Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Prajapati]

France, India Disagree Over Key Rafale Contract Issue | Defense content from Aviation Week

WOW. This article is damning. Thank you for highlighting relevant points. This caught my eye,

............but Dassault’s guarantee terms—which are limited to the first 18 aircraft—are inadequate...

In short Dassault is not even providing adequate guarantees for Aircraft BUILT IN FRANCE

 

[sancho]

WOW. This article is damning. Thank you for highlighting relevant points. This caught my eye,

............but Dassault’s guarantee terms—which are limited to the first 18 aircraft—are inadequate...

In short Dassault is not even providing adequate guarantees for Aircraft BUILT IN FRANCE

Not really, they are providing guarantees only for the 18 and not for the total of 126 as rules of the tender require guarantees for the full order.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho

In the article that you have posted there is a line that caught my attention

Indian government has insisted that HAL build the aircraft. The original manufacturers of the Su-30MKI and Jaguar were not asked for similar guarantees.

So what is our arrangement in case of Su 30mki with the Russians

 

[sancho]

@sancho

In the article that you have posted there is a line that caught my attention

Indian government has insisted that HAL build the aircraft. The original manufacturers of the Su-30MKI and Jaguar were not asked for similar guarantees.

So what is our arrangement in case of Su 30mki with the Russians

Different times, different situation. Back then we were in no position to demand any liabilities and we had to pay for any mistakes of the vendors on our own. Things have changed and the Hawk, Scorpene or even the naval gun deals shows, that today we demand more in return for the money we spend and that vendors are ready to comply.

 

[Prajapati]

Not really, they are providing guarantees only for the 18 and not for the total of 126 as rules of the tender require guarantees for the full order.

That seems to be correct. HAL is trying to ensure Dassault does the relevant Tech. Transfer and not hold out on critical tech or processes.

If history is any guide, the french will provide incomplete data and info and then blame the HAL for being "stupid" and "incompetent" for the delay. They will then demand additional "consultation charges" for "helping" HAL complete the aircraft's in India. HAL is wise to insist on the guarantees.

Dassault must see its dream of black mailing more money melt away. Not a happy picture I bet

 

[sancho]

HAL is wise to insist on the guarantees.

It's not HAL that is insisting on them, but IAF and the MoD, because we have bad experience with foreign vendors not supporting the licence production deals as agreed initially and this performance guarantee as well as liability clause is a safeguard for them that this doesn't happen in other projects. That's why these kind of clauses were implemented in the DPP2006 and onwards, the same DDP that was the base for the Hawk trainer RFP and licence production and that's still the best example to show that this feature worked!

 

[Razia Sultana]

I hope we scrap the deal. We a poor nation can't afford such expensive toys. better to invest in good relationship with china. china is the real threat.

Do you remember Panchsheel and Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai.

 

[Echo_419]

That seems to be correct. HAL is trying to ensure Dassault does the relevant Tech. Transfer and not hold out on critical tech or processes.

If history is any guide, the french will provide incomplete data and info and then blame the HAL for being "stupid" and "incompetent" for the delay. They will then demand additional "consultation charges" for "helping" HAL complete the aircraft's in India. HAL is wise to insist on the guarantees.

Dassault must see its dream of black mailing more money melt away. Not a happy picture I bet

You maybe right on that one but the question remains why wasn't this requirement included in the RFP

 

[Prajapati]

You maybe right on that one but the question remains why wasn't this requirement included in the RFP

The article says otherwise,

According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work.

 

[Echo_419]

The article says otherwise,

According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work.

Then we need to tell the french to comply with the RFP Requirements or go Fook themselves

 

[flamer84]

Looks like Egypt just became the first customer for the Rafale.

 

[Prajapati]

Looks like Egypt just became the first customer for the Rafale.

Good for the French ...... how much are you paying per pop ?

 

[flamer84]

Good for the French ...... how much are you paying per pop ?

Me ? I could barely afford the Dacia i bought a while ago.Can't really get a Rafale altough it would come in handy.

The Egyptians ? From what i've read, somewhere in the 5 billion + euros range for 24 fighters,missiles and 1 FREMM.

 

[Agent_47]

It's not HAL that is insisting on them, but IAF and the MoD, because we have bad experience with foreign vendors not supporting the licence production deals as agreed initially and this performance guarantee as well as liability clause is a safeguard for them that this doesn't happen in other projects. That's why these kind of clauses were implemented in the DPP2006 and onwards, the same DDP that was the base for the Hawk trainer RFP and licence production and that's still the best example to show that this feature worked!

In France Dassault could be blaming DCNS for messing with Indians in the scorpion deal ! Where all the liability shit started.

 

[sancho]

Looks like Egypt just became the first customer for the Rafale.

News reports hint in that direction, but so far it doesn't effect a possible Indian deal, since it seems that they get only 3 Rafales before 2018 and those will be diverted from French orders. That means that still 18 x Rafales will be available for an export customer between the end of 2016 and the end of 2017, be it for Qatar or India.

In France Dassault could be blaming DCNS for messing with Indians in the scorpion deal ! Where all the liability shit started.

No, we implemented the liability clause with the Defence Procurement Procedure in 2006, so even before we sent out the RFP of the MMRCA. And the Scorpene issue is a different case, because the delays are caused from our side too.