Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[PARIKRAMA]

Well lets be clear a Fremm and 24 rafales packaged in soft loans is not a big deal at all.. its more of the small need to run the line longer with little fodder which made french sale to Egypt.

MMRCA loss whether france likes or not will hit Dassault harder simply bcz after attaining L1 and unable to execute the contract finalisation especially with reasons cited in media which are against the RFP definitely i agree with @Abingdonboy heads would roll...

My only contention is why Dassault is so insistent? Whats the strategy behind this posturing? Are they oki with losing out MMRCA? Or there is more than what meets our eyes?

 

[possumlot]

That wiki entry is wrong, the P-17s cost about $800 million a piece. And $230 million is NOT the price offered to India for the Rafale.

Slight correction from me,

Wiki is almost always wrong. Here are the actual prices as per Indian parliament and CAG.

Project 17, Shivalik class, 6,200 Tons

INR 8101 Crores for 3 Ships, This translates to 1.3 Billion $ or 435 Million $ Per SHIP.

Talwar Class, 4,000 TOns

INR 5,114 Crores for 3 Ships, This translates to 825 Million $ or 275 million $ PER SHIP

 

[Agent_47]

Slight correct from me,

Wiki is almost always wrong. Here are the actual prices as per Indian parliament and CAG.

Project 17, Shivalik class, 6,200 Tons

INR 8101 Crores for 3 Ships, This translates to 1.3 Billion $ or 435 Million $ Per SHIP.

Talwar Class, 4,000 TOns

INR 5,114 Crores for 3 Ships, This translates to 825 Million $ or 275 million $ PER SHIP

Source please.
Both were subject to cost hike.

 

[possumlot]

Source please.
Both were subject to cost hike.

Why don't you produce source to show cost hike ?

Cabinet nod for purchase of warships - The Hindu

"The CCS approved the purchase of three Russian frigates to be built to Indian specifications at a cost of Rs. 5,114 crore."

Rs 3L cr plan to boost India's naval might - The Times of India

This will follow the three 6,200-tonne stealth frigates built at MDL for Rs 8,101 crore, INS Shivalik, INS Satpura and INS Sahyadri

 

[Taygibay]

@Stephen Cohen

I'll offer a tentative temporary answer, mate. The total contract is for 5.2B Euros.
Out of this, the FREMM frigate takes a decent chunk for DCNS, around 610 M Euros since it is a French one maybe a tad more. MBDA gets a side contract, rather big, for the Aster 15 missiles also found on Horizon ships and UK type 45 destroyers but also around 400M Euros for ground based anti-air missiles it seems.
Etienne Lacroix group gets a small bit too as present on both the vessel and the aircrafts ( EW ).

The remainder ( 3.6/3.8 B ) is split between Dassault, as well as SAGEM for the AASM. We do know that it will comprise 18 two-seaters and 6 single seaters. The first 3 to be delivered in August 3 more of the same by next summer and the rest by 2017. SCALPs in Black Shaheen version ( cruise missiles ) are apparently included but I'm not 100% positive on that ( i.e. no direct proof ).
The details can hardly be defined further before the official signing on Monday.

As such, the price per bird seems to be below 2x that of the plane itself which is quite normal in such cases as that will include not only spare parts but pilot training. No more than 220 -230 M each with all the priors included. This is not so high as the Egyptians asked for nearly immediate delivery as found above. The same goes for financing. As France backs most of the loan, the government would not make it cheap or cheaper on top of that, if you see the idea.
Difficulties in defining the perimeter of included services don't allow me to provide a better assessment for now.

Halloweene who has, hum ... say multi-institutional links/access to Dassault , will give you a much better answer but even him may not be at liberty to do so before Monday's IDEX signing.

I hope it helps.
Good day all, Tay.

 

[sancho]

MMRCA loss whether france likes or not will hit Dassault harder simply bcz after attaining L1 and unable to execute the contract finalisation especially with reasons cited in media which are against the RFP definitely i agree with @Abingdonboy heads would roll...

Actually it would hit only "France", not Dassault. Fot Dassault it would be "just" another disappointement after Switzerland, Brazil and the still not cleared deals in the UAE and Qatar, which both are under negotiation for at least as long as they do it in India. The main point however, that Dassault does fine even without exports and just with the French Rafale order. For the French government, the Forces and even large parts of the French industry, any export is a relief. Franche gets some relief for the defence budget, by diverting some of their orders now and maybe adding them in future again, just as Sagem now gets more orders for AASM and can extend it's production line. While the French forces surely would love to see UAE, Qatar or India to buy the Rafale and fund upgrades they also might be able to use, but all this is obviously not important for Dassault.

My only contention is why Dassault is so insistent? Whats the strategy behind this posturing? Are they oki with losing out MMRCA? Or there is more than what meets our eyes?

It this case, it their relation to Reliance that is the key for the problem. Since they teamed up with them, they started to deviate from the rules. First it was the made up workshare issue, to divert more work to RIL and when they realized that it doesn't work, they tried it with the liability clause. They are taking big risks, to gain more benefits through and for RIL.

=>

...Dassault’s response to the RFP was influenced by a planned partnership with Reliance Industries, a $75 billion private-sector energy-based conglomerate that planned to expand into aerospace and defense. Reliance would have performed much of the manufacturing work on the locally built Rafales in new-build facilities...

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 21

 

[Hindustani78]

Dassault "confident" of Rafale deal with India - The Economic Times
By PTI | 13 Feb, 2015, 11.08PM IST

PARIS: French defence company Dassault Aviation today said it was "very confident" that three years of talks with India on the sale of 126 Rafales worth 12 billion euros would result in a deal.

Eric Trappier, chief executive of Dassault Aviation which manufactures Rafale, in an interview with BFM television, said talks were slow as India wanted some of the jets manufactured at home in a bid to boost defence manufacturing, meaning the details of every nut and bolt had to be agreed upon.

The negotiations have got into trouble recently, leading to delay in finalisation of the contract for supply of 126 fighter planes.

 

[UKBengali]

I don't think being unable to clinch the single largest fighter order in modern history would be good publicity for Dassualt in any way shape or form, I'd expect some serious heads to roll in Dassualt if they should fail to get the MMRCA clinched.

The Egyptian deal changes everything.

Now that the French have managed to sell to Egypt, then the market is open to them sell more to oil-rich GCC states. If a poor country like Egypt is willing to pay top dollar for Rafale, then the GCC countries would also be willing to pay for sizeble number of Rafales.

India has lost it's one trump card with the French now - they either buy the fighters on French dictated terms or not at all.

 

[Hindustani78]

The Egyptian deal changes everything.

Now that the French have managed to sell to Egypt, then the market is open to them sell more to oil-rich GCC states. If a poor country like Egypt is willing to pay top dollar for Rafale, then the GCC countries would also be willing to pay for sizeble number of Rafales.

India has lost it's one trump card with the French now - they either buy the fighters on French dictated terms or not at all.

I think here the Rafale deal with Egypt is more related to the relations and influence of NATO and Russia around Middle East.

French area of influence is there in Maghrib and there Egypt is the heavy weight. Recent visit of President Putin to Egypt was like an eye opener for France and NATO. Russian Federation is trying to expand its influence in Middle East and Latin America.

The French Deal with Egypt is like to convince Indian Government about the technology transfer.

 

[possumlot]

It this case, it their relation to Reliance that is the key for the problem. Since they teamed up with them, they started to deviate from the rules. First it was the made up workshare issue, to divert more work to RIL and when they realized that it doesn't work, they tried it with the liability clause. They are taking big risks, to gain more benefits through and for RIL.
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 21

Its silly to assume Dassault is batting for RIL. Dassault don't give a $hit about RIL.

Dassault wanted RIL so that they could bypass the technology transfer requirement and RIL was ready to play along by assembling parts and calling it "indigenous manufacturing".

HAL refuses to play ball. HAL has insisted on the technology transfer and also gurantees to ensure that ON TIME.

Its as simple as that.

The Egyptian deal changes everything.

Now that the French have managed to sell to Egypt, then the market is open to them sell more to oil-rich GCC states. If a poor country like Egypt is willing to pay top dollar for Rafale, then the GCC countries would also be willing to pay for sizeble number of Rafales.

India has lost it's one trump card with the French now - they either buy the fighters on French dictated terms or not at all.

The Egyptian deal means NOTHING to India. The RFP means EVERYTHING.

It might mean something to Dassault, but its idotic to think Indian contracts based on published RFP and submitted Proposals are dictated by whims and fancies of global trade.

 

[Hindustani78]

The Egyptian deal means NOTHING to India. The RFP means EVERYTHING.

It might mean something to Dassault, but its idotic to think Indian contracts based on published RFP and submitted Proposals are dictated by whims and fancies of global trade.

I think Egyptian Rafale has do more with the Middle East situation.

RFP is more about spares as the problem is being seen even in the Mirage 2000 upgradation.

 

[possumlot]

I think Egyptian Rafale has do more with the Middle East situation.

RFP is more about spares as the problem is being seen even in the Mirage 2000 upgradation.

RFP is Request For Proposal for the MMRCA contract. It specifies everything required in the contract.

 

[Hindustani78]

RFP is Request For Proposal for the MMRCA contract. It specifies everything required in the contract.

i am aware what RPF stands for.

According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work. “The offer of the French firm for technology transfer is compliant to the requirements specified in the RFP,”

Technology transfer includes spares.

 

[possumlot]

i am aware what RPF stands for.

According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work. “The offer of the French firm for technology transfer is compliant to the requirements specified in the RFP,”

Technology transfer includes spares.

You do realise that "spares" as just REPEAT parts of the Aircraft. right ? Those with lower MTBF.

 

[UKBengali]

The Egyptian deal means NOTHING to India. The RFP means EVERYTHING.

It might mean something to Dassault, but its idotic to think Indian contracts based on published RFP and submitted Proposals are dictated by whims and fancies of global trade.

It means India has zero bargaining power.

Buy on French terms are don't buy at all. France has other markets for Rafale now.