Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Major Shaitan Singh]

Can ground crew look 'cool'? Yes, they can.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Why Dassault does not want to take responsibility of HAL produced fighters

As per the initial plans, the air force was to receive its first aircraft within three years of a contract signature, and all 126 fighters were to be delivered within 11 years. If Dassault concludes the Rafale contract this year, the air force would receive the first of 18 “fly-away” aircraft in 2018, and the last of 108 aircraft built by HAL in 2026. The state-owned airframer’s track record, however, suggests that it will complete Rafale deliveries only by 2029-2030.

Source: Exceprt from FlightGlobal

This is the reason as Dassault clearly feels HAL can never adhere to time frame..

 

[PARIKRAMA]

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale

After months of watching Dassault Aviation being brow-beaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India.

“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”

Speaking to reporters during an annual media address Feb. 9 in Paris, France's arms procurement chief said the €10.2-billion ($12 billion) agreement – which has been under negotiation for more than three years – calls for the first 18 of 126 Rafale jets to be built in France. After that, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would take over production of the remaining 108 aircraft.

However, Dassault's responsibility for the latter has been the subject of heated negotiations between New Delhi and Paris in recent months.

“A lot of progress has been made since 2012,” says Collet-Billon, adding that as negotiations enter a fourth year, he wants to believe they will give way to a contract for the 126 fighters plus 63 options.

But Collet-Billon said talks with the Indian government have become bogged down over questions of production of the fighters on Indian soil.

"India has its own pace," he said of New Delhi officials. "It’s not useful to put pressure on the client. We have to live with our differences."

In the meantime, he says rival fighter suppliers pose no serious threat to the Rafale bid. After two failed attempts to export the French fighter – South Korea in 2002 and Brazil in late 2013 – the DGA has learned to be careful.

Collet-Billon says talks are more advanced in Egypt, where France could sell up to 24 Rafale fighters, a FREMM frigate and a number of armaments.

The first of these aircraft could be delivered in 2018, although a very impatient Egypt would want “a handful” very soon, which could be delivered in 2015, according to DGA officials.

These few aircraft would relieve the burden of the French government, which is on the hook to fund 11 Rafale jets per year to keep Dassault's production line viable.

To that end, France has planned to order 11 Rafale in 2015, but just four in 2016, assuming export sales will ultimately materialize.

Export is “crucial” to maintaining the current spending scheme of €31.4 billion per year on defense, Collet-Billon said.

“Problems will occur this year if we don't export Rafale aircraft," he said.

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares

@sancho @Abingdonboy @halloweene @DrSomnath999

 

[Prajapati]

Why Dassault does not want to take responsibility of HAL produced fighters

As per the initial plans, the air force was to receive its first aircraft within three years of a contract signature, and all 126 fighters were to be delivered within 11 years. If Dassault concludes the Rafale contract this year, the air force would receive the first of 18 “fly-away” aircraft in 2018, and the last of 108 aircraft built by HAL in 2026. The state-owned airframer’s track record, however, sggests that it will complete Rafale deliveries only by 2029-2030.

Source: Exceprt from FlightGlobal

This is the reason as Dassault clearly feels HAL can never adhere to time frame..

I hope you do not get too carried away by Paid media.

Dassault Advertises in FlightGlobal and that is how they make a profit and pay their employees. Kindly take such "reports" with a pinch of salt. They are nothing but covert PR machinery.

Dassault should leave HAL to its own affair and they should not pretend to read into HAL's future and attempt to predict a delay 15 years into the FUTURE

This very absurd "prediction/analysis" by Dassault itself indicates malafide intent.

Imagine this scenario, Dassault delays providing technical documentations, or parts for Rafale being built in HAL and deliberately introduces a delay. HAL will unfortunately bear the "blame" for the delay.

India has enough experience with the French to know that this is exactly how the french behave, remember Scorpene submarine ? Dassault is asked to take responsibility for the parts they deliver and the stuff they have promised to do. HAL is WISE not to trust Dassault.

 

[sancho]

Getting the Rafale was just too simple a solution wasn't it? India loves to do things the hard way

You are blaming the wrong side buddy, India did everything right unless there is a huge difference between the DPP and the RFP. It's Dassault that you have to blame, for not taking a strategic chance not only on the Indian defence market, but also for Rafale itself! India could had countributed so much for the further development of the Rafale.
The entire issue is just a shame caused by Dassault since late 2012, for their egoistic goals and that's what I don't get. How can a company waste such a huge chance for silly workshare issues and control over the licence production. What they get in return would give them multiple times a return of any damages they might have to pay, IF THEY MAKE MISTAKES DURING THE LICENCE PRODUCTION!

No matter what the decision now is, the years that were wasted now for such non issues is simply not reasonable in any way.

Its an open secret that MMRCA tender was cooked up from the start to ensure Rafale becomes the winner.
The requirements were laid down in such a way that Rafale meets them better than all other contenders.

Sorry but that's nonsense! M-MRCA took the same technical requirements of the earlier MRCA, except for the AESA radar and the Rafale was not part of the MRCA tender unlike the Mig, the Gripen or the F16.

 

[halloweene]

Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.

 

[sancho]

Why Dassault does not want to take responsibility of HAL produced fighters...

...This is the reason as Dassault clearly feels HAL can never adhere to time frame..

Nope, because Dassault wants HAL to do it like Dassault says and don't accept anything else, but that's not up to them to decide!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.

You're right about it not all being DCNS's fault, the Indian side did have role to play in the delays for sure.

But sir please stick to the Rafale in India, it seems this deal is circling the drain, Dassualt hasn't backed down from its position, now the French MoD is backing it and the Indian side isn't going to back down from its position either and objectively speaking they seem to be on the right side considering the RFP that went out. Dassualt is stating its intention not to stick to the RFP and thus will be disqualified from the MMRCA procurement, game over?

 

[sancho]

Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.

Definitely not, because the lack of know how in licence production of subs in MDL was part of the problem too. That however is not the case with HAL. HAL is the most experienced Indian partner Dassault can find, HAL has shown good performance in MKI and Hawk licence productions, when credibly supported by the OEM and strangely neither Thales nor Snecma are complaining about HAL, although both of them are working with them for implementing systems, which once again shows where the problem actually lies and the same problem was the base of complains of the UAE too!

 

[Echo_419]

Dassault takes three years to build Rafale, but an indianized Rafale could be built in 18 months (after that 18 months you can't change the technical definition).
I am not sure DCNS is the only one to be blamed for scorpene delays. Magazon docks have their share... Didn't hear any complaint from Brazil.

I agree with that the fault was from our side too & let's hope the Rafale deal will work out just fine.Having said that you are responsible for this Deal's delay,even the Arabs (UAE) are complaining about the same thing as we are.

 

[Didact]

I agree with that the fault was from our side too & let's hope the Rafale deal will work out just fine.Having said that you are responsible for this Deal's delay,even the Arabs (UAE) are complaining about the same thing as we are.

There's been too much of hardening of positions on both sides recently, and that ever augurs well for any prospective deal. The fact that Manohar Parrikar should choose to go out and publicly suggest non-compliance to the RFP by Dassault is as clear cut a warning as anyone would expect. Conversely, that also means The DM and the MoD are now locked onto following through with the deal as per the original RFP.

Any deviation and the rejuvenated opposition may well tear into the Government, a charge this govenment will be desperate to avoid.

And yeah, a good part of the MoD bureaucracy, including some very senior officials are against this deal, almost everybody is aware of it. And listening to Manhar Parrikar, it's not entirely unfeasible that he doesn't see any significant merit of this deal anymore.

 

[Echo_419]

There's been too much of hardening of positions on both sides recently, and that ever augurs well for any prospective deal. The fact that Manohar Parrikar should choose to go out and publicly suggest non-compliance to the RFP by Dassault is as clear cut a warning as anyone would expect. Conversely, that also means The DM and the MoD are now locked onto following through with the deal as per the original RFP.

Any deviation and the rejuvenated opposition may well tear into the Government, a charge this govenment will be desperate to avoid.

And yeah, a good part of the MoD bureaucracy, including some very senior officials are against this deal, almost everybody is aware of it. And listening to Manhar Parrikar, it's not entirely unfeasible that he doesn't see any significant merit of this deal anymore.

This deal is highly important if we want to build a strong Air force & a strong Aviation Industry

 

[topgun047]

Sorry but that's nonsense! M-MRCA took the same technical requirements of the earlier MRCA, except for the AESA radar and the Rafale was not part of the MRCA tender unlike the Mig, the Gripen or the F16.

No offense but I will take the word of Brahma Chellney over yours any day.

 

[sancho]

No offense but I will take the word of Brahma Chellney over yours any day.

Who said you have to take my word? Inform yourself and think about it on your own, look up the requirements of the initial MRCA and look how and when Rafale came into the picture, because all this easily counters any favourism for Rafale.

 

[topgun047]

Who said you have to take my word? Inform yourself and think about it on your own, look up the requirements of the initial MRCA and look how and when Rafale came into the picture, because all this easily counters any favourism for Rafale.

I am in no mood to educate you.
Do your research or don't.I can't be arsed..
If you are looking to for someone to pass time with you will be disappointed.
I believe I have already I mentioned Brahma Chelleney.
Google would be a good start.