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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Even if Parrikar is an inefficient moron, it's India's loss.Why are you crying over it ?

India will buy your super duper competent omni role phalana dhimka jet if and when it decides to.
Capiche?
I don't see any Indian herebitching about France's (in)famous Labour laws or the legendary 35 hour work week.
 
Three things :
A- A jet is not a watermelon nor a child; that maturing thing is nonsense. Other countries do it faster, period!

B- If you do have people asking stupid questions all through your department, it's poorly run, period!

C- Once again Parrikar has his mouth running to give details and excuses; how about working for real?

That is what a DM looks like :

Follow your troops and sign contracts!
The rest is gesturing and posturing ...
the usual BS politicians do on average.

If he likes mikes and cameras so much,
he should have his own TV show ...
Oh wait, that's someone else entirely ...

or is it?

There are countries with DMs who few here would know the names of that do a better job at procurements.
That simple! Sorry to say, Tay.

Not going into the Details, but only to the point

1. No single man not even PM Modi can make the decission of Deal, without following the procedure of procurement.

2. Rafale Deal, is more of Stratagic Deal, which many more things than Rafale itself.

3. Defence Minister Parrikar is not responsible for the security of India, its the Secretary of Defence.
 
Even if Parrikar is an inefficient moron, it's India's loss.Why are you crying over it ?

India will buy your super duper competent omni role phalana dhimka jet if and when it decides to.
Capiche?
I don't see any Indian herebitching about France's (in)famous Labour laws or the legendary 35 your work week.

Patience, rest assure everything would be fine.
 
Signing of defence acquisitions is not linear; not all are equal accomplishments.

Buying in-house is ridiculously simple. Check how many contracts the US does
on a nearly daily basis. If that is difficult, you're doomed so no credit given there.

Buying when you have little or no choice is also not a performance marker. For
example, buying E-2s for our navy is a no-brainer as alternatives don't exist ...
and buying a few Hercs in a rush because Airbus can't deliver in time is too.

And extensions on existing deals ( say MKI ) are no great achievements either.

And some deals are political.

Only the big foreign deals count to the DM's credit.

:sniper:
I care because I have Indian friends and also because I have an interest in all
armed forces. Comparing to non-mil matters is disingenuous but just for the sake
of answering honestly, I have a lower opinion of my President than of your DM
and you're welcome to add reasoned remarks to fuel my rhetoric if you can.

Still, a cry-baby call like : "India will buy ... (any) ... jet if and when it decides to."
should be cause for a historical cheer - Remember the M2000! - as in Remember the Alamo.
Time is stretchable in India and in space at high speeds but not elsewhere &
when military personnel lives depend on timely acquisitions, failing to procure
is endangering them. I root for Indian servicemen cuz I never was DM myself.

If you love your country, may I suggest taking care of it before b1tch1ng others?

:sniper:
1- Entirely right! But the local corollary seems to be : One has to wonder if anyone can.

2- And time plays no part in strategy? Should France acquire more machine guns
to defend the Verdun trenches and refurbish the Maginot line in case the Germans
attack? The Cold war is over too ... strategy for yesterday is no help tomorrow.
That's why such things as Transformation Command exist! Even slow NATO got it.

3- ... while nearly every other land, functional ones at the very least, have one post
for that job. Maybe a second overseer is BS? Maybe it explains a lot? Oh! Of course,
it provides one more Babu position to fill someone's pockets. I am sincerely more
worried about the Indian soldiers having enough bullet proof vests than about ...
any/all of the
bureaucrats having a pay check, simply because I empathize with the
former and not the latter.

In general, excuses over results make me sick to my stomach, for both war and peace!
Everywhere too! Take a line from America's book :
There are no problems, only solutions!
It's a much better attitude than the reverse!

Good luck to all and good day to those who want it, Tay.

 
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Even if Parrikar is an inefficient moron, it's India's loss.Why are you crying over it ?

India will buy your super duper competent omni role phalana dhimka jet if and when it decides to.
Capiche?
I don't see any Indian herebitching about France's (in)famous Labour laws or the legendary 35 hour work week.
You're right.

but....

Even with only 35 hours a week work duration, french workers has one (if not THE one) of the best efficiency in the world.

I have a lower opinion of my President than of your DM
So I am.
 
Even with only 35 hours a week work duration, french workers has one (if not THE one) of the best efficiency in the world.

And in reference to this pseudo-potential Raffy deal,
the proof was made at the end of the MMRCA saga
when the GoI discovered that HAL would require so
much more time that in the end labor costs would be
high enough to constitute a sticking point ...

which some now conveniently forget.

8-)
Tay.
 
Signing of defence acquisitions is not linear; not all are equal accomplishments.

Buying in-house is ridiculously simple. Check how many contracts the US does
on a nearly daily basis. If that is difficult, you're doomed so no credit given there.

Buying when you have little or no choice is also not a performance marker. For
example, buying E-2s for our navy is a no-brainer as alternatives don't exist ...
and buying a few Hercs in a rush because Airbus can't deliver in time is too.

And extensions on existing deals ( say MKI ) are no great achievements either.

And some deals are political.

Only the big foreign deals count to the DM's credit.

You will be surprised to know how bad the UPA was in buying in-house, let alone from outside.

Except for one sector, most of India's purchases were not in-house. Two more Phalcons in a new deal. Apache and Chinook, C-295, they are all from outside. Apache and Chinook came from tenders and were signed under the BJP while C-17, P-8I and C-130 were FMS deals under the UPA. The credit goes to Parrikar for not having canceled the helicopter tenders, like it was the case with all other helicopter tenders.

Similarly, the multi-billion dollar deals between Reliance and the Russian arms industry for ships and missiles are also Parrikar's.

The extension to MKI was done by the UPA, the last one in 2012. Otoh, the S-400 and the new contract for FGFA with new configuration, new timetable and reduced price are Parrikar's.

So, except for the non-import sector, all other deals are Parrikar's. In that sense, though Modi initiated it, the Rafale deal is also Parrikar's since he was the one who added the new configuration, offsets and MII. He was the one who added industrial production under offsets. Modi had negotiated only for the existing F3+ configuration as flyaway, with no offsets, no industrial production, no MII etc.

As for bullet proof jackets, all the national and international companies that participated flunked trials. So Parrikar made the decision to order 50,000 dated jackets from 2 companies in just a month as an emergency purchase. Right now, only DRDO is developing a new jacket that would match IA's requirement. Similarly, the rifle tender was also withdrawn because all the international companies flunked trials. DRDO claims to have developed a rifle that matches the requirements.

You can't blame Parrikar if the companies themselves flunk trials.

You are being taken for a ride by the anti-French lobby in the Indian media and you are happy to be on that ride because you 'believe' the Rafale is getting a stepmotherly treatment by Parrikar, which is far from the truth. Anybody who has 'seriously' followed the Rafale deal knows that it actually thrives because of Parrikar and not Modi.

MMRCA was canceled because the UPA had introduced very damaging clauses to the deal. Those clauses are now under investigation. And Parrikar didn't like Modi's Rafale deal because it added nothing to the Indian industry and was done without taking into consideration his new DPP-2016.

IAF wanted to expand the old 36 F3+ deal to 80 and Parrikar put them in their place. After that Parrikar introduced 90 more jets to the IAF under his new DPP, gave the industry about $2.5-3B in investments and new technologies. Even the latest proposal for 54 more jets to the IN was Parrikar's. IN had not even proposed that to Parrikar, this was Parrikar's initiative. Now, the 36 jets deal has become 54 jets, 36 for the IAF and 18 for the IN, the media haven't yet told you this, have they?

Parrikar is waiting for the navy to finish and submit their tech report in order to either buy the Rafales from France or MII, all depending on the numbers that the navy needs. Feel different about Parrikar now?

As of today, all defence and non-defence deals are on hold because India has had two major droughts and they are waiting for a good monsoon season. No deal has been signed since April, the start of the fiscal year.

And in reference to this pseudo-potential Raffy deal,
the proof was made at the end of the MMRCA saga
when the GoI discovered that HAL would require so
much more time that in the end labor costs would be
high enough to constitute a sticking point ...

which some now conveniently forget.

8-)
Tay.

The HAL problem was very different. HAL didn't want to invest in automation for Rafale, they wanted to use manpower. Being a PSU, they hire more manpower than necessary. They also wanted to use non-French CNC equipment which would have lead to extra costs and delay in certification.

The cost in acquiring automation would have offset the cost of manpower. But what HAL didn't consider is that automation would have been faster and more efficient than manpower. So HAL planned to introduce three shifts which jacked up costs. All of this could have been fixed during CNC stage at the secretary level.

The MMRCA was canceled because of UPA's bureaucratic procedures where they wanted to restart the L1 procedure after the CNC stage was done. Parrikar found that unacceptable.

Did you know that the 36 aircraft GTG deal and the MMRCA deal were supposed to go hand-in-hand? While Parrikar was trying to deal with MMRCA, Modi had capitulated under IAF pressure for immediate induction of 2 squadrons. This led to friction, but contrary to media reports, Parrikar rose above it and made the Rafale his own by canceling MMRCA, changing the terms of the GTG deal and adding MII to it, basically making the entire deal better.
 
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To all following this convo, let's be blunt :

Our Tejas has the same qualities as Rafale. Although Tejas is in lightweight category, with its range also half compared with Rafale, but in terms of avionics, electronics and firepower it is no less than Rafale,” he said.

idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don't post our articles on other copycat websites http://idrw.org/first-tejas-squadron-to-fly-before-diwali-manohar-parrikar/ .

Anyone who says that with a straight face is either not qualified ( i.e. a mil avia nincompoop )
or lying outright for political reasons.

You pick which, I'm done for now!

Tay.
 
To all following this convo, let's be blunt :

Our Tejas has the same qualities as Rafale. Although Tejas is in lightweight category, with its range also half compared with Rafale, but in terms of avionics, electronics and firepower it is no less than Rafale,” he said.

idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don't post our articles on other copycat websites http://idrw.org/first-tejas-squadron-to-fly-before-diwali-manohar-parrikar/ .

Anyone who says that with a straight face is either not qualified ( i.e. a mil avia nincompoop )
or lying outright for political reasons.

You pick which, I'm done for now!

Tay.

It's for domestic consumption, why are you worried about that? It takes media pressure off of the program.

He has justified the induction of both systems, so it works in your (France's) favour.

Anyway, all leaders of all countries say their stuff is the best. What's wrong with that?
 
^

As we approach the July date for the first squadron of Tejas, expect there to be more 'pushes' and presstitute nonsense.

If Tejas makes a good impression on IAF, one can only hope that another manufacturing line run by Private Sector can get the green signal. 40 Tejas planes rolling out a year by 2020 would be game-changing, and completely eliminate the need for another foreign line apart from Rafale and FGFA.
 
^

As we approach the July date for the first squadron of Tejas, expect there to be more 'pushes' and presstitute nonsense.

If Tejas makes a good impression on IAF, one can only hope that another manufacturing line run by Private Sector can get the green signal. 40 Tejas planes rolling out a year by 2020 would be game-changing, and completely eliminate the need for another foreign line apart from Rafale and FGFA.

:tup::tup::tup:

upload_2016-6-20_8-44-33.png


https://defence.pk/threads/can-grip...xist-in-indian-air-force.435137/#post-8385659
 
For the love of god just do it! THIS (only LCA, Rafale and FGFA inductions from now on with the AMCA in the long run also joining the mix) is undeniably the optimal scenario for both an industry and operational point of view and it seems this is the plan being worked out and then Parrikar comes out and says something that entirely undermines this or we hear nonsensical speculation about a Gripen/F-16/F-18/F-35 purchase.

Ramp up LCA production ASAP ( an additional line run by L&T would be ideal), get the Rafale line set up in India and once the FGFA is fully developed switch the Nasik plant over to churning them out but keep MKIs flowing from it until then ). In 10 years India can have the strongest airforce in Asia and perhaps be only second to the USAF (in terms of outright capabilities and its qualitative edge) if this is followed, why mess about with all the other nonsense???

It really is VERY simple but since when does India "do" simple?
 
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View attachment 311920
Looks like livefist and shiv aroor backing only US and Sweden now.

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Vauban @BON PLAN
@zebra7

Strange how Rafale is omitted or is it the insider view which is being leaked..

Or again yellow journalism..if it's yellow, damn they gt livefist and shiv too... Now that's some serious pulling to color opinions and build support base...

You are mistaken, Rafale is omitted because decision on Rafale is already taken.

This is for the 2nd MMRCA line that is being seriously considered and they represent the 3 100% Make In India offers that is with the GoI.

Of which F18, Grippen and LCA use the same/similar engine.
 

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