Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

Generation is just the marketing terms. And with the Block 60 upgrade, and a working AESA radar in F-16, care to explain how it is a generation ahead in Avionics. Second is the LCC, F-16 is never lagging in this domain also

Sensor fusion. What defines a 5th gen aircraft is sensor fusion. Without it you can't have electronic stealth, like Rafale does. Even the F-35 has limited stealth from electronics.

Let me clear one thing -- Make in India, means India, wants various global OEMs to setup plants in India, and take the advantage of pool of highly skilled engineer and technitians available in the country, and relatively cheaper labour cost, to lower down the production cost. This just not automatically makes that India would be the customer of the product and very much possible that, Make in India Gripen would be bought by Swedish Airforce.

No, for MII to be successful, the IAF has to purchase some. Right now, the numbers are at 90 jets. That's the minimum required by the IAF to buy and sustain an aircraft.

Exports will come later.

Do you ever have enough strong company to cope in such high technology?

Yes.

With a good deal from the first two, you will have largely enough ToT to boost your aerospace industry. From that point of view Gripen E seemed a nice second choice.

Out of all three jets, only Gripen E has sensor fusion.

1. The LCA program is already successful. The govt is not going to stop at the 120+ plus figure, its a fact. The question is whether the govt will go for more Mk-1As or order the MK-2 (it depends on HAL to complete the later's development)
At the most we can see is SAAB co-operating with HAL for Mk-1A and MK-2 development.
Gripen is not coming to India for two reasons:

a) Will never be procured under IAFs medium fighter requirement as it has failed the GSQR
b) Under light fighter requirement, Gripen doesnt bring anything significant to the table that the Tejas Mk-2 cannot offer.​

Also it will take the 3-5 years for the first fighter to be delivered. By that time the Mk-1A production would have started.

2. Ofcourse the HAL would not want to give up its monopoly. But it doesn't have the final say in the matter, its the government's decision. And the current trend shows us that the govt is willing to team up with private players for faster production and induction of platforms.
Also the pvt players wont incur losses by setting up parallel production to HAL's main line since IAF will have orders for different aircrafts stretching on for atleast the next 2 decades and they can start with the next aircraft once the previous one is completed. (Mk-2, Rafale's MII prod line, AMCA, FGFA and I can also see a 5th gen spin off from LCA). HAL will have its handfull with Mk-1A, Mk-2, AMCA, FGFA along with BTT-40, IJT, Dhruv, Rudra, LCH and the LUH-Ka-226 combo.
So HAL is never loosing out on revenue.

You underestimate HAL. They have bureaucrats in their pockets. You can at least count out all HAL projects for the private sector, that's not happening beyond subcontracting related work. Either 16 LCAs will be made a year, or 24. No private company will get its hands on the LCA because none of them have any experience to handle the project alone.

Gripen is going to cooperate with ADA on LCA.

b) Under light fighter requirement, Gripen doesnt bring anything significant to the table that the Tejas Mk-2 cannot offer.

That's not entirely correct. First, we do not know how good the Mk2 is. Second, there is no aircraft in the world today that's more maneuverable at subsonic speeds than the Gripen. And Saab is offering its new GaN radar to the IAF with Gripen E. And Mk2 is too far away, 2024+.

After 2027, IAF won't be inducting any of these aircraft. At best only IN will be inducting Mk2, if they are still interested by then.

Anyway, Parrikar has already made the decision of manufacturing a second twin engine jet and a single engine fighter. The only twin engine jet around is the SH. And there are two options for single engine, Gripen E and F-16IN. So the Gripen E is obviously the better choice of the two. Gripen E is a new generation jet.

forget it grippen just has the biggest marketing budget than any other OEM in indian defnce market and SAAB dont have any ground breaking tech with them what either LM or Boeing or GE or BAE cant give us

plus the fact we need at least two new MRCA to complement LCA one is rafale for sure (126 for IAF and 36 for IN)the other one is for sure a american fighter and since both LM & Boeing wanted to go alone in indian defence market under MII it could either be F16V or F/A-18 E/F but grippen forget it

We could end up with a third MRCA program, that's not been counted out. I had brought up the 3rd line months ago, I think March or April.

Rafale, SH and Gripen may be manufactured in India.

 

[GURU DUTT]

We could end up with a third MRCA program, that's not been counted out. I had brought up the 3rd line months ago, I think March or April.

Rafale, SH and Gripen may be manufactured in India.

Rafale for sure and SH maybe but just forget Grippen

 

[[Bregs]]

arey bhaiya complete rafale deal first that too made in france, make in india baad main dekh lena

 

[randomradio]

Rafale for sure and SH maybe but just forget Grippen

Bro, I am not giving my opinion. I am telling what's happening in South Block.

It is most likely that India and Sweden have signed an agreement for production of Gripens in Singapore on June 3rd. We don't know how serious the agreement is.

 

[W@rwolf]

You underestimate HAL. They have bureaucrats in their pockets. You can at least count out all HAL projects for the private sector, that's not happening beyond subcontracting related work. Either 16 LCAs will be made a year, or 24. No private company will get its hands on the LCA because none of them have any experience to handle the project alone.

Gripen is going to cooperate with ADA on LCA.

That's not entirely correct. First, we do not know how good the Mk2 is. Second, there is no aircraft in the world today that's more maneuverable at subsonic speeds than the Gripen. And Saab is offering its new GaN radar to the IAF with Gripen E. And Mk2 is too far away, 2024+.

After 2027, IAF won't be inducting any of these aircraft. At best only IN will be inducting Mk2, if they are still interested by then.

Anyway, Parrikar has already made the decision of manufacturing a second twin engine jet and a single engine fighter. The only twin engine jet around is the SH. And there are two options for single engine, Gripen E and F-16IN. So the Gripen E is obviously the better choice of the two. Gripen E is a new generation jet.

True, they're going to fight tooth and nail to retain their monopoly. I sincerely hope DM takes a strong decision to involve pvt playes in a major way in the Tejas program starting with major structure assembly and gradually to complete airframe assembly by the time Mk-2 is ready for series production. MoD should make sure HAL co-operates.

The second twin-engined fighter is none other than Rafale. As indicated by Dassaul CEO Trappier himself.
“At the moment we are negotiating the price for the first 36……we are already preparing the second phase of the contract, that is an additional order of some 90 aircraft but that is in the long term.”
This deal involve MII, complete ToT as well as collaboration in some strategic projects.
HAL is sure as hell not getting this production line. So again onus falls on the pvt players.

SH, F-16V or Gripen are not coming. Period.
Words of DM himself indicate that he has already finalized the 'single engined fighter' to be produced here.
“We also envisage acquiring single-engined and twin-engined fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ programme,” he says. “Final discussions are likely to be concluded in a couple of months to decide the exact course of action, though more or less the line is decided.”
(same Flight Global article)

Then, if that fighter was indeed Gripen, why are they lobbying so hard? Boeing has quietly given up its offer while LM still thinks it has a chance with the F-16/F-35.

As for Mk-2, it has everything what IAF wants. There's no question of how 'good' it'll be. IAF is already impressed with the performance of Mk-1. Only thing to worry about is the timeline. Im sure it'll match Gripen in terms or maneuverabilty in Mk-2 avatar (albeit not in low speeds) but its the last line of defense, so not that much of a concern. Also, I think the Rafale can match or ever better Gripen at low speed turns.

We're already getting GaN tech with Rafale, why go for a whole new jet just for something we're already getting? Also Selex comes under Finameccanicca and can open another can of worms for MoD. Not to mention the hazzle of negotiating with each sub-contractor involved with Gripen (SAAB is only the integrator of those sub-systems)

 

[randomradio]

True, they're going to fight tooth and nail to retain their monopoly. I sincerely hope DM takes a strong decision to involve pvt playes in a major way in the Tejas program starting with major structure assembly and gradually to complete airframe assembly by the time Mk-2 is ready for series production. MoD should make sure HAL co-operates.

The govt wants to privatize HAL.

SH, F-16V or Gripen are not coming. Period.

Words of DM himself indicate that he has already finalized the 'single engined fighter' to be produced here.
“We also envisage acquiring single-engined and twin-engined fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ programme,” he says. “Final discussions are likely to be concluded in a couple of months to decide the exact course of action, though more or less the line is decided.”
(same Flight Global article)

At least one of them is 100% guaranteed.

Then, if that fighter was indeed Gripen, why are they lobbying so hard? Boeing has quietly given up its offer while LM still thinks it has a chance with the F-16/F-35.

They need to keep lobbying because nothing is a done deal. In fact everything depends on the costs and ToT.

As for Mk-2, it has everything what IAF wants.

The issue is it is possible that AMCA will be made around the same time as the Mk2. ADA is willing to finish development, but it seems an accelerated development of AMCA will kill LCA Mk2.

TDs should take off in 2019 and 2020. First prototype in 2021 and at least 4 would be flying by 2023. So AMCA should hit production by 2027. So the IAF and IN may decide to invest in the AMCA by then.

Im sure it'll match Gripen in terms or maneuverabilty

No chance.

LCA is between the F-16 and Su-35.

Also, I think the Rafale can match or ever better Gripen at low speed turns.

Only with TVC.

We're already getting GaN tech with Rafale,

We are not. GaN is coming in only for Spectra, not for the radar. The GaN program for the Rafale is post 2021. And it's unclear if we are going to get that in our production versions. Maybe as options in the future.

Also Selex comes under Finameccanicca and can open another can of worms for MoD.

Saab has its own electronics company. They are offering a Saab designed and made GaN radar. THey can offer IRST and all other electronics as well. Plus, they will all be similar to what's going on LCA Mk2 and N-LCA.

As of today, IAF has confirmed that they won't be buying the Mk2. They will go for new upgrades on Mk1A itself.

Not to mention the hazzle of negotiating with each sub-contractor involved with Gripen (SAAB is only the integrator of those sub-systems)

The subcontractors will be Indian, not Swedish.

 

[zebra7]

Speculation Speculation and Speculation, so let me do some speculation too.

Sensor fusion. What defines a 5th gen aircraft is sensor fusion. Without it you can't have electronic stealth, like Rafale does. Even the F-35 has limited stealth from electronics.

LOLZ -- A fighter plane needed to replace the ageing Mig -21 and Mig-27, and IAF looking for the high end fighter plane with Sensor fusion, with Imported and costly Weaponary like Meteros, IRIS-T for the role of Interceptor, and tactical close are support. A case study -- and USAF are idiots to keep flying Old F-16 A/B, when they should have inducted 1000 F-22 Raptor. The IAF don't need low end fighter plane to fill the numbers. What is the cost of the F-16 block 52 for the PAF -- 85 Million, and for Gripen 75 Million, speculated by you. Now add the Infrastructure, and the cost of the Weapons, or the cost charged by OEM to integrate our Russian Weapon inventory.

No, for MII to be successful, the IAF has to purchase some. Right now, the numbers are at 90 jets. That's the minimum required by the IAF to buy and sustain an aircraft.

And the 90 number of jet is the product of the Speculation, or it has any name.

Exports will come later.

So, you want India to market the product, or the OEM will market themself, and India would only be the production, spares and MRO facility destination.

It is most likely that India and Sweden have signed an agreement for production of Gripens in Singapore on June 3rd. We don't know how serious the agreement is.

And this thought is most likely to be the Speculation of you or some source.

Saab has its own electronics company. They are offering a Saab designed and made GaN radar. THey can offer IRST and all other electronics as well. Plus, they will all be similar to what's going on LCA Mk2 and N-LCA.

Speculation no. XX

Right now we have an AESA radar EL/M-2052 readily available for Jaguar, Mk-1 and Naval MK-2, and the Super Duper GaN Radar of SAAB's prototype will be ready only after 5 years. There is no IRST solution offered by SAAB, they themself going for the Skyward IRST.

As of today, IAF has confirmed that they won't be buying the Mk2. They will go for new upgrades on Mk1A itself.

Provide me the source, or any statement that IAF is not interested in LCA MK-2. The IAF chief statement was that right now they are only looking at MK-1. And there is no MK-1A Bullshit again a speculated nomeclature by one media person, and rest repeating them, its only MK-1, and IAF had made it clear, and specially you should made it clear that its only MK-1, and IAF would keep on inducting whatever upgrades it will get in the process and leave the nomenclature to IAF.

No chance.

LCA is between the F-16 and Su-35.

LOLZ -- What a great and Impressive chart.

Pls post also the source who have created this chart -- let me guess is it chart from the Gripen marketing broucher.

But what is not mentioned here is the Instantaneous turn rate and the sustained turn rate at what load, altitude, and speed, temperature, Air density. OOPS so many parameter. No OEM gives its flight data in public domain, but the person was able to Plot the graph of so many fighter planes, and that too in same condition.

The issue is it is possible that AMCA will be made around the same time as the Mk2. ADA is willing to finish development, but it seems an accelerated development of AMCA will kill LCA Mk2.

TDs should take off in 2019 and 2020. First prototype in 2021 and at least 4 would be flying by 2023. So AMCA should hit production by 2027. So the IAF and IN may decide to invest in the AMCA by then.

B.S Speculation. For any 5th Generation fighter plane development, the cost of the development, would easily cross the two digit figures in Billions and atleast 15 years. With Rafale, MKI deep upgradation, and FGFA projects, there would be no money left to be poured on AMCA at the moment, and India should and will concentrate on the Rafale, and Super Sukhoi Upgrade. The FGFA prototype could only be ready by 2020, and would be ready by 2026-27.

Right now, only feasibility and tecnical study is going on AMCA and should only be ready by 2035. And for MK-2 both IAF and IN development have been started, and decision is to be made, whether to go for the TVC or the Canard solution for the Supermaneurability, and most probably ADA will go for TVC solution.

The technologies required for the AMCA would be developed on MK-2, and this is the right way, because Development is the evolutionaly Process and not the Revolutionary Event.

At least one of them is 100% guaranteed.

Neither F-16V nor Gripen would enter Indian Service (So called Speculated 90 number Minimum), as both have been rejected by IAF for good because IAF is too Difficult Customer for both of them.

The govt wants to privatize HAL.

Speculation number XXX. Give your source or statement.

 

[randomradio]

LOLZ -- A fighter plane needed to replace the ageing Mig -21 and Mig-27, and IAF looking for the high end fighter plane with Sensor fusion, with Imported and costly Weaponary like Meteros, IRIS-T for the role of Interceptor, and tactical close are support. A case study -- and USAF are idiots to keep flying Old F-16 A/B, when they should have inducted 1000 F-22 Raptor. The IAF don't need low end fighter plane to fill the numbers. What is the cost of the F-16 block 52 for the PAF -- 85 Million, and for Gripen 75 Million, speculated by you. Now add the Infrastructure, and the cost of the Weapons, or the cost charged by OEM to integrate our Russian Weapon inventory.

The USAF will buy 1000 F-22s if allowed, it's not their decision to make.

And the 90 number of jet is the product of the Speculation, or it has any name.

It's a real number. All MII programs will be for 90 jets initially.

the OEM will market themself, and India would only be the production, spares and MRO facility destination.

Yes.

And this thought is most likely to be the Speculation of you or some source.

It's not speculation. Some sort of agreement was signed with Sweden at the Shangri La Dialogue.

Speculation no. XX

Public knowledge. Google: GaN radar Saab. They have a company called Saab Microwave Systems which is developing the radar.

Right now we have an AESA radar EL/M-2052 readily available for Jaguar, Mk-1 and Naval MK-2, and the Super Duper GaN Radar of SAAB's prototype will be ready only after 5 years. There is no IRST solution offered by SAAB, they themself going for the Skyward IRST.

Saab says the radar's ready.

Provide me the source, or any statement that IAF is not interested in LCA MK-2. The IAF chief statement was that right now they are only looking at MK-1. And there is no MK-1A Bullshit again a speculated nomeclature by one media person, and rest repeating them, its only MK-1, and IAF had made it clear, and specially you should made it clear that its only MK-1, and IAF would keep on inducting whatever upgrades it will get in the process and leave the nomenclature to IAF.

The IAF chief also clarified that IAF doesn't want the Mk2.

http://www.stratpost.com/navy-to-review-lca

And when Ajay Banerjee of The Tribune asked: So you are not interested in the Mk2, is it?

AS OF NOW WE ARE NOT.

It wasn't cryptic. As of now, only the navy is interested in Mk2.

What a great and Impressive chart.

Pls post also the source who have created this chart -- let me guess is it chart from the Gripen marketing broucher.

It came from a submission to the Australian Parliament. Except for the F-22 and maybe the F-35, the turn rates for all other jets are pretty much accurate.

But what is not mentioned here is the Instantaneous turn rate and the sustained turn rate at what load, altitude, and speed, temperature, Air density. OOPS so many parameter. No OEM gives its flight data in public domain, but the person was able to Plot the graph of so many fighter planes, and that too in same condition.

It's the highest possible turn rates achieved on the jets.

B.S Speculation. For any 5th Generation fighter plane development, the cost of the development, would easily cross the two digit figures in Billions and atleast 15 years. With Rafale, MKI deep upgradation, and FGFA projects, there would be no money left to be poured on AMCA at the moment, and India should and will concentrate on the Rafale, and Super Sukhoi Upgrade. The FGFA prototype could only be ready by 2020, and would be ready by 2026-27.

AMCA is a very high priority project. It should get clearance this year.

Right now, only feasibility and tecnical study is going on AMCA and should only be ready by 2035.

Design stage is complete. They are waiting for FSED clearance. They will start building the first TD next year.

And for MK-2 both IAF and IN development have been started, and decision is to be made, whether to go for the TVC or the Canard solution for the Supermaneurability, and most probably ADA will go for TVC solution.

N-LCA will look different, but no canards.

Speculation number XXX. Give your source or statement.

Very old news.
http://www.news18.com/news/business...ss-privatisation-of-psus-expected-699952.html

 

[BON PLAN]

Out of all three jets, only Gripen E has sensor fusion.

Gripen E only exists as a prototyp. I'm afraid its weapon system not mature yet. Specially with a totally new radar.
Gripen C/D is not known to have an impressiv sensor fusion. See Swiss tests report.
Rafale has it. Yesterday, now and tomorrow.

Gripen best in instantaneous turn rate? Why not.
But in Sustained turn rate? Its T/W ratio isn't a little bit short to do so?

Do you know In what conditions are made all these perf? how many fuel? how many weaponery ? speed? altitude?

 

[randomradio]

Gripen E only exists as a prototyp. I'm afraid its weapon system not mature yet. Specially with a totally new radar.
Gripen C/D is not known to have an impressiv sensor fusion. See Swiss tests report.
Rafale has is. yesterday, now and tomorrow.

Okay, let me get this out of the way first. Rafale is coming. All other jets are fighting for second place. So, Rafale's already won.

And unlike Gripen C, Gripen E does have full sensor fusion, like Rafale. But you are right about it being a prototype. Rafale is still many years ahead and will continue to hold that avanatge. But it's still better than the ASH and F-16IN which don't even exist.

Unlike SH and F-16, the Gripen program will be directly related to the LCA program as a whole. So it has more incentive to be part of IAF.

And before anybody jumps at this, I will get this out of the way too. Gripen will not interfere with the LCA program.

Do you know In what conditions are made all these perf? how many fuel? how many weaponery ? speed? altitude?

I don't know how these were calculated. I'm searching for the submission.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I really don't know how some people assume that Gripens are 80-90 million USD a piece ... If I remember it was 2012 and Switzerland was offered a price of 3.5 Billion USD for 22 aircrafts , not including service and upkeep contracts and also not including other lifetime costs. And also to mention it was C/D version. 160Million USD per aircraft ....

If I include all costs like that is happening in that of Rafale case , Gripen E/F will not cost below 220 million USD per air craft.

If its less than 120 million USD or less including airframe, training, weapons and infrastructure and local manufacturing with TOT as SAAB calls it, I am all for Gripen E/F.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sensor fusion. What defines a 5th gen aircraft is sensor fusion. Without it you can't have electronic stealth, like Rafale does. Even the F-35 has limited stealth from electronics.

5th gen is related to supercruiser and stealth. (and maybe sensor fusion)
I see no link between sensor fusion and stealth.

 

[topgun047]

Anyone know where do Tejas and F-16 stand on the graph posted by @randomradio ?

 

[BON PLAN]

I really don't know how some people assume that Gripens are 80-90 million USD a piece ... If I remember it was 2012 and Switzerland was offered a price of 3.5 Billion USD for 22 aircrafts , not including service and upkeep contracts and also not including other lifetime costs. And also to mention it was C/D version. 160Million USD per aircraft ....

If I include all costs like that is happening in that of Rafale case , Gripen E/F will not cost below 220 million USD per air craft.

If its less than 120 million USD or less including airframe, training, weapons and infrastructure and local manufacturing with TOT as SAAB calls it, I am all for Gripen E/F.

About price, you can find all kind of datas :
"Dry" price : plane alone, without spare, training, weapon, support... Same price as when you buy a new car : The tank is even not filled and there's just some oïl in the motor. No tires in spare....
"complete" price : with support (how many year of support???), spares, test bench, training, airfield base adaptation .... some weapon? ALL DEPEND HOW DEEPER YOU WANT THIS SUPPORT.

Anyone know where do Tejas and F-16 stand on the graph posted by @randomradio ?

F16 is on the slide.
And he said Tejas is between F16 and SU35.

 

[GURU DUTT]

About price, you can find all kind of datas :
"Dry" price : plane alone, without spare, training, weapon, support... Same price as when you buy a new car : The tank is even not filled and there's just some oïl in the motor. No tires in spare....
"complete" price : with support (how many year of support???), spares, test bench, training, airfield base adaptation .... some weapon? ALL DEPEND HOW DEEPER YOU WANT THIS SUPPORT.


F16 is on the slide.
And he said Tejas is between F16 and SU35.

so can you sir or any one tell me what is fly away cost and overall cost (weapons, training and maintainence and spares for 10 years) fo rafale , Grippen E , F16V and Sh-18-E/F