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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

@halloweene Thanks a ton.. was hoping to get some inside snippet but guess the silence is golden here. But hows the mood in Dassault Camp? Other than Egypt or Qatar talks i mean specifically about Indian MMRCA? Do you see nervousness or you feel business as usual and non botheration?

I am asking bcz body language at times typically portray what people dont speak...
 
French government doesn't that's why the government officials are coming to India so often, the problem is Dassault.
Yes sir and that is what is shocking. usually it is the other way round with Business representatives asking government to put its weight behind international deals, Dassault doesn't seem to be showing any desperation. & considering Dassault has had a very long association with IAF, the casualness (if i may use the word), seems even more baffling.
 
Yes sir and that is what is shocking. usually it is the other way round with Business representatives asking government to put its weight behind international deals, Dassault doesn't seem to be showing any desperation. & considering Dassault has had a very long association with IAF, the casualness (if i may use the word), seems even more baffling.

They don't have to, which is partially based on their success on the civil aviation market, besides the other fields of Dassault, but also because the French government made itself too dependent on Dassault. They have no alternative to Rafale and had to take whatever Dassault does. For the government and the forces, the lack of exports is bad, because it increases to costs for them, while limiting the upgrades which otherwise could be funded externally. Same goes for the sub contractors of the French industry, that suffer from the lack of exports. Look at Sagem that can't really export MICA or AASM and is soley dependent on sales in relation to Mirage 2000 or Rafale. The fact that Dassault has allowed customers like the UAE or India to integrate other PGMs, might even kill the AASM export potential, it's upgrade potential is already hit deeply.
So when Dassault is in a healthy situation and has fixed orders of the French forces, why should they care about others? Sad, but a credible problem for our deal and for the Rafale as a fighter.
 
They don't have to, which is partially based on their success on the civil aviation market, besides the other fields of Dassault, but also because the French government made itself too dependent on Dassault. They have no alternative to Rafale and had to take whatever Dassault does. For the government and the forces, the lack of exports is bad, because it increases to costs for them, while limiting the upgrades which otherwise could be funded externally. Same goes for the sub contractors of the French industry, that suffer from the lack of exports. Look at Sagem that can't really export MICA or AASM and is soley dependent on sales in relation to Mirage 2000 or Rafale. The fact that Dassault has allowed customers like the UAE or India to integrate other PGMs, might even kill the AASM export potential, it's upgrade potential is already hit deeply.
So when Dassault is in a healthy situation and has fixed orders of the French forces, why should they care about others? Sad, but a credible problem for our deal and for the Rafale as a fighter.

That doesn't sound very good either. Dassault may be having a monopoly in France, but it must remember it is in negotiations on an international contract and any fallout is going to affect prospects elsewhere too. If some earlier reports are to be believed, existing lines and orders will support Rafale program till 2023 with 11 per year delivery. International orders are going to provide revenues for not just this program but also for any future French Gen V fighter program. But with the kind of scenario u've mentioned, it looks like Dassault is in as much hurry as someone is on a Sunday afternoon grocery shopping.
 
"Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the [MMRCA] contract in India" (Collet-Billon [head] of DGA [at a press conference today

WTF does that mean is the question of the month for everyone including me & OLYBRIUS that need to be answered :lol:

perhaps MMRCA deal is heading to scrapyard


CHEERS
 
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"Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the [MMRCA] contract in India" (Collet-Billon [head] of DGA [at a press conference today

WTF does that mean is the question of the month for everyone including me & OLYBRIUS that need to be answered :lol:

perhaps MMRCA deal is heading to scrapyard

CHEERS

There was Never a Doubt about where it was heading once BJP came to power.

For Dasault head to say that publicly indicates its trying to shift blame to India for the deal collapsing. They are now banking on sales in Arab world and possibly South America. I suspect Dassault share value is going to drop by a significant percentage.
 
Alain Ruello @AlainRuello · 4h4 hours ago
#Rafale : Dassault ne prendra pas la responsabilité globale du contrat en Inde (Collet-Billon DGA)

Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the contract in India

Laurent Collet-Billon is an armaments engineer who holds since 28 July 2008, the function delegate general arming of theFrench armed forces . He has the rank of general engineer of exceptional class armaments (IGACE) 1 , it is a Commander of the Legion of Honour and Officer of the National Order of Merit .

The Direction générale de l’armement (DGA), which can be translated with “General Directorate for Armament”, is theFrench Government Defense procurement agency responsible for the program management, development and purchase of weapon systems for the French military.


Other than this tweet no other report.

If its true, then i guess unless india does a dramatic backdown, we can french kiss Rafale Good bye.

It would be really sad... But i do wish to question GOI regarding inability to convince big companies like Dassault to have faith and confidence over HAL's ability. All in all if the deal does break down, then its gonna be a great shame. A good platform we missed especially bcz Rafale program has potentially Two major upgrades left at least beyond F3R also. So evolution point of view, we could have got a good jet.
 
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@halloweene Thanks a ton.. was hoping to get some inside snippet but guess the silence is golden here. But hows the mood in Dassault Camp? Other than Egypt or Qatar talks i mean specifically about Indian MMRCA? Do you see nervousness or you feel business as usual and non botheration?

I am asking bcz body language at times typically portray what people dont speak...
Mood id at smile.
 
"Dassault will not take overall responsibility for the [MMRCA] contract in India" (Collet-Billon [head] of DGA [at a press conference today

WTF does that mean is the question of the month for everyone including me & OLYBRIUS that need to be answered :lol:

perhaps MMRCA deal is heading to scrapyard


CHEERS

Unless there is a specific context, the statement is pretty clear isn't it?. Dassault doesn't take responsibility => doesn't comply to RFP => Rafale get rejected from the tender. :angry:

@halloweene

Any comment on that?
 
Mood id at smile.
@halloweene your take on that tweet ^^ same old same old? This implies nothing has changed and the Defence Minister of India has said that unless Dassualt sticks to the RFP the deal will be scrapped. Not looking good at the moment for the Rafale and India :(
 
@halloweene your take on that tweet ^^ same old same old? This implies nothing has changed and the Defence Minister of India has said that unless Dassualt sticks to the RFP the deal will be scrapped. Not looking good at the moment for the Rafale and India :(

Yes the silent since since early jan didn't sounded that good and now such a pretty clear statement makes it even worse. I just read what Olybrius said, but that doesn't really makes sense. If the DGA takes over responsibility, why shouldn't he just stated that? Same case about Indian MoD / HAL changing it's stand, if that would be the case he would had stated something positive and not this right? Anything, like we made a breakthrough..., or there is movement on the Indian side but not this.
 
Yes the silent since since early jan didn't sounded that good and now such a pretty clear statement makes it even worse. I just read what Olybrius said, but that doesn't really makes sense. If the DGA takes over responsibility, why shouldn't he just stated that? Same case about Indian MoD / HAL changing it's stand, if that would be the case he would had stated something positive and not this right? Anything, like we made a breakthrough..., or there is movement on the Indian side but not this.
Yeah the two alternate scenarios Olybrius stated didn't really fit into what the MoD/DM of India has said in the past. It seems like the exact same roadblock and no solutions have been found.
 
Yeah the two alternate scenarios Olybrius stated didn't really fit into what the MoD/DM of India has said in the past. It seems like the exact same roadblock and no solutions have been found.

The issue is pretty much the same since 2012 / 13, it just shifted a bit from workshare to liability, but as shown the Indian side remained steady:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 15

And when the DM once again states it in January that he doesn't move away from these requirements, what should change his mind now?
Sound more like, Dassault has made up their mind and gives the ball back and the MoD is now left with the final decision.

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale

After months of watching Dassault Aviation being brow-beaten in the Indian press, French arms procurement agency DGA defended its contractor, asserting that a 2012 agreement to provide Rafale fighter jets to New Delhi never committed the company to guarantee aircraft manufactured in India.

“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”

Speaking to reporters during an annual media address Feb. 9 in Paris, France's arms procurement chief said the €10.2-billion ($12 billion) agreement – which has been under negotiation for more than three years – calls for the first 18 of 126 Rafale jets to be built in France. After that, India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) would take over production of the remaining 108 aircraft.

However, Dassault's responsibility for the latter has been the subject of heated negotiations between New Delhi and Paris in recent months.

“A lot of progress has been made since 2012,” says Collet-Billon, adding that as negotiations enter a fourth year, he wants to believe they will give way to a contract for the 126 fighters plus 63 options.

But Collet-Billon said talks with the Indian government have become bogged down over questions of production of the fighters on Indian soil.

"India has its own pace," he said of New Delhi officials. "It’s not useful to put pressure on the client. We have to live with our differences."

In the meantime, he says rival fighter suppliers pose no serious threat to the Rafale bid. After two failed attempts to export the French fighter – South Korea in 2002 and Brazil in late 2013 – the DGA has learned to be careful.

Collet-Billon says talks are more advanced in Egypt, where France could sell up to 24 Rafale fighters, a FREMM frigate and a number of armaments.

The first of these aircraft could be delivered in 2018, although a very impatient Egypt would want “a handful” very soon, which could be delivered in 2015, according to DGA officials.

These few aircraft would relieve the burden of the French government, which is on the hook to fund 11 Rafale jets per year to keep Dassault's production line viable.

To that end, France has planned to order 11 Rafale in 2015, but just four in 2016, assuming export sales will ultimately materialize.

Export is “crucial” to maintaining the current spending scheme of €31.4 billion per year on defense, Collet-Billon said.

“Problems will occur this year if we don't export Rafale aircraft," he said.

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares
 
The issue is pretty much the same since 2012 / 13, it just shifted a bit from workshare to liability, but as shown the Indian side remained steady:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 15

And when the DM once again states it in January that he doesn't move away from these requirements, what should change his mind now?
Sound more like, Dassault has made up their mind and gives the ball back and the MoD is now left with the final decision.
Sadly I am inclined to agree with you and given what the DM has stated and the government being what it is, this playing "hardball" with them is only going to lead to one outcome- ripping up the entire procurement. Then the really hard questions will have to be asked, namely- now what? The MKI is not an option, the EFT isn't either (forget that L2 bidders can't get back into the race but do we really think the MoD/IAF are going to go in for ANOTHER 3+ years of negotiations with another firm and then have to wait 3 MORE years on top of that for deliveries?), the MKI with its enormous operational costs and low availability (60-65%) isn't really an alternative either (no matter what the DM wants to say) neither is the LCA. I would say throw the $15-16 Billion at the AMCA on an accelerated design path but even on a fast track basis that bird isn't coming before 2025 and the MiG-21/27 are still in service to day and still falling out of the skies TODAY.

What an utter mess.
“Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract. It is a co-management setup,” says French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon, who was clear that France will not assume full liability for the HAL-produced aircraft. “It cannot be a problem, because it was not in the request for proposals (RFP).”

French MoD Backs Dassault's Position on Indian Rafale | Ares
This is what confuses me, the Indian MoD/DM and French MoD have opposite interpretations of the exact same document, this simply shouldn't be possible, it is literally black and white. Both sides can't be right, so who is being mischievous here......
 

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