doesn't want an internal jammer anymore.

Here's where you made that statement.
"GaN is simply superior hardware. Selex and Thales won't keep up with Saab's new radar without GaN"

Yes. And when have I said anything for you to say "But to say Thales and Selex don't have a GaN program of their own...."

Selex and Thales don't have a GaN radar. Saab has. End of story. Having GaN modules and having a GaN radar are two very different things.

This post will confirm what I have been saying.
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-261#post-8413767

Yes, I may have been wrong on the date for induction of GaN modules on RBE2 array.

There, you admit it. The radar will be a brand new system, a further evolution, but very different hardware. Thales plans to remove the radar from the nose and put it other parts of the fuselage and maybe wings.

The LSA (just an abbreviation for stealth aircraft in light category) i was referring to was not based on whatever the other chap was referring to in whichever forum it was. There is a proposal inside ADA for a Tejas spin-off in the 5th gen format. I was referring to that.

There is no '5th gen' Tejas if you are referring to a supercruise aircraft with internal bays.

Advance in sensor fusion, Yes. But every other parameter would be more or less equal or atleast comparable. (Maybe except radar unless the Israelis come up with GaN)
I've already agreed that Mk-2, when they come, will be late. You cannot compare LCA's and AMCA's developmental timeframe. Both are different and there were a lot of factors responsible for the late induction of Tejas which is not present in the case of AMCA.
Mk-2 will be late, but the IAF will get some breathing room with the induction of Mk-1As.

Bro, the Mk2 has no chance in the IAF because they want the AMCA next, after the Mk1A. There is a chance that they may order up to 2 more squadrons of Mk1A. The current plan is to make 8 squadrons in 8 years. The IAF has reduced some goals for the LCA. They have decided to induct the Mk1A with an external pod jammer. With the right radar, and a bit of extra investment, it will be possible to add EA capability to the radar also.

Basically, there's not much wrong with the Mk1A except weight. The better the weight reduction goals, the better the aircraft's range and payload.

Once the minimum number of LCA Mk1A are made, the production line will switch to the navy's N-LCAs. And that will add 3 years to the current schedule of 8 years for the Mk1A, that takes it to a grand total of 11 years of production. Which means production will end in 2027, without considering delays, for the armed forces. AMCA will take over, probably with two production lines, one by HAL and another by a private company, while LCA's line will switch to export markets.

Mk2 will form the basis for the N-LCA Mk2 simply because the navy needs the extra thrust for carrier ops. And the AF Mk2 itself will be exported to other countries.

ASH will be about $70 million each

The Rafale-C F3+ costs $63M. The IAF version of Rafale is expected to cost about $80-90M, closer to 80. Parrikar was saying he wants to bring the flyaway cost to 75M euros, that's $83M today.

And if you go by this source:-
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...g-disputes-denmarks-f-35-evaluation/84613000/

According to the fiscal 2017 budget request, an Air Force F-35A costs about $99 million in FY17, and about $101.5 million in FY18. The same budget documents show the Super Hornet costs $77.8 million in FY17, and $78 million in FY18.

The standard SH alone costs $77.8M for the USN. The ASH with a new wing and extra avionics will obviously cost way more.

I suppose we will know about the costs when Canada buys a couple of SHs.

 

[C130]

I already said you (with official link) that Rafale flyaway price is around $ 73 millions (note: price is cost + margin) so it's not a $ 120 million flyaway cost!

$73 million flyaway cost really

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

$73 million flyaway cost really

No....$73 million flyaway price

 

[GURU DUTT]

Rafale is over. Parrikar has said on quote that he plans to buy one more twin engine and single engine aircraft. This is purely for imports, so LCA is not counted.

The reason I think Gripen is a shoo-in is because Parrikar had recently said in the Parliament that India won't be buying the F-16.



You are confusing going for more Tejas with Mk2. I never said IAF won't go for more Mk1A.



IAF doesn't want an internal jammer anymore.



Yes. And when have I said anything for you to say "But to say Thales and Selex don't have a GaN program of their own...."

Selex and Thales don't have a GaN radar. Saab has. End of story. Having GaN modules and having a GaN radar are two very different things.

This post will confirm what I have been saying.
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-261#post-8413767



There, you admit it. The radar will be a brand new system, a further evolution, but very different hardware. Thales plans to remove the radar from the nose and put it other parts of the fuselage and maybe wings.



There is no '5th gen' Tejas if you are referring to a supercruise aircraft with internal bays.



Bro, the Mk2 has no chance in the IAF because they want the AMCA next, after the Mk1A. There is a chance that they may order up to 2 more squadrons of Mk1A. The current plan is to make 8 squadrons in 8 years. The IAF has reduced some goals for the LCA. They have decided to induct the Mk1A with an external pod jammer. With the right radar, and a bit of extra investment, it will be possible to add EA capability to the radar also.

Basically, there's not much wrong with the Mk1A except weight. The better the weight reduction goals, the better the aircraft's range and payload.

Once the minimum number of LCA Mk1A are made, the production line will switch to the navy's N-LCAs. And that will add 3 years to the current schedule of 8 years for the Mk1A, that takes it to a grand total of 11 years of production. Which means production will end in 2027, without considering delays, for the armed forces. AMCA will take over, probably with two production lines, one by HAL and another by a private company, while LCA's line will switch to export markets.

Mk2 will form the basis for the N-LCA Mk2 simply because the navy needs the extra thrust for carrier ops. And the AF Mk2 itself will be exported to other countries.



The Rafale-C F3+ costs $63M. The IAF version of Rafale is expected to cost about $80-90M, closer to 80. Parrikar was saying he wants to bring the flyaway cost to 75M euros, that's $83M today.

And if you go by this source:-
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...g-disputes-denmarks-f-35-evaluation/84613000/


The standard SH alone costs $77.8M for the USN. The ASH with a new wing and extra avionics will obviously cost way more.

I suppose we will know about the costs when Canada buys a couple of SHs.

off all things you have said there are few points even i have knowledge and they are

1.IAF will only get some 20 trainer version of LCA and around 100-120 MK1A while 10 trainer version of NLCA and some 40 regular NLCA

2.there wont me MK2 version of LCA rather MP has put all his wieght behind fast tracking AMCA

3.there will be 36+90(under MII) rafales and 36 Rafale M for IN

4.there is strong possibility of 90 Ex USAF fighters which can be either upgraded (with maybe Israeli EL2052)and refurbished to F16V or F/A18 EF nothing more than that

5.there wont be any grippen variant either for IAF or IN

ASH will be about $70 million each, including weapons,training, service, more like $120 million each=$4.3 billion

Rafale is about $120 million flyaway cost+french weapons,training, service, more like $250 million each=$9 billion

ASH is half the cost of Rafale

ASH is modern, albeit it doesn't have SPECTRA

one of the lowest RCS for a non stealth fighter
enclosed weapons pod
built in IRST
conformal fuel tanks (adds 130 nautical mile range or 30 minutes longer on station)
enhanced engines (which can be used on the blk 2 Tejas)
ALQ-214 jammer
huuuge single MFD

a lot of upside.

well not sure weather USA will give ASH to india but if it does really it wont be 120 million each, including weapons,training, service its more like 150 million which is 5.4millon but it does make more sense than F16V which most will be EX-USAF F16 C/D s with deep MLU to F16V level which is around 120 million each, including weapons,training, service

 

[Taygibay]

Why do you people contribute to a discussion with some one so ill-informed?

Selex and Thales don't have a GaN radar. Saab has. End of story. Having GaN modules and having a GaN radar are two very different things.

09 juli 2012
The Gripen NG test aircraft is now flying with a SELEX Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar installed, following extensiv testing with an earlier AESA prototype.

Raven ES-05 is a high performance Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fire control radar designed for the Saab Gripen NG multi role fighter that builds on over 60 years of SELEX Galileo’s fire control radar experience. It has been designed in close collaboration with Saab and is a vital part of the Gripen next generation multi functional sensor system.
http://saabgroup.com/sv/media/news-press/news/2012-07/gripen-ng-flying-with-raven-es-05-aesa-radar/

The rest is of the same caliber and I'm passing on numerous calls of -"You don't understand."
when proven in error, claims that he alone gets it and speaking for others or in derogatory ways.

Much ado about nothing.
Just remember this :

Bro, I am not giving my opinion. I am telling what's happening in South Block.

It is most likely that India and Sweden have signed an agreement for production of Gripens in Singapore on June 3rd. We don't know how serious the agreement is.

Not an opinion, knows reality ... or just a kid full ( more like overflowing ) of himself?



Gripen along with the F-18 have lost the MMRCA; neither would do.

Here's an alternative to what Parrikar is preparing that works in the real world :

“We also envisage acquiring single-engined and twin-engined fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ programme,” he says. “Final discussions are likely to be concluded in a couple of months to decide the exact course of action, though more or less the line is decided.”

One line of Tejas Mk1A for HAL + one line of Tejas Mk1+/ Mk2 run by a private Indian firm.
One line of Rafale under MII for post-36 follow-through orders.

IAF gets a 3-tier format as soon as the older birds retire.

FGFA / AMCA can take proper time to reach fruition.

By the way, MP likely means a line of action is drawn in his end quote, not a production one ...


Don't get drawn in by antics or lured by soliloquies, Tay.

 

[W@rwolf]

Rafale is over. Parrikar has said on quote that he plans to buy one more twin engine and single engine aircraft. This is purely for imports, so LCA is not counted.

The reason I think Gripen is a shoo-in is because Parrikar had recently said in the Parliament that India won't be buying the F-16.

3.there will be 36+90(under MII) rafales and 36 Rafale M for IN

4.there is strong possibility of 90 Ex USAF fighters which can be either upgraded (with maybe Israeli EL2052)and refurbished to F16V or F/A18 EF nothing more than that

5.there wont be any grippen variant either for IAF or IN

Yes, more Rafales are coming apart from from the 36 being currently negotiated. The second production line for twin engined fighter that MP has hinted is the 90+36 Rafales to be MII by a private prod line (which can take over AMCA production once Rafale orders are finished).

Im still not convinced that Gripens or Falcons are coming to IAF stables. I've already given my POV in the Gripen issue. As for F-16, i think the combo of ITAR and the fact that PAF operates them will make IAF think twice before allowing them to be bought.

Also, SH if bought will come under IAF MMRCA requirements, but the fact that they've already been rejected during trials is the deciding factor. (although the ASH might be close to Rafale, i think IAF is better off with more Rafale which are better, and also since they'd be adding another type without any benefits)

IAF doesn't want an internal jammer anymore.

And waste a hardpoint in an already payload constrained jet? I don't think so.

There, you admit it. The radar will be a brand new system, a further evolution, but very different hardware. Thales plans to remove the radar from the nose and put it other parts of the fuselage and maybe wings.

The 'smart skin' will augment the radar, not replace it.

There is no '5th gen' Tejas if you are referring to a supercruise aircraft with internal bays.

I know there's nothing official being discussed. But i think its the best way to continue LCA's legacy. IAF will need more light fighters in the future and this will fit the bill perfectly.

Bro, the Mk2 has no chance in the IAF because they want the AMCA next, after the Mk1A. There is a chance that they may order up to 2 more squadrons of Mk1A. The current plan is to make 8 squadrons in 8 years. The IAF has reduced some goals for the LCA. They have decided to induct the Mk1A with an external pod jammer. With the right radar, and a bit of extra investment, it will be possible to add EA capability to the radar also.

Basically, there's not much wrong with the Mk1A except weight. The better the weight reduction goals, the better the aircraft's range and payload.

Once the minimum number of LCA Mk1A are made, the production line will switch to the navy's N-LCAs. And that will add 3 years to the current schedule of 8 years for the Mk1A, that takes it to a grand total of 11 years of production. Which means production will end in 2027, without considering delays, for the armed forces. AMCA will take over, probably with two production lines, one by HAL and another by a private company, while LCA's line will switch to export markets.

Mk2 will form the basis for the N-LCA Mk2 simply because the navy needs the extra thrust for carrier ops. And the AF Mk2 itself will be exported to other countries.

2.there wont me MK2 version of LCA rather MP has put all his wieght behind fast tracking AMCA

I really hope MK-2 is not cancelled for IAF. The Mk-1A will not fill the shoes of IAF's GSQR (which was pretty audacious to start with) but giving up so close when Mk-2 will be the answer seems foolish!
Also going for more Mk-1A instead of Mk-2 is not going to work well as the airframe will already be at the limits of upgradation. It will need to undergo massive redesigning to keep up in the coming decades, which is why Mk-2 is still relevant.

I understand the relevance of AMCA's faster induction. But IAF's light fighter shortfall will not fill by itself and needs more Tejas.

One line of Tejas Mk1A for HAL + one line of Tejas Mk1+/ Mk2 run by a private Indian firm.
One line of Rafale under MII for post-36 follow-through orders.

IAF gets a 3-tier format as soon as the older birds retire.

FGFA / AMCA can take proper time to reach fruition.

By the way, MP likely means a line of action is drawn in his end quote, not a production one ...


Don't get drawn in by antics or lured by soliloquies, Tay.

Of all the words he could have used, he went for 'line' !!
Either it was a deliberate attempt to confound us, or maybe he actually was referring to the production lines.

 

[Taygibay]

Of all the words he could have used, he went for 'line' !!
Either it was a deliberate attempt to confound us, or maybe he actually was referring to the production lines.

Yeah, I know, that's why I brought it up but remember that line as in course of action
is now a pervasive term found in finances and marketing and not solely in mil & politics.
It is not kept for logic as in line of thought as much as it used to however which is sad ...

Might still be a lapsus confundi, Tay.

 

[zebra7]

No....$73 million flyaway price

May be he is offering YF-17 with weapons

Anyone know where do Tejas and F-16 stand on the graph posted by @randomradio ?

Take it with the pinch of salt, and forget it.

Guaranteed? On whose authority?

Parrikar.

It took me for a while, why @randomradio is hell bend for Gripen, and B.S theory. I got the source, and duly posted his contribution here.

https://defence.pk/threads/hal-tejas-updates-news-discussions-thread-2.351401/page-106#post-8415071

 

[randomradio]

Why do you people contribute to a discussion with some one so ill-informed?



09 juli 2012
The Gripen NG test aircraft is now flying with a SELEX Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar installed, following extensiv testing with an earlier AESA prototype.

Raven ES-05 is a high performance Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fire control radar designed for the Saab Gripen NG multi role fighter that builds on over 60 years of SELEX Galileo’s fire control radar experience. It has been designed in close collaboration with Saab and is a vital part of the Gripen next generation multi functional sensor system.
http://saabgroup.com/sv/media/news-press/news/2012-07/gripen-ng-flying-with-raven-es-05-aesa-radar/

The rest is of the same caliber and I'm passing on numerous calls of -"You don't understand."
when proven in error, claims that he alone gets it and speaking for others or in derogatory ways.

Much ado about nothing.
Just remember this :

Not an opinion, knows reality ... or just a kid full ( more like overflowing ) of himself?



Gripen along with the F-18 have lost the MMRCA; neither would do.

Here's an alternative to what Parrikar is preparing that works in the real world :


One line of Tejas Mk1A for HAL + one line of Tejas Mk1+/ Mk2 run by a private Indian firm.
One line of Rafale under MII for post-36 follow-through orders.

IAF gets a 3-tier format as soon as the older birds retire.

FGFA / AMCA can take proper time to reach fruition.

By the way, MP likely means a line of action is drawn in his end quote, not a production one ...


Don't get drawn in by antics or lured by soliloquies, Tay.

Selex do not have a GaN radar.

As for Saab-
http://www.stratpost.com/saab-adds-gan-aesa-co-dev-to-make-india-gripen-pitch

This development is different from the SELEX Galileo Raven ES-05 AESA radar developed for the Gripen. But Sweden is clear that the offer to share GaN AESA radar technology would be only be on offer if India were to agree to to produce the Gripen in India for the IAF.

Oops, I'm so uninformed that people think I'm talking about Selex.

One line of Tejas Mk1A for HAL + one line of Tejas Mk1+/ Mk2 run by a private Indian firm.

He is not talking about Tejas genius. Tejas's production lines have already been built.

What may happen:
Rafale MII
Gripen MII

What I hope will happen
Rafale MII
LSA MII

When he says one or two jets are to be made, he is talking about importing, Tejas is unrelated.

And waste a hardpoint in an already payload constrained jet? I don't think so.

You may not think so, but you are wrong. A hardpoint won't be wasted because one of them will carry twin arms for a missile and the pod.

The 'smart skin' will augment the radar, not replace it.

Tell that to Thales. They said it, not me.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Selex do not have a GaN radar.

As for Saab-
http://www.stratpost.com/saab-adds-gan-aesa-co-dev-to-make-india-gripen-pitch


Oops, I'm so uninformed that people think I'm talking about Selex.



He is not talking about Tejas genius. Tejas's production lines have already been built.

What may happen:
Rafale MII
Gripen MII

What I hope will happen
Rafale MII
LSA MII

When he says one or two jets are to be made, he is talking about importing, Tejas is unrelated.



You may not think so, but you are wrong. A hardpoint won't be wasted because one of them will carry twin arms for a missile and the pod.



Tell that to Thales. They said it, not me.

what is LSA ?