Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[BON PLAN]

India is using US fear of China? While on planet earth - China is next door to India and US is continents away. Worst case scenario for US- We leaves you guys to fend for yourself. Worst case scenario for India - combined Sino-Pak invasion kicking Indian butt! and there is nothing India can do about it.

US is unreliable partner? Ask Taiwan! China is not able to gobble up that little fish just because of US umbrella. Ask Europe! We protected Europe for all of 4 decades from Soviet Juggernaut. Ask Ukraine! Had it not for shadow of US, Russia would have annexed all of Ukraine instead of a tiny piece of 90% Russian speaking Crimea and there is nothing they could do about it. Ask S. Korea! Why they sleep peacefully despite having a nuclear armed crazy next door!

As for US weapons and their reliability. Ask the saner members of Pakistan- There is a reason they swear by F-16s despite all said and done and the reason is that it is the fear of F-16 which keeps 100s of sukhois firmly on their side of the border.

Problem of being a smartass is that in the end you end being just an a*s.

Ask UAE about the NO GO for the use of F16'60 in Lybia in 2011 (but they used their Mirage 2000-9 instead. Thanks to... France !).
Same about Egypt it seems.

 

[Dash]

The NSG has nothing to do with Rafale. CNC will be finishing negotiations this month and submit a report to Parrikar.

As for the US, Parrikar has asked the US companies to get all the tech they need to transfer cleared by the Congress first, and then talk to India. This way the Korean F-35 fiasco can be avoided.

I can agree only with a may be caluse.

 

[SmilingBuddha]

Rafale deal to be finalized soon, says Manohar Parrikar

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Fri, 17 Jun 2016-10:00pm , Bengaluru (Karnataka) , ANI
Union Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Friday said the negotiations to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets were "on path of coming to conclusion".

Both sides hoped to wrap up the strategic order during French President Francois Hollande's visit for the Republic Day celebrations in January this year, but bargaining on price stalled a final result.

"When we have waited for 15-16 years? I think we are now on path of coming to conclusion," Parrikar told reporters in the Bengaluru after witnessing the inaugural flight session of indigenously built aircraft Hindustan Turbo Trainer 40 (HTT 40).

HTT-40 is a new basic training aircraft developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Indian Air Force. Parrikar said the two sides were yet to arrive at a decision on pricing. "It's a big purchase we have to be careful and every 0.1 percent savings itself is a hundreds of crores. So let the exercise be done with some patience," he said.

Hollande and Prime Minister Narendra Modi intervened in the troubled Rafale procurement last year, ordering government-to-government talks after commercial negotiations with Dassault had collapsed. The leaders agreed to scale back an original plan to buy 126 Rafale planes to just 36 in fly-away condition to meet the Indian Air Force's urgent needs as it faces an assertive China and long-time foe Pakistan.

Source:
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-rafale-deal-to-be-finalized-soon-says-manohar-parrikar-2224882

 

[Taygibay]

Ask Ukraine! Had it not for shadow of US, Russia would have annexed all of Ukraine instead of a tiny piece of 90% Russian speaking Crimea and there is nothing they could do about it.

Hum! Except for that pesky treaty which said :
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
political independence of Ukraine ...

and also

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression ...

https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedeno..._ukraine_s_accession_to_the_treaty_on_the_npt

So that mere lip service was paid to a promise that in exchange for abandoning its nukes under NPT rules,
Ukraine could count on the signatories to help it out as part of the Conference on Security and Cooperation
in Europe (CSCE).

Of course, Kiev was naïve to think that a UNSC in which Russia holds a veto would
do them any good even if America did bring the matter forward but still ...
definitely not the best example one could find to support the idea that the USA hold
their promises to say the least.

Just sayin' in passing cuz honestly this whole convo is a bit off-topic anyway, Tay.

Rafale deal to be finalized soon, says Manohar Parrikar

Yeah well, soon in IST is such an elusive timeframe.
Is the Rafale the successor of the Rukma Vimana for example?
That would make this procurement over 4,000 years long and counting!!!
It would explain the insistence on MII because I'm not sure the Mérignac
line will still be open in the 22nd century ...

Might as well re-open the tender and wait for the Enterprise that will start its
maiden voyage on Stardate 2245.04 before half of the 23rd century has passed?

Oh, well, just random thoughts on what soon means in this case.
Have agreat day all and keep smiling, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

Just sayin' in passing cuz honestly this whole convo is a bit off-topic anyway, Tay.

It all comes back to whether India can trust the US during times of trouble after having bought sanctionable material from them. The US is good to all its treaty allies, not to lip service allies.

Yeah well, soon in IST is such an elusive timeframe.
Is the Rafale the successor of the Rukma Vimana for example?
That would make this procurement over 4,000 years long and counting!!!
It would explain the insistence on MII because I'm not sure the Mérignac
line will still be open in the 22nd century ...

Might as well re-open the tender and wait for the Enterprise that will start its
maiden voyage on Stardate 2245.04 before half of the 23rd century has passed?

Oh, well, just random thoughts on what soon means in this case.
Have agreat day all and keep smiling, Tay.

Vstol on IDF says the delay is because they are waiting for rains, the onset of monsoons.

Funny as it may sound, it is actually a pretty important reason. The CCS has not cleared any deal in months since April, which actually makes it true.

So the Enterprise will have to wait.

 

[Piper]

It all comes back to whether India can trust the US during times of trouble after having bought sanctionable material from them. The US is good to all its treaty allies, not to lip service allies.



Vstol on IDF says the delay is because they are waiting for rains, the onset of monsoons.

Funny as it may sound, it is actually a pretty important reason. The CCS has not cleared any deal in months since April, which actually makes it true.

So the Enterprise will have to wait.

become a treaty ally

Hum! Except for that pesky treaty which said :
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
political independence of Ukraine ...

and also

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression ...

https://www.msz.gov.pl/en/p/wiedeno..._ukraine_s_accession_to_the_treaty_on_the_npt

So that mere lip service was paid to a promise that in exchange for abandoning its nukes under NPT rules,
Ukraine could count on the signatories to help it out as part of the Conference on Security and Cooperation
in Europe (CSCE).

Of course, Kiev was naïve to think that a UNSC in which Russia holds a veto would
do them any good even if America did bring the matter forward but still ...
definitely not the best example one could find to support the idea that the USA hold
their promises to say the least.

Just sayin' in passing cuz honestly this whole convo is a bit off-topic anyway, Tay.



Yeah well, soon in IST is such an elusive timeframe.
Is the Rafale the successor of the Rukma Vimana for example?
That would make this procurement over 4,000 years long and counting!!!
It would explain the insistence on MII because I'm not sure the Mérignac
line will still be open in the 22nd century ...

Might as well re-open the tender and wait for the Enterprise that will start its
maiden voyage on Stardate 2245.04 before half of the 23rd century has passed?

Oh, well, just random thoughts on what soon means in this case.
Have agreat day all and keep smiling, Tay.

Treaties are only worth as much as the enforcing entity. The fact remains US is alone capable of that enforcement

 

[SR-91]

Hum!
Yeah well, soon in IST is such an elusive timeframe.
Is the Rafale the successor of the Rukma Vimana for example?
That would make this procurement over 4,000 years long and counting!!!
It would explain the insistence on MII because I'm not sure the Mérignac
line will still be open in the 22nd century ...

Might as well re-open the tender and wait for the Enterprise that will start its
maiden voyage on Stardate 2245.04 before half of the 23rd century has passed?

Oh, well, just random thoughts on what soon means in this case.
Have agreat day all and keep smiling, Tay.

Tay sir..WOW..in trolling mode today???


It was our upset buddy @Abingdonboy yesterday, now U too??

What the hellllll, I'll troll some too.

Parrikar has been sitting on this Rafale deal for so longgg...... that the crack in his AS$, ............... Is now GONE.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

It's a game of patience where one side will end up being a mental patient.

 

[randomradio]

become a treaty ally

Why?

Alliances are made for mutually beneficial causes. There is none when it comes to China. We are not China's enemies, we are only competitive with each other and we have a small border issue which both countries have said they want to resolve at the earliest. If that's done, China and India will have no reason to fight, ever.

China does not have the military strength to defeat India and vice versa. And even if a war happened, the objectives China or India want are too insignificant to fight for. It's just a bunch of rocks, no major resources and extremely inhospitable terrain. So the incentive to fight doesn't exist beyond a prestige/ego issue. In fact I won't be surprised if China and India sign a non-aggression pact over the next 10 years.

NATO was formed to counter the Soviet threat in Europe, India has no such overwhelming enemy at its doorstep.

Anyway, it is India's policy to be non-aligned. Any military benefits with the US is technological and business oriented which makes an alliance treaty unnecessary.

The US wants to arm India only so India can police the Asia Pacific region and be capable of getting into an arms race with China without problems. If the US manages to do that, they have won. But that's also India's objective. As long as this equation is not broken, India and the US will be on amicable terms. And the US is interested in making money while they are at it. So that should be enough.

 

[SR-91]

It's a game of patience where one side will end up being a mental patient.

@PARIKRAMA bro, u have sir @Taygibay permission to troll, but only on FRIDAYS.

 

[[Bregs]]

It's a game of patience where one side will end up being a mental patient.

very well summarized in one line, how a deal shall not be made the rafale saga is glaring example of that

 

[Abingdonboy]

India is using US fear of China? While on planet earth - China is next door to India and US is continents away.

The US is paranoid about losing its undisputed postion as the sole global "superpower" and has been projecting any "up and comer" as a threat to its supremacy for the past 100 or so years, previously it was Germany, then the USSR, then Japan (1980s), now China, down the line it could be India.

It is not a controversial statement to say the US public are fundamentally threatened by the "rise" of China, the extent to the valididty of this threat is debateble but this is the perception.

Worst case scenario for India - combined Sino-Pak invasion kicking Indian butt! and there is nothing India can do about it.

India can (and is) build up its own abilities to fend off a combined Sino-Pak fight without the US's involvement.

US is unreliable partner? Ask Taiwan! China is not able to gobble up that little fish just because of US umbrella. Ask Europe! We protected Europe for all of 4 decades from Soviet Juggernaut. Ask Ukraine! Had it not for shadow of US, Russia would have annexed all of Ukraine instead of a tiny piece of 90% Russian speaking Crimea and there is nothing they could do about it. Ask S. Korea! Why they sleep peacefully despite having a nuclear armed crazy next door!

A one off example that is hardly representative of how the US treats all of its "friends". I am not claiming that the US is any different to any other nation simply that it protects its own interests and most of the US's interests are not those of India so India would be foolish to climb into bed with a notoriously fair weather friend.

As for US weapons and their reliability. Ask the saner members of Pakistan- There is a reason they swear by F-16s despite all said and done and the reason is that it is the fear of F-16 which keeps 100s of sukhois firmly on their side of the border.

Problem of being a smartass is that in the end you end being just an a*s.

No aguments from me here.

 

[noksss]

HYDERABAD: Defence deals, unlike purchase of televisions or mobile phones, are not made overnight and take "a lot of time" owing to bureaucratic procedures, defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday.

Speaking at a function here, Parrikar noted that sometimes, in the bureaucracy, those who do not understand anything about the product, deal with their procurement.

"Things do take time in defence (deals). Even if I make an order, it does not happen overnight because it requires time to mature. Army items are not procured off the shelf like you buy a TV or a mobile, like you walk into a shop and come out with the product," he said.

"To place a defence order, it takes a hell lot of time. With every Tom, Dick and Harry sitting in the department ... those who do not understand anything about actual product asking some vague questions, sometimes funny questions, also sometimes relevant questions. After he satisfies himself he gets transferred and somebody else comes in and raises different kind of queries again ... it takes lot of time," Parrikar said.
The defence minister was speaking at the foundation-laying ceremony of a new facility here for Tata Boeing Aerospace Limited (TBAL), a joint venture between Boeing and Tata Advanced Systems.
Parrikar said the government's emphasis was on skill development programmes for aviation sector, and it was working with Boeing towards that.

The minister, who in the morning visited T-Hub, a technological incubator started by the Telangana government, interacted with the budding entrepreneurs there.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...rnight-says-Parrikar/articleshow/52810630.cms

 

[Taygibay]

"Things do take time in defence (deals). Even if I make an order, it does not happen overnight because it requires time to mature. Army items are not procured off the shelf like you buy a TV or a mobile, like you walk into a shop and come out with the product," he said.


"To place a defence order, it takes a hell lot of time. With every Tom, Dick and Harry sitting in the department ... those who do not understand anything about actual product asking some vague questions, sometimes funny questions, also sometimes relevant questions. After he satisfies himself he gets transferred and somebody else comes in and raises different kind of queries again ... it takes lot of time," Parrikar said.

Three things :
A- A jet is not a watermelon nor a child; that maturing thing is nonsense. Other countries do it faster, period!

B- If you do have people asking stupid questions all through your department, it's poorly run, period!

C- Once again Parrikar has his mouth running to give details and excuses; how about working for real?

That is what a DM looks like :

​

Follow your troops and sign contracts!
The rest is gesturing and posturing ...
the usual BS politicians do on average.

If he likes mikes and cameras so much,
he should have his own TV show ...
Oh wait, that's someone else entirely ...

​

or is it?​

There are countries with DMs who few here would know the names of that do a better job at procurements.
That simple! Sorry to say, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

Three things :
A- A jet is not a watermelon nor a child; that maturing thing is nonsense. Other countries do it faster, period!

B- If you do have people asking stupid questions all through your department, it's poorly run, period!

C- Once again Parrikar has his mouth running to give details and excuses; how about working for real?

That is what a DM looks like :

View attachment 311528

View attachment 311529
​

Follow your troops and sign contracts!
The rest is gesturing and posturing ...
the usual BS politicians do on average.

If he likes mikes and cameras so much,
he should have his own TV show ...
Oh wait, that's someone else entirely ...

View attachment 311531 ​

or is it?​

There are countries with DMs who few here would know the names of that do a better job at procurements.
That simple! Sorry to say, Tay.

He's cleared $30B in sales in the first 11 months since he came to power, out of a total of $47B. Out of that the CCS has cleared, from our estimates, more than $20B, all under Parrikar. We don't know how much more he's cleared since then.

What most people don't know is about the sectors he's cleared a lot of those deals in. Most of those are not for media release. People only see artillery guns, ammunition, AWACS, transport aircraft, helicopters, ships etc, but that's the only aspects really covered by the media. They forget that India has far more important conventional weapons requirements.

He's also improved the bureaucracy. The very fact that he is talking about it shows that he's working to fix it. Plus, the new DPP is his, which is slowly headed to become the most successful defence manufacturing program in the country's history.

Basically, for people who know what he's been doing, he's done an amazing job. Le Drian's job is far easier by comparison.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-india-programme-parrikar-116061800491_1.html

"We are in the process of putting up 2-3 different projects in Make In India (programme), which will require environment creation and skilled manpower...I expect in the current financial year we should deliver a lot of such decisions of the government that we can see really ' Make In India' happening in large scale by the end of 2016-17," Minister Parrikar said.

Prepare to go blind by seeing what's coming up over the next 1 year.