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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

The way our govt is blending strategically with US, they will 100% oblige them of a fighter deal and which one this gonna be ?
F16V is better placed as LM is ready to shift entire production and assembally line to india with all kinds of toolings and rigs plus the propects of F35 maybe even in MII but boeing has a better plane but downside is its very complex and expensive why not rafale instead of super hornet when rafale is 40% more potent inevery field than super hornet i guess
 
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F16V is better placed as LM is ready to shift entire production and assembally line to india with all kinds of toolings and rigs plus the propects of F35 maybe even in MII but boeing has a better plane but downside is its very complex and expensive why not rafale instead of super hornet when rafale is 40% more potent inevery field than super hornet i guess

Bro with such a crucial weapon system, the sword of end user agreement will always hang on ur head. India-china two way trade after 2020 will be around 400-500b $ per annum and we are not going to have same relations with them with such a high economic stake for both. and diffrences in relations with US are going to come for sure
 
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F16V is better placed as LM is ready to shift entire production and assembally line to india with all kinds of toolings and rigs plus the propects of F35 maybe even in MII but boeing has a better plane but downside is its very complex and expensive why not rafale instead of super hornet when rafale is 40% more potent inevery field than super hornet i guess
You've made a very clear case for no US fighters being inducted. No matter what anyone says, a single engined MMRCA is a LCA killer and this fact alone makes it untenable for any government. And trust me, no one in India's power circles sees the F-35 As a "sweetener" at all. Not only is it going to be horrendously expensive to operate, will come almost entirely closed to India (not even "teir 1" partners such as the UK get much access to the actual guts of the machine), is sub optimal for the tasks the IAF wants and would get beaten by the Rafale more often than LM would care to admit, but tell me why the IAF should be the ONLY airforce in the world operating THREE entirely different types of 5th gen/VLO fighter. If you're asking for a nightmare scenario this is it. Low availability, high cost VLO aircraft sat idle in their hangers for a significant period of time requiring intensive maintainence after every flight whilst the enemy with nothing but numbers on its side is at the fence. A mix of high availability 4.5++ and 5th gen VLO are needed along with next gen UCAVs, it makes no sense to put all your eggs in one basket because I assure you this weakness would be discovered at the worst possible time.

As far as the F-18 goes, Boeing are equally desperate to shift the production line to India if India assures them of mammoth sales (>100 units). These days the market for the F-18 has all but dried up and thus Boeing would me more than happy to offload the production to India and continue to earn handsome revenues for this long in the tooth product.
 
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Bro with such a crucial weapon system, the sword of end user agreement will always hang on ur head. India-china two way trade after 2020 will be around 400-500b $ per annum and we are not going to have same relations with them with such a high economic stake for both. and diffrences in relations with US are going to come for sure
thing is that possibility is already taken care off as nothing goes as per plan but since china despite all that trade is leaving no chance to antagonise india we cant trust china aswell and have to take sides or will be on recieveing end from both the opposing parties ... we have to stand up and take a stance till we are strong enof to deal with them on our oun

You've made a very clear case for no US fighters being inducted. No matter what anyone says, a single engined MMRCA is a LCA killer and this fact alone makes it untenable for any government. And trust me, no one in India's power circles sees the F-35 As a "sweetener" at all. Not only is it going to be horrendously expensive to operate, will come almost entirely closed to India (not even "teir 1" partners such as the UK get much access to the actual guts of the machine), is sub optimal for the tasks the IAF wants and would get beaten by the Rafale more often than LM would care to admit, but tell me why the IAF should be the ONLY airforce in the world operating THREE entirely different types of 5th gen/VLO fighter. If you're asking for a nightmare scenario this is it. Low availability, high cost VLO aircraft sat idle in their hangers for a significant period of time requiring intensive maintainence after every flight whilst the enemy with nothing but numbers on its side is at the fence. A mix of high availability 4.5++ and 5th gen VLO are needed along with next gen UCAVs, it makes no sense to put all your eggs in one basket because I assure you this weakness would be discovered at the worst possible time.

As far as the F-18 goes, Boeing are equally desperate to shift the production line to India if India assures them of mammoth sales (>100 units). These days the market for the F-18 has all but dried up and thus Boeing would me more than happy to offload the production to India and continue to earn handsome revenues for this long in the tooth product.
well F16 cause israelies and americans both are replacing there F16s with F35 hence a mere upgrade and its plug and play for immidiate dilliveries to adress shortfall in squadran strength of IAF

while F18 is a better product but at same price as rafale and we all know rafale is much much better lets hope for the best

as for LCA well F16V wont be LCA killer as aef sollah is a medium wirght and will be a frontline strike fighter while LCA is a light point defnce one
 
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The way our govt is blending strategically with US, they will 100% oblige them of a fighter deal and which one this gonna be ?
Really? Sorry bro but I don't see it. What has the Indo-US relationship actually delivered from a strategic perspective in the past 10 years? Almost nothing worth mentioning but a whole lot of empty rhetoric along the way. India gave them a fair chance earlier this year but they frankly insulted India with the offer they made- no ToT, no co-production with an Indian partner and no formal clearance from US congress for critical tech that the OEMs were offering (basically that they had no right to do) all for price points not dissimilar to the Rafale offer which comes with none of the strings attached of American products.

And this is now largely redundant as the US presidential election ramps up meaning that indo-US relations freeze for the next 18-24 months at least. Who knows what the next POTUS will be inclined to do for India. Under this much ambiguity the French are the complete reverse and are highly dependable and credible.

thing is that possibility is already taken care off as nothing goes as per plan but since china despite all that trade is leaving no chance to antagonise india we cant trust china aswell and have to take sides or will be on recieveing end from both the opposing parties ... we have to stand up and take a stance till we are strong enof to deal with them on our oun


well F16 cause israelies and americans both are replacing there F16s with F35 hence a mere upgrade and its plug and play for immidiate dilliveries to adress shortfall in squadran strength of

as for LCA well F16V wont be LCA killer as aef sollah is a medium wirght and will be a frontline strike fighter while LCA is a light point defnce one
See this is where the F-16 makes zero sense for the IAF. The F-16 is NOT a strike fighter, it may have all these trinkets and bells added to it over the years from block to block but it is and will never be a optimised ground pounder. It has a very mediocre payload capacity, limited low level strike ability and a highly limited range. Its MTOW may be quite a bit more than the LCA's but it is significantly less than the Rafale's (40% or more) and doesn't have the "legs" to take the fight to the enemy in their territory. Incidentally the Rafale has the highest payload and MTOW ratio to empty weight of any fighter in its class, the F18 E/F is about 40% larger than the Rafale but carries 3,000+ pounds less payload. It may suit the PAF's defensive doctrine that centres around A2A combat but it doesn't have any place within the IAF at all UNLESS it is that of the single engined air defence fighter and thus it would truly be stepping on the LCA's toes.


Thusly, the F-16 is either a LCA killer or an orphan for the IAF.
 
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Really? Sorry bro but I don't see it. What has the Indo-US relationship actually delivered from a strategic perspective in the past 10 years? Almost nothing worth mentioning but a whole lot of empty rhetoric along the way. India gave them a fair chance earlier this year but they frankly insulted India with the offer they made- no ToT, no co-production with an Indian partner and no formal clearance from US congress for critical tech that the OEMs were offering (basically that they had no right to do) all for price points not dissimilar to the Rafale offer which comes with none of the strings attached of American products.

And this is now largely redundant as the US presidential election ramps up meaning that indo-US relations freeze for the next 18-24 months at least. Who knows what the next POTUS will be inclined to do for India. Under this much ambiguity the French are the complete reverse and are highly dependable and credible.


See this is where the F-16 makes zero sense for the IAF. The F-16 is NOT a strike fighter, it may have all these trinkets and bells added to it over the years from block to block but it is and will never be a optimised ground pounder. It has a very mediocre payload capacity, limited low level strike ability and a highly limited range. Its MTOW may be quite a bit more than the LCA's but it is significantly less than the Rafale's (40% or more) and doesn't have the "legs" to take the fight to the enemy in their territory. It may suit the PAF's defensive doctrine that centres around A2A combat but it doesn't have any place within the IAF at all UNLESS it is that of the single engined air defence fighter and thus it would truly be stepping on the LCA's toes.


Thusly, the F-16 is either a LCA killer or an orphan for the IAF.
but bhai ji with latest AESA radar and new improoved latest gen avionicks suits and one of the most potent weapons package and 7.5 tonne load carrying capacity with option of CVT (which gives it a combat radius of some 700 km ) i guess its more than enof for westorn sector while MKI & rafale can take care of northen sector
 
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but bhai ji with latest AESA radar and new improoved latest gen avionicks suits and one of the most potent weapons package and 7.5 tonne load carrying capacity with option of CVT (which gives it a combat radius of some 700 km ) i guess its more than enof for westorn sector while MKI & rafale can take care of northen sector
So you want to fight F-16s with F-16s? This is another part where the entire proposal falls down. The PAF know the bird intimately, it would be foolish to think that some spruced up versions with upgraded electronics will give the IAF a clear edge over them in the same bloody birds! How stupid is the DM and Indian media that this proposal is (supposedly) even being taken seriously? What other adversaries are operating identical equipment?


The mind boggles.
 
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NO IT CANNOT BE A WASTE OF MONEY. If something is getting added to IAF then it will evetually help india in wars which will go on for longer period.APPLY "COMMON SENSE" my fellow friend.
Bro,

SH18 has nothing more to offer than Rafale has. And the contrary is not true....
Except a bigger radar, so maybe a bigger range, but SH is also less stealthy, so not cruxial.

With the commercial power and military umbrella of USA, do you really think than if SH18 was a so impressiv machine, only 24 were selled on export ?
 
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not exactly as we are short of fighters deu to potential two front war and we need US support so buying another MRCA/american fighter is more for a tactical and politcial obligation
Only a political reason. And it's a very good reason. The only to select SH18, because tacticaly SH is not a good choice.

Two words: Aerospace Industry
I'm not sure to understand you post.

But do you really expect US will help you to built a futur competitor? sure not.

Won't make a difference. Indian companies will be producing the aircraft. Boeing wants to hold on to their IPR through the 100% subsidy, but they will transfer tech to all the Indian companies involved.

What we want is manufacturing facilities in India, with Indian manpower working on the jet. That's what will build the aerospace industry, not IPR. Their IPR can go to hell, their tech will be old compared to other programs like FGFA and AMCA anyway which will make it entirely irrelevant.

Tata produces the fuselage, HAL produces the engines, L&T produces the radar etc, that's what we are aiming for. Boeing plan to have their entire SH production line transferred to Indian companies while Boeing will merely be an integrator + IPR holder. Maybe not even an integrator, they will most likely at best have one or two offices in Delhi and other cities for managing the project at best.

Won't make a difference. Indian companies will be producing the aircraft. Boeing wants to hold on to their IPR through the 100% subsidy, but they will transfer tech to all the Indian companies involved.

What we want is manufacturing facilities in India, with Indian manpower working on the jet. That's what will build the aerospace industry, not IPR. Their IPR can go to hell, their tech will be old compared to other programs like FGFA and AMCA anyway which will make it entirely irrelevant.

Tata produces the fuselage, HAL produces the engines, L&T produces the radar etc, that's what we are aiming for. Boeing plan to have their entire SH production line transferred to Indian companies while Boeing will merely be an integrator + IPR holder. Maybe not even an integrator, they will most likely at best have one or two offices in Delhi and other cities for managing the project at best.
You already have something to developp your Aerospace Industry.

It has a nice name...

TEJAS (and his futur brothers).

As I said , second MMRCA (most probably US one) ,if procured, would be a political decision, not a financial and technical one.
It would be the only good reason.
Technically, If US give you the assembly line, it's because the bird is totally outdated....
 
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I'm not sure to understand you post.

But do you really expect US will help you to built a futur competitor? sure not.

Yes, because it's not a choice for the US. In fact, the US will be transferring their entire production line. So India will be the future supply base. It is possible that Boeing will make India the supply base for the USN also. That's huge business.

You already have something to developp your Aerospace Industry.

It has a nice name...

TEJAS (and his futur brothers).

HAL will jealously guard it.

The only way for us to build an aerospace industry is if we pick two MRCAs, Rafale and another. This will create two competitors in the private industry.

It means India will have three major companies capable of building a fighter aircraft, HAL and two private companies.

Technically, If US give you the assembly line, it's because the bird is totally outdated....

That's true. But it will help companies with no experience to build a jet. HAL is guaranteed not to provide any help.

Btw, the second MRCA program is guaranteed to happen. What's in question is will there be a third.
 
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Yes, because it's not a choice for the US. In fact, the US will be transferring their entire production line. So India will be the future supply base. It is possible that Boeing will make India the supply base for the USN also. That's huge business.
Wasn't Boeing which stopped doors production in India last year as subcontractor? It would be surprising they give you the key of the SH entire line, with supply for USN.

The only way for us to build an aerospace industry is if we pick two MRCAs, Rafale and another. This will create two competitors in the private industry.

It means India will have three major companies capable of building a fighter aircraft, HAL and two private companies.
3? It's one too much.
Even US today has only 2 fighters producer. As Russia.
 
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Wasn't Boeing which stopped doors production in India last year as subcontractor? It would be surprising they give you the key of the SH entire line, with supply for USN.

That was HAL. HAL's quality was bad. But both Boeing and Airbus have given contracts to many Indian companies. All Apache fuselages will be made in India by Tata for the global market.

As for USN, we won't provide them with new aircraft, I'm talking about parts for life extension programs and upgrades.

3? It's one too much.

HAL with LCA. Reliance with Rafale. Tata/L&T with SH/Gripen E.

Parrikar plans to have 3 or 4 fighter jet production lines. Decision for 3 have most likely been made already, LCA, Rafale and second MRCA. There might be a third MRCA also, that decision is pending. Plus there's the LSA.

The plan is to build a 200,000 strong aerospace industry in 10 years.
 
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With the commercial power and military umbrella of USA, do you really think than if SH18 was a so impressiv machine, only 24 were selled on export ?

While I'd agree with you on a lot things this is not one of them. :disagree:

iqINFP0.jpg
 
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Very nice image of the awesome Tomcat there ^^^
Just wonderin' though, how does it relate to Bon Plan
giving the number of export SuperHornets which is
still 24 to Oz as we write?

:what: Tay.
 
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