Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Echo_419]

Look, the aircraft is undoubtedly good but the deal stinks to the high heavens. If MoD accepted the French position now, they are pretty much bending over & offering up their behinds. Dealing with the French sucks.

The french have met their match & the New MOD will never agree to anything which puts India at a disadvantage

MKI is cheaper and almost 90% of it is built in India. Best case scenario for Rafale is that 50% will be built in India and its will be twice as Expensive.



Hence the urgent need to start putting serious money into development.



That is how it works in the rest of the world. Know how is gained by DOING RESEARCH which COST MONEY. EXPERIENCE is gained by actually doing Development . ...... both are not Mana from heaven.

We are NOT required to do everything alone, Knowledge sharing and buying of know know how, setting up now research, joint funding of research are all standard parts of indigenous development. That is how the rest of the worlds does it too. You either buy the technology or you STEAL the technology or your develop the tech on your own.

Aerospace Industries are set up when someone gives them MONEY to delivery aerospace stuff we have enough critical mass to do pretty much anything provide money is made available.



Prime Idea behind MMRCA is to get New toys to the IAF. Secondary idea is to camouflage it as some sort of Know-how transfer to soften the blow. Let us not start believing our own propaganda or IAF spin.



NOPE, its is NOT the ONLY choice we have, Not by a long shot. Not by any intelligent assessment.



The deal is going kaput, ................ because Dassault has no intention of handing over their tech over to us for that price, despite what the RFP says.

Everything else is just hogwash.

MKI may seem to cost a little less than Rafael at this moment but in the long run factoring in the Maintenance cost,the french plane will cost less,Not to forget MKI is a Air superiority fighter & French one is a Multirole one & most importantly the IAF knows more than you & me and they insist on this deal so it must be the right option.

 

[Bang Galore]

Very true, no matter how good the Rafale is, the important part of the tender is that we set the rules and are not dependent anymore on what foreign manufacturers or countries are dictating us. And all Indian officials for the last 2 years made it clear, that there is no going back from the RFP, no matter how hard Dassault tries.
The new DM can't do it anyway after his pretty clear statements from December and January, he gave the ball to Dassault and they gave their answer. It's now on the DM to take a proper decision!

Seems the latest remarks indicate that the French are simply not interested. They are not stupid not to understand what they are doing. They almost seem to be daring the GoI. Inexplicable behaviour really.

 

[Prajapati]

MKI may seem to cost a little less than Rafael at this moment but in the long run factoring in the Maintenance cost,the french plane will cost less,Not to forget MKI is a Air superiority fighter & French one is a Multirole one & most importantly the IAF knows more than you & me and they insist on this deal so it must be the right option.

Sure IAF knows more than me about qualifying Aircraft's and waging an Air battle. Simple matter is that India cannot afford their choice of aircraft. Time for them to make a more informed choice .... and maybe act a bit more maturely. I hope they have a plan B in place.

The GoI knows more about what is best for India than the IAF, so if they scrap the deal, that too must be the right choice.

Seems the latest remarks indicate that the French are simply not interested. They are not stupid not to understand what they are doing. They almost seeming to be daring the GoI. Inexplicable behaviour really.

French are just setting up India to take the blame for the deal's failure. They are preparing to play Chicken. Chicken (game theory) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or walk away if need be.

If they loose this deal, the French will have to work harder in any other markets to regain their credibility.

 

[Bang Galore]

If they loose this deal, the French will have to work harder in any other markets to regain their credibility.

The French would have no credibility in India especially adding this to the Scorpene & M2k upgrade deals, it will have to be a very brave RM who would think of offering them any major contracts.

 

[Prajapati]

The French would have no credibility in India especially adding this to the Scorpene & M2k upgrade deals, it will have to be a very brave RM who would think of offering them any major contracts.

I suspect the M2K deal was the IAF paying off Dsssault for making Rafale as L1. Just one of those doubts that refuses to go away.

Rusians have very little credibility too (mig, Viki), so do the Americans. Best credibility is a Strong Legal Contract

 

[Abingdonboy]

Ploughing 100% of the money back into India is a MUCH BETTER deal. No ?

100%???!! 100%?!!!

Are you out of your mind? What do you think would compel Sukhoi to engage in this kind of charity where HAL get to churn out an unlimited number of MKIs without paying a single cent to the Russians who own all the IPRs of the MKI?

For the Su 30 MKI India is Force to buy only Alloys for the body and engine, EVERYTHING else is made in India, so yes I can live with that.

And what do you think the ToT with the MMRCA competition is all about?

Not to mention its a LOT Cheaper and gives a HUGE BOOST to our own Indigenous development. THAT is Priceless.

Cheaper to buy upfront (even then the Super MKIs are going to be costing the IAF close to the cost of s Rafale) but not cheaper to maintain over their life span.

Su 30 MKI availability is Low due to the fact that IAF does not bother stockpiling spare parts. IAF starts doing that, the availability goes up to 80%. That was also indirectly confirmed by Parrikar.

For you to actually think Russian products can compete with the reliability of their Western counterparts is beyond naive. The IAF could stockpile all the spares in the world but that wouldn't change the fact that Russian products (even the MKI) are more unreliable, harder to keep airworthy and with shorter lifespans.

IAF has been pushing for a new toy for ages, its a shame they won't be getting one. Time for them to start streamlining their own operations to improve efficiency and focus on indigenous toys. They don't like it ? Too bad, they better learn to live with it.

The IAF has been "pushing" for "new toys" because their "old toys" (MiG-21/27) have been falling out of the skies for decades now.

The LCA has only just about achieved the standard that makes it a worthy replacement as far as the IAF is concerned. Blaming the IAF for this mess isn't a legitimate stance.

MKI is cheaper and almost 90% of it is built in India. Best case scenario for Rafale is that 50% will be built in India and its will be twice as Expensive.

Like I said, cheaper upfront but so what? This is facade, there is a reason that the Russians have started to lose out time and time again in competitions now that the Indian forces take into account life cycle costs.

Anyway you clearly don't know how the MMRCA is structured and the agreements that will take place if it is signed. As per the RFP the first SQD (around 18 aircraft) will be delivered off the shelf from the foreign manufacturer (Dassualt in this case) but every subsequent batch will be made in India starting with knocked down kits, then semi knocked down kits and so on until the Rafale is being built in India with raw materials sourced from India. If you want to pull the 90% out of thin air for the MKI then the Rafale would match it along with coming with 50% offsets and ToT of some critical tech (AESA radars and cutting edge EW systems).


Nothing you have said makes a compelling case for more MKIs nor diverting some funds to the LCA as @sancho said, simply throwing money at that problem won't necessarily solve it and anyway most of the issues have been addressed and the IAF is ready to accept deliveries.

Sure IAF knows more than me about qualifying Aircraft's and waging an Air battle. Simple matter is that India cannot afford their choice of aircraft. Time for them to make a more informed choice .... and maybe act a bit more maturely. I hope they have a plan B in place.

Time to act a bit more maturely? What nonsense are you talking now? The IAF have not acted in a immature fashion in anyway, this is a grossly inaccurate and, frankly, stupid statement. "India can't afford their choice of aircraft"? Based on what? Have you seen the MoD's defence budgets for the next 30 years so you can make such a grand statement? If the IAF can't afford the Rafale then they certainly can't afford another 126-200 MKIs (which is what you are prescribing). You have got a certain line of thinking into your head and you need to snap out of it because you are just plain wrong.

I suspect the M2K deal was the IAF paying off Dsssault for making Rafale as L1. Just one of those doubts that refuses to go away.

Take your slanderous and unsubstantiated comments elsewhere.

Seems the latest remarks indicate that the French are simply not interested. They are not stupid not to understand what they are doing. They almost seeming to be daring the GoI. Inexplicable behaviour really.

Indeed, this doesn't seem like the actions of a profit-maximising company but at the same time I think we all have to admit we are working off second and and inherently imperfect information. There could be a lot going on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of.

 

[sancho]

Seems the latest remarks indicate that the French are simply not interested. They are not stupid not to understand what they are doing. They almost seem to be daring the GoI. Inexplicable behaviour really.

I still differ between "the French" including the government and the rest of their industry and Dassault, since the problem clearly is based only at Dassault. But yes, it's gone far beyond any rational and we have to take a decision now after wasting 3 years. More than disappointing, but that's on them.

 

[Bang Galore]

I still differ between "the French" including the government and the rest of their industry and Dassault, since the problem clearly is based only at Dassault. But yes, it's gone far beyond any rational and we have to take a decision now after wasting 3 years. More than disappointing, but that's on them.

Since the French MoD supported Dassault, I think it has gone beyond just one company. If this deal dies, I think there is every possibility of a chilling effect against the French in other deals too.

 

[sancho]

Since the French MoD supported Dassault, I think it has gone beyond just one company. If this deal dies, I think there is every possibility of a chilling effect against the French in other deals too.

Which again is too simple, this was the first statement on that and that's only aimed on Dassault. The French industry however is far more than Dassault and we have way more links with them, which is why France is the 3rd biggest importer of arms and systems for India. Thales with avionics, Turbomeca or Snecma with engines, MBDA with weapons, Eurocopter with helicopter, Airbus with aircrafts, DCNS with subs, LPDs or tankers, Nexter with howitzers..., the list is long and the relation deep.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Thales : We Are Already Culturally Indian, Sharing Knowledge, Technologies and Expertise with the Local Industry for Years

[...] In July 2011, Thales and Dassault Aviation signed a contract for the upgrade of the Indian Air Force’s Mirage 2000 fleet.[...] Thales is on time with the contractual delivery calendar. Considering each step has been undertaken in strict accordance with the terms of the contract, IAF is extremely satisfied. The next major milestone will be the certification by IAF at the end of 2015.
The serial kits production has now begun and the first kit has been approved. Considering these kits will be fitted onto the aircraft at HAL, the support has started for the fifth aircraft. Additionally, the development of the FOC standard, integrating indigenous equipment, has begun. [...]

We Are Already Culturally Indian, Sharing Knowledge, Technologies and Expertise with the Local Industry for Years

Since the French MoD supported Dassault, I think it has gone beyond just one company. If this deal dies, I think there is every possibility of a chilling effect against the French in other deals too.

France is bigger than Dassualt and India has a LOT more interest in Franch defence deals beyond the Rafale

https://twitter.com/x/status/565488660645019648

 

[Prajapati]

100%???!! 100%?!!!
Are you out of your mind? What do you think would compel Sukhoi to engage in this kind of charity where HAL get to churn out an unlimited number of MKIs without paying a single cent to the Russians who own all the IPRs of the MKI?

And what do you think the ToT with the MMRCA competition is all about?

100% of LCA design. 90% of MKI by production. 50% of MMRCA.

Cheaper to buy upfront (even then the Super MKIs are going to be costing the IAF close to the cost of s Rafale) but not cheaper to maintain over their life span.

Pure Speculation. Kindly provide MTBF of both

For you to actually think Russian products can compete with the reliability of their Western counterparts is beyond naive. The IAF could stockpile all the spares in the world but that wouldn't change the fact that Russian products (even the MKI) are more unreliable, harder to keep airworthy and with shorter lifespans.

Again pure speculation. Kindly provide MTBF of Russian and "western" parts. As a matter of fact, Russian products are KNOWN for their ruggedness and Ease of Maintenance. "Western" don't even get close without their Air conditioned hangars.

The IAF has been "pushing" for "new toys" because their "old toys" (MiG-21/27) have been falling out of the skies for decades now.

Then maybe IAF should better maintain its Mig

The LCA has only just about achieved the standard that makes it a worthy replacement as far as the IAF is concerned. Blaming the IAF for this mess isn't a legitimate stance.

Consider the lack of support from IAF, the blame is perfectly justified.

Like I said, cheaper upfront but so what? This is facade, there is a reason that the Russians have started to lose out time and time again in competitions now that the Indian forces take into account life cycle costs.

Prove it ........... fact is, you cant. Its pure speculation. Russian parts are WAY CHEAPER than western parts

Anyway you clearly don't know how the MMRCA is structured and the agreements that will take place if it is signed. As per the RFP the first SQD (around 18 aircraft) will be delivered off the shelf from the foreign manufacturer (Dassualt in this case) but every subsequent batch will be made in India starting with knocked down kits, then semi knocked down kits and so on until the Rafale is being built in India with raw materials sourced from India. If you want to pull the 90% out of thin air for the MKI then the Rafale would match it along with coming with 50% offsets and ToT of some critical tech (AESA radars and cutting edge EW systems).

This foolish expectation is precisely why MMRCA deal will NEVER get signed.

Nothing you have said makes a compelling case for more MKIs nor diverting some funds to the LCA as @sancho said, simply throwing money at that problem won't necessarily solve it and anyway most of the issues have been addressed and the IAF is ready to accept deliveries.

Good for IAF. Now they can practice smiling when the receive the LCA. Just to appear like good sports.

Time to act a bit more maturely? What nonsense are you talking now? The IAF have not acted in a immature fashion in anyway, this is a grossly inaccurate and, frankly, stupid statement. "India can't afford their choice of aircraft"? Based on what? Have you seen the MoD's defence budgets for the next 30 years so you can make such a grand statement? If the IAF can't afford the Rafale then they certainly can't afford another 126-200 MKIs (which is what you are prescribing). You have got a certain line of thinking into your head and you need to snap out of it because you are just plain wrong.

IAF lack of maturity is already established. By delaying its every purchase, by not standing up to the MoD, by its POOR maintenance of its aircrafts, poorer training due to lack of sufficient trainer jets, disinterest in LCA etc. ...... Irrational admiration cannot substitute cold facts. MKI & LCA remains cheaper than Rafale's. Time for IAF to have plan B.

Indeed, this doesn't seem like the actions of a profit-maximising company but at the same time I think we all have to admit we are working off second and and inherently imperfect information. There could be a lot going on behind the scenes that we aren't aware of.

There is no information excepted educated guesses.

 

[帅的一匹]

It is NOT about the money ie there is no haggling over price

It is about responsibility ; if Dassault does not take FULL responsibility
then the whole programme comes to a halt with the first problem in a
Made in India - Rafale

And Dassault can take care of QA/ QC issues with
proper transfer of know how and technology to India

Then we will be able to make perfect planes

BUT Dassault is worried about HAL 's abilities and WE are worried that
Dassault will wash off its hands once HAL starts manufacturing planes in India

No one dares to take such responsibility unless insane, In terms of the efficiency and organizational chaos in India.

You are asking French to do the impossible. India shall have some self-knowledge at least.

From Chinese perspective, your requirement is logical weird.

It just postpone the time that you can get Rafael, and dampen your national security. 99% of Indian officers will be kicked out as rubbish in China as they do nothing.

That's why I never perceive India as a threat.

 

[micky]

MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions


Dassault Rafale
by Pinaki Bhattacharya
French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters.
A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP. The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media. The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to “the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault’s competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them”.
A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015.
Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to ‘stick to the RFP’.

 

[Prajapati]

MMRCA Deal: Dassault Confirming to Indian RFP Conditions


Dassault Rafale
by Pinaki Bhattacharya
French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault is confirming to conditions laid down in the original request for proposals (RFP) in its conduct of negotiations with the contract negotiations committee (CNC) of the Indian MoD over the sale of 126 Rafale fighters.
A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officer in the know of things told Defenseworld.net Delhi correspondent that negotiations have so far been within the boundaries of the RFP. The aircraft being discussed to be purchased is what was tested by the IAF and not a later model as reported by various media. The officer who did not wish to be quoted said that a good part of the negotiations have been completed including a work-share agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.
Responding to a question, the official explained that the delay in conclusion of the contract was due to “the CNC being sensitised about issues by various external sources, including Dassault’s competitors, and the former seeking clarifications for them”.
A fresh target time frame for the completion of the negotiations has been set for March-April of 2015.
Various reports in the past have noted that Dassault was deviating from the RFP conditions and that the MoD had informed the French company to ‘stick to the RFP’.

IF Dassault was confirming to the RFP there would have been no need for the MOD to ask Dassault to stick to the RFP. You can hardly expect Dassault to claim otherwise.

 

[sancho]

France, India Disagree Over Key Rafale Contract Issue

After months of seeing Dassault Aviation being browbeaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide India with Rafale fighter jets never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India at state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL). However, a recent senior adviser to HAL’s management tells Aviation Week that guaranteeing HAL’s work is not the issue, but that the French are being “rigid” and refusing to stand behind the integrity of the design...

...But even as a French official in India insists that “everything is at its normal pace,” Indian officials are stoking speculation that the acquisition process could be delayed again, and that India could choose to acquire more Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters as an alternative to the Rafale.
Moreover, a retired senior Indian military officer who was involved in the drafting of the original RFP and has been a senior advisor to HAL, tells Aviation Week that “the French don’t want to be accountable in any way. The original equipment manufacturer [OEM] has to stand guarantee with respect to design and integrity of design. The French are trying to get away from the OEM’s responsibility.” He added that the defense ministry would eventually have to choose between the Rafale and the Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), a HAL-developed variant of the Sukhoi T-50...

...The Indian defense ministry is complaining about Dassault’s alleged unwillingness to guarantee the performance of the HAL-built aircraft. According to Indian officials, the original RFP required bidders to transfer technology for production to HAL as well as provide a warranty for HAL’s work. “The offer of the French firm for technology transfer is compliant to the requirements specified in the RFP,” the minister said, but Dassault’s guarantee terms—which are limited to the first 18 aircraft—are inadequate...

...Dassault’s response to the RFP was influenced by a planned partnership with Reliance Industries, a $75 billion private-sector energy-based conglomerate that planned to expand into aerospace and defense. Reliance would have performed much of the manufacturing work on the locally built Rafales in new-build facilities...

France, India Disagree Over Key Rafale Contract Issue | Defense content from Aviation Week