Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Abingdonboy]

Sir The Rafale decision will happen soon and if the Mirage 2000 history is any indicator
India will be a BIG customer of the Rafale

All the news suggests that Rafale deal is in the final phase ; the other deals and offers
will Not affect it

At least 54 ( 36 + 18 ) will come if not more

Either 150+ Rafales are bought or 0, there is no middle ground and I think we can all see which scenario is more likely.

 

[raghu85]

What a complete idiot he and every other Indian journalist is (or perhaps they are just paid off by the competition?). Not a single one of these clowns has reported that Dassualt is setting up a production line in India despite this coming straight from the horse's mouth (Trappier).


Every single report I see is still erroneously stating the Rafale deal has been scaled down to 36.

There is nothing new to what Shiv Aroor is stating, it has been repeated again and again in e past year about this so-called "MMRCA 2.0".


@PARIKRAMA you know my views on this bro, I've stated it above. I don't understand why the hell Parrikar is playing these games, he has confirmed himself the Rafale is coming so why is a second MMRCA on the table? It is simply mind blowing how little journalism is being conducted on this matter. Why is no one asking why the IAF could be operating 2 MMRCAs? Why three fighters that failed the IAF's technical criteria are once again being offered? Is the IAF accepting this? How will India secure American fighters when ToT is not on the table and when the end user agreements are not acceptable to the Indian side?

Not one of these questions have been raised let alone answered.

Again, these journalists are either embarrassingly incompetent or have other interests mind. Sometimes it feels like all they are are SAAB/Boeing/LM salesmen.


"award winning" defence blog my a$$

if 2nd mmrca is economical and capable then 1st mmrca ie rafale should be dropped... following rafale route IAF will never achieve 42 squadron level.... rafale damn expensive. ... though 4th gen.... also we don't need 2 mmrca's

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Either 150+ Rafales are bought or 0, there is no middle ground and I think we can all see which scenario is more likely.

No mate there is definitely a twist in the tale

I am sure a US plane is coming -- Modi has spoken about overcoming the hesitations of History

He has to walk the talk now

And Rafale will still happen -- The MII may not happen --
but that did nt happen with Mirage 2000
too

 

[Abingdonboy]

if 2nd mmrca is economical and capable then 1st mmrca ie rafale should be dropped... following rafale route IAF will never achieve 42 squadron level.... rafale damn expensive. ... though 4th gen.... also we don't need 2 mmrca's

1) Rafale being too expensive is a myth that has throughly been discredited on this thread countless times. If it is truly too expensive then the F-18 SH and Gripen are also.
2) the capability gap between the Rafale and every other competing MMRCA (F-16/18/Gripen) is vast and let's not forget that the Rafale and the EFT were the ONLY jets to pass the IAF's technical criteria. Or is this immaterial?

My pal @PARIKRAMA has outlined with impressive detail how the IAF can reach 42,45 and even 50 SQNs by 2025 with the Rafale. There is no need to buy the BS propaganda the media is spouting.

 

[Taygibay]

and let's not forget that the Rafale and the EFT were the ONLY jets to pass the IAF's technical criteria. Or is this immaterial?

For reference, out of 630 points in the IAF's evaluation,
the Typhie got 614, Rafale 613 and none of the rest
gathered 600.

Just sayin', Tay.

 

[Abingdonboy]

No mate there is definitely a twist in the tale

I am sure a US plane is coming -- Modi has spoken about overcoming the hesitations of History

He has to walk the talk now

And Rafale will still happen -- The MII may not happen --
but that did nt happen with Mirage 2000
too

It's not about the hesitations of history but the very real drawbacks of the American offer TODAY. It doesn't make sense from an industrial, strategic or operational perspective to go for American fighters.


To this day Dassualt is the only OEM in the running for a MII line, the US made their offer not long ago and were rebuffed. They effectively spat in the faces of the DM/PM with their pathetic offer(s). Now India would have to wait another 1-2 years before it can sign any major defence deals with the US thanks to their election cycle.

I think the US-Indo relationship will be centered primarily around the maritime domain going forward and even there the US is hardly being forthcoming.

For reference, out of 630 points in the IAF's evaluation,
the Typhie got 614, Rafale 613 and none of the rest
gathered 600.

Just sayin', Tay.

Indeed, but let's just overlook this shall we?

@Stephen Cohen bro, I forgot to add. Anything below 80 fighters is not economically viable for the IAF, the GoI and MoD all know this so anytime you hear about "only" 36/54 Rafales coming you should immediately question the source.

 

[[Bregs]]

well when deal was finalized for 36 aircraft it was more or less clear that more rafales under MII is remote possibility ad now this seems to be the truth as govt is looking for F 16, Gripen or F 18 under MII

Now what purpose 36 are going to serve only defence planners knows best

@Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA

For the love of god just do it! THIS (only LCA, Rafale and FGFA inductions from now on with the AMCA in the long run also joining the mix) is undeniably the optimal scenario for both an industry and operational point of view and it seems this is the plan being worked out and then Parrikar comes out and says something that entirely undermines this or we hear nonsensical speculation about a Gripen/F-16/F-18/F-35 purchase.

Ramp up LCA production ASAP ( an additional line run by L&T would be ideal), get the Rafale line set up in India and once the FGFA is fully developed switch the Nasik plant over to churning them out but keep MKIs flowing from it until then ). In 10 years India can have the strongest airforce in Asia and perhaps be only second to the USAF (in terms of outright capabilities and its qualitative edge) if this is followed, why mess about with all the other nonsense???

It really is VERY simple but since when does India "do" simple?

lol well said bro

 

[Abingdonboy]

well when deal was finalized for 36 aircraft it was more or less clear that more rafales under MII is remote possibility ad now this seems to be the truth as govt is looking for F 16, Gripen or F 18 under MII

Now what purpose 36 are going to serve only defence planners knows best

@Abingdonboy

@PARIKRAMA

The plane that has a chance is the F-18 the other two are LCA killers for sure. And even then the F-18 has next to no chance not just because it itself failed the IAF's evaluations but because the offer from the US/Boeing itself is almost worthless. India has moved on from the point where a decade of screwdriver work on an outdated platform would be in any way attractive to the establishment.

 

[raghu85]

1) Rafale being too expensive is a myth that has throughly been discredited on this thread countless times. If it is truly too expensive then the F-18 SH and Gripen are also.
2) the capability gap between the Rafale and every other competing MMRCA (F-16/18/Gripen) is vast and let's not forget that the Rafale and the EFT were the ONLY jets to pass the IAF's technical criteria. Or is this immaterial?

My pal @PARIKRAMA has outlined with impressive detail how the IAF can reach 42,45 and even 50 SQNs by 2025 with the Rafale. There is no need to buy the BS propaganda the media is spouting.

1) compare rafale with others. .... then you you realise its cost....
2) after got selected dassault refused to oblige the rules tot and responsibility. ... they only wanted to get selected then twist the rules making others idiots. ...
3)they never wanted to transfer technology and now you are telling about MII...
4) tell me honestly how much $$$ billions needed to form 15 squadrons of rafale ,bases support system wrapons.... After that no money will be left with MOD for other programs. ....

 

[[Bregs]]

The plane that has a chance is the F-18 the other two are LCA killers for sure. And even then the F-18 has next to no chance not just because it itself failed the IAF's evaluations but because the offer from the US/Boeing itself is almost worthless. India has moved on from the point where a decade of screwdriver work on an outdated platform would be in any way attractive to the establishment.

what if under political pressure pressure govt buckled and allowed F16-60 plus then that's a sheer waste of time yill now and again a single engine platform to kill Tejas future versions

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/744803145558069252

View attachment 311920
Looks like livefist and shiv aroor backing only US and Sweden now.

@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @MilSpec @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio @anant_s @Vauban @BON PLAN
@zebra7

Strange how Rafale is omitted or is it the insider view which is being leaked..

Or again yellow journalism..if it's yellow, damn they gt livefist and shiv too... Now that's some serious pulling to color opinions and build support base...

What a complete idiot he and every other Indian journalist is (or perhaps they are just paid off by the competition?). Not a single one of these clowns has reported that Dassualt is setting up a production line in India despite this coming straight from the horse's mouth (Trappier).


Every single report I see is still erroneously stating the Rafale deal has been scaled down to 36.

There is nothing new to what Shiv Aroor is stating, it has been repeated again and again in e past year about this so-called "MMRCA 2.0".


@PARIKRAMA you know my views on this bro, I've stated it above. I don't understand why the hell Parrikar is playing these games, he has confirmed himself the Rafale is coming so why is a second MMRCA on the table? It is simply mind blowing how little journalism is being conducted on this matter. Why is no one asking why the IAF could be operating 2 MMRCAs? Why three fighters that failed the IAF's technical criteria are once again being offered? Is the IAF accepting this? How will India secure American fighters when ToT is not on the table and when the end user agreements are not acceptable to the Indian side?

Not one of these questions have been raised let alone answered.

Again, these journalists are either embarrassingly incompetent or have other interests mind. Sometimes it feels like all they are are SAAB/Boeing/LM salesmen.


"award winning" defence blog my a$$

The new MRCA lines have nothing to do with Rafale. GoI is playing politics with the new lines. Rafale MII will happen.

 

[Abingdonboy]

1) compare rafale with others. .... then you you realise its cost....
2) after got selected dassault refused to oblige the rules tot and responsibility. ... they only wanted to get selected then twist the rules making others idiots. ...
3)they never wanted to transfer technology and now you are telling about MII...
4) tell me honestly how much $$$ billions needed to form 15 squadrons of rafale ,bases support system wrapons.... After that no money will be left with MOD for other programs. ....

The onus is on you to provide the comparative costs of the different fighters as it has been discussed in detail here with cold hard logic and the facts are for all to see. If you honestly believe that the Rafale is significantly more expensive than the F-18 or even F-16 then you are deluding yourself.

As for the rest, I can't be bothered to go down that rabbit hole for the nth time.

 

[randomradio]

Shiv was denied a back seat for a Rafale test and since he is constantly criticizing.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2011/02/first-hand-flying-dassault-rafale.html

 

[Abingdonboy]

There is a very good chance that number of Rafales that would be inducted would be 36 off shelf + 90 MII + Whatever number would be brought for Naval carriers (Vishal, and if Rafale could fly from it then Vikrant), and the rest of the requirement would be filled by F-16 MII .

See it is impossible that USA would not have insisted on India buying some of its defence equipment for providing support at all those international forums.




Neither Gripen nor F-16 are as capable as Rafale, and if India has to buys any of them, it would be F-16 and that purchase would be made for political reasons, rather than pure technical or financial one.

India is going to go for the exact same plane the PAF flies for decades? Really? This alone makes the deal untenable.

NOT necessarily.

If government makes a political decision consciously, then it could cap F-16 numbers at minimum possible to placate US MIC, and still fill up rest with Tejas mk1/2.

If these idiots engage in "placating" games they'll end up killing the LCA program with the F-16. NOTHING is worth that price. The LCA is essential for India's future, the F-16 is a relic of the past and India has no need of it.


If the GoI is so desperate to placate the US MIC then go for a C-130XJ line in India or a MQ-4C purchase or any number of products that would actually be useful to India and wouldn't cause terminal damage to India's own fledgling military industry.

what if under political pressure pressure govt buckled and allowed F16-60 plus then that's a sheer waste of time yill now and again a single engine platform to kill Tejas future versions

Then they will be traitors, as simple as that.

 

[proud_indian]

'Make in India' pitch to sell Swedish fighter for air force

Sujan Dutta

Mikael OlssonA prototype of the Gripen E in the hangar of the company's Linkoping assembly plant.Pictures by Sujan Dutta​

March 26: The uncertainty over India's negotiations with France for the Rafale fighter aircraft and the air force's desperation to stall the depletion of its combat fleet have prompted global aviation majors to dovetail their planes into Prime Minister Narendra Modi's "Make in India" campaign.

After US companies Lockheed Martin and Boeing, Swedish firm Saab has now said that it is willing to transfer technology and set up a new company with an Indian partner to make its latest fighter aircraft, the Gripen E, in India. The Gripen E is being built block-by-block and is slated to roll out of its production assembly in May this year.

"Sweden is looking for a market. India is looking for technology. The Gripen E can be the frontline multi-role fighter made in India," said Saab's technical director and product manager for the aircraft, Gideon Sines, to a group of Indian journalists visiting the manufacturing facilities in Sweden. The visit was sponsored by Saab.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160327/jsp/nation/story_76679.jsp

https://twitter.com/x/status/732869516015894528

https://twitter.com/x/status/732838097931620352

https://twitter.com/x/status/732866772454498304

https://twitter.com/x/status/732472196245774336

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