Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[GURU DUTT]

ummm you are right, but when you take into costs for the Rafale the ASH still is tempting.

if you want SEAD/DEAD the Growler is perfect for that. yeah it isn't one package deal like the Rafale, but it'll get the job done.

two squadrons of Growlers=24
four squadrons of F/A 18 E/F for future India aircraft carrier=48
five squadrons of F/A 18 ASH=60

that's 132 aircraft 6 over what you wanted for MMRCA


assuming each is around $70 million flyaway cost that's $9.2 billion, add another $5 billion for weapons and what stuff and that's not a bad deal


how much ToT and Make in India is another story.

sure super hornet is a great pakage and gives great political milage to india and has engine comminality with LCA aswell but its not something great or say economical as compared to rafale as there is just a diffrence of some 10-15 million dollars per pop in fly away condition while comes almost same as when calculated in over all costs

but what makes rafale the winner is ita load carrying capacity with its sensror fussion and ofcourse SPECTRA and onli role powress as a single rafale can do job of a super hornet and a growler in the same sortie and is better for low level SEAD-DEAD-CSA type missions than super hornet

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sirji aap jangee tayyarre kee baat ker rahe ho ya koi sports car ki

 

[Grevion]

lmao

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rafale!!!!hahaha

@randomradio @Abingdonboy

But rafale is already choosen! Why should we choose again?? Is our media that naive?

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We can have it in the stars and strips for all that matter.(no hard feelings here as I respect the american flag as much as I respect the Indian one)
But that would be a no go in India.

 

[GURU DUTT]

But rafale is already choosen! Why should we choose again?? Is our media that naive?

We can have it in the stars and strips if we want.(no hard feelings here as I respect the american flag as I respect the Indian flag)
But that would be a no go in India.

thiong is indian paid media presstitutes are all for grippen due to SAAB having the biggest PR budget in any defence OEM currently marketing its products in indian defnce market

 

[Perpendicular]

sirji aap jangee tayyarre kee baat ker rahe ho ya koi sports car ki

Jadeed Jungi tayaara, guru ji

We can have it in the stars and strips for all we want.(no hard feelings here as I respect the american flag as I respect the Indian flag)
But that would be a no go in India.

Actually I like the Roundel of IAF back to the one used from 1947 to 1950.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I still think the wiser move would be to go for F/A 18 Advance Super Hornets along with 5 to 10 E-2D Advance Hawkeyes

both could be used on land or on India future aircraft carriers


combination of Advance Super Hornet+AIM-120D+E-2D would be a deadly force against anybody

https://defence.pk/threads/revealed-japans-secret-weapon-to-destroy-chinas-j-20-and-j-31.402308/

The IAF has no use for the E-2D but the Indian navy is interested in it however they aren't interested in the F-18.


I still fail to see why the unfunded "advanced super hornet" is a better option than than the Rafale. It would cost fluky the same (if not more so), have less outright performance, be limited by the restrictive end user agreements the US would impose and would not be able to be used as nuclear delivery platforms.

 

[BON PLAN]

sure super hornet is a great pakage and gives great political milage to india and has engine comminality with LCA aswell but its not something great or say economical as compared to rafale as there is just a diffrence of some 10-15 million dollars per pop in fly away condition while comes almost same as when calculated in over all costs

but what makes rafale the winner is ita load carrying capacity with its sensror fussion and ofcourse SPECTRA and onli role powress as a single rafale can do job of a super hornet and a growler in the same sortie and is better for low level SEAD-DEAD-CSA type missions than super hornet


sirji aap jangee tayyarre kee baat ker rahe ho ya koi sports car ki

India is a big country.
You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
One MMRCA
Futur FGFA
SU30
and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29

Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?

 

[Abingdonboy]

ummm you are right, but when you take into costs for the Rafale the ASH still is tempting.

if you want SEAD/DEAD the Growler is perfect for that. yeah it isn't one package deal like the Rafale, but it'll get the job done.

two squadrons of Growlers=24
four squadrons of F/A 18 E/F for future India aircraft carrier=48
five squadrons of F/A 18 ASH=60

that's 132 aircraft 6 over what you wanted for MMRCA


assuming each is around $70 million flyaway cost that's $9.2 billion, add another $5 billion for weapons and other stuff and that's not a bad deal.

total life cycle cost is probably more than Rafale.

how much ToT and Make in India is another story.

These costs are imaginary my friend and I don't know where you are getting them from. The RAAF paid far more for the E/F Super Hornets, there is no way the ASH would be sold to India at that price point. The ASH is still a paper plane with no customers as of yet and no one outside of Boeing could tell us exactly what it would cost in a flyaway condition but it certainly wouldn't be significantly cheaper than the Rafale, I'd wager it may actually cost more than the Rafales the IAF will get.

India is a big country.
You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
One MMRCA
Futur FGFA
SU30
and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29

Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?

I total waste of money but who cares, right? When you have a media so disconnected from reality that don't even try to hide their bias or how compromised they are by bribery and a DM who is more interested in optics and perceptions to further his own political career the last question on anyone's mind is about cost effectiveness or the utility or the poor chaps who have to fight in these machines.

 

[ashish1]

N

India is a big country.
You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
One MMRCA
Futur FGFA
SU30
and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29

Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?

NO IT CANNOT BE A WASTE OF MONEY. If something is getting added to IAF then it will evetually help india in wars which will go on for longer period.APPLY "COMMON SENSE" my fellow friend.

 

[Abingdonboy]

thiong is indian paid media presstitutes are all for grippen due to SAAB having the biggest PR budget in any defence OEM currently marketing its products in indian defnce market

Presstitutes to the core.

 

[GURU DUTT]

India is a big country.
You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
One MMRCA
Futur FGFA
SU30
and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29

Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?

not exactly as we are short of fighters deu to potential two front war and we need US support so buying another MRCA/american fighter is more for a tactical and politcial obligation

 

[Abingdonboy]

N

NO IT CANNOT BE A WASTE OF MONEY. If something is getting added to IAF then it will evetually help india in wars which will go on for longer period.APPLY "COMMON SENSE" my fellow friend.

You have missed the entire purpose of his post brother. He is not saying that the plans themselves are pointless but the DUPLICATION OF SERVICES/WEAPONS/SPARES etc etc is HIGHLY inefficient and a complete waste of money.

Basically, he is talking about how India is ignoring economies of scale.

Jadeed Jungi tayaara, guru ji


Actually I like the Roundel of IAF back to the one used from 1947 to 1950.

Those chakra roundals were glorious and distinctive, I have no idea why the IAF switched to these dull and typical fin flashes that look like the Irish flag.

 

[randomradio]

India is a big country.
You already have (or in a near futur) : Tejas,
One MMRCA
Futur FGFA
SU30
and a fleet of upgraded M2000 and Mig29

Do you really need another MMRCA ? Isn't a waste of money?

Two words: Aerospace Industry

 

[Abingdonboy]

not exactly as we are short of fighters deu to potential two front war and we need US support so buying another MRCA/american fighter is more for a tactical and politcial obligation

I seriously worry for the IAF if they induct an American fighter. The trouble would be the IAF would then have to play by THEIR rules. With a French/Swedish/Indian/Russian product/fighter India can largely customise it to the requirement of the user(s)- fit Indian data links, IFF, secured comns, nav systems, integrate third party sub systems etc etc as well as integrate Indian weapons and this will be increasingly relevant as the R&D efforts of DRDO and others bare more and more fruit. However, the US is unique in the conditions that their products and especially fighters are sold with. The end user agreements would mean entire sections of the IAF's own planes were sealed and inaccessible to anyone outside of the OEM(Boeing). Furthermore would these American assets really integrate into the Indian military as well as any aforementioned nation's fighters? I'm not so sure, we saw the issues in Red Flag 2008 where NATO assets weren't able to data link with the IAF MKIs who were using their Indian data links.


Unless India can get iron clad assurances that it will be left alone to operate its own assets as it chooses then F-22s sold at cost price aren't even worth the loss of sovereignty such a purchase would entail. And India will NEVER get anything like such assurances, there is nothing unique about how the US views India, see how they treat their closest "friends", they would treat India just the same. And this isn't an anti American rant, every nation would act the same if they were in the US's position. Everyone looks out for their interests, there are no free lunches.

Two words: Aerospace Industry

And if Boeing are insisting on a 100% owned subsidiary to make their F-18s in India how does india's aerospace industry benefit?

 

[randomradio]

And if Boeing are insisting on a 100% owned subsidiary to make their F-18s in India how does india's aerospace industry benefit?

Won't make a difference. Indian companies will be producing the aircraft. Boeing wants to hold on to their IPR through the 100% subsidy, but they will transfer tech to all the Indian companies involved.

What we want is manufacturing facilities in India, with Indian manpower working on the jet. That's what will build the aerospace industry, not IPR. Their IPR can go to hell, their tech will be old compared to other programs like FGFA and AMCA anyway which will make it entirely irrelevant.

Tata produces the fuselage, HAL produces the engines, L&T produces the radar etc, that's what we are aiming for. Boeing plan to have their entire SH production line transferred to Indian companies while Boeing will merely be an integrator + IPR holder. Maybe not even an integrator, they will most likely at best have one or two offices in Delhi and other cities for managing the project at best.

 

[[Bregs]]

I seriously worry for the IAF if they induct an American fighter. The trouble would be the IAF would then have to play by THEIR rules. With a French/Swedish/Indian/Russian product/fighter India can largely customise it to the requirement of the user(s)- fit Indian data links, IFF, secured comns, nav systems, integrate third party sub systems etc etc as well as integrate Indian weapons and this will be increasingly relevant as the R&D efforts of DRDO and others bare more and more fruit. However, the US is unique in the conditions that their products and especially fighters are sold with. The end user agreements would mean entire sections of the IAF's own planes were sealed and inaccessible to anyone outside of the OEM(Boeing). Furthermore would these American assets really integrate into the Indian military as well as any aforementioned nation's fighters? I'm not so sure, we saw the issues in Red Flag 2008 where NATO assets weren't able to data link with the IAF MKIs who were using their Indian data links.


Unless India can get iron clad assurances that it will be left alone to operate its own assets as it chooses then F-22s sold at cost price aren't even worth the loss of sovereignty such a purchase would entail. And India will NEVER get anything like such assurances, there is nothing unique about how the US views India, see how they treat their closest "friends", they would treat India just the same. And this isn't an anti American rant, every nation would act the same if they were in the US's position. Everyone looks out for their interests, there are no free lunches.


And if Boeing are insisting on a 100% owned subsidiary to make their F-18s in India how does india's aerospace industry benefit?

The way our govt is blending strategically with US, they will 100% oblige them of a fighter deal and which one this gonna be ?