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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

The EFT consortium and SAAB have been heavily investing in such advertising in India for the past year, seems desperate but I guess they have to, just to say they did...

But a pretty smart PR don't you think? Basically an invitation to the EF to be made in India, they only had to add the PM's picture. :)

The L2 bidders can't come back into the race, as stated by the DM himself so it seems rather futile nonetheless.

Again, he never stated that!
 
Again, he never stated that!
Pretty sure he said just that in his interview. I'll check when I get home ;)


+ a very smart move by EFT consortium. Dassualt definetly missed a trick there.
 
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Thats interesting, when did that happen?
 
Again, he never stated that!

The rules do make it impossible to go to L2 but let me ask you a tantalizing question......what if in the wake of the supposed price increases of Rafale the MoD determines that Rafale is not actually L1 & EF is L1? Most tenders don't have this complication -L1 remains lowest, this one is different & does allow us to speculate?(only)
 
The rules do make it impossible to go to L2 but let me ask you a tantalizing question......what if in the wake of the supposed price increases of Rafale the MoD determines that Rafale is not actually L1 & EF is L1? Most tenders don't have this complication -L1 remains lowest, this one is different & does allow us to speculate?(only)

You are probably unaware of govt. rules regarding tendering. Once L-1 is established that particular tender is OVER.

When MOD says that Rafale must stick to the RFP it means that Rafale CANNOT increased the price ad hoc. It can only increase it as determined in the RFP. It would be around 8-10% per every financial year.

Rafale has tried to trick the previous govt. and its negotiation committee by their blackmail and bag of tricks, it is unlikely to work with Parrikar OR Modi. .......... Rafale is unlikely to back down either, leaving only one possible conclusion.
 
The rules do make it impossible to go to L2 but let me ask you a tantalizing question......what if in the wake of the supposed price increases of Rafale the MoD determines that Rafale is not actually L1 & EF is L1? Most tenders don't have this complication -L1 remains lowest, this one is different & does allow us to speculate?(only)

Sir here is how it works. The initial indent proposal/tender/PFP has to mention the cost calculation method. In this case for example MoD defined life cycle costs (consisting of initial capital cost, running or flying cost) as basis of determining the Lowest-1 (L-1) bidder. There is a plain method of doing it by simply adding the capital cost and then adding the expenses expected for flying divided by expected flying hours (6000 hrs in this case i suppose) plus maintenance cost expected (Spares included) and the depreciation.
Now the issue gets complicated when you compare two seemingly identical machines that may have different set of maintenance requirement. Assume hypothetically that Rafale's engine would require engine maintenance after 1000 flying hours (so total 5 in all for 6000 hrs) and EFT's would require so after say 2000 hrs (total 2). Let us also assume that each overhaul for Rafale would cost $10 but for EFT it is $50, so at the end of 6000 hrs you would find, just for one component you've paid $50 more during entire life. This way you can add for all possible components and work out a value., however it is quite complex considering there could be cases where two or more components are affected by one another.
Now as far as rules for procurement are concerned, in two part bidding system (Financial and technical), the technical requirements and their adequacy was adjudged by IAF long time back and after doing above calculations, L-1 cost was also found in favor of Dassault.
It is pertinent to quote here that officials have said this difference of cost as razor thin.
But guidelines for procurement clearly indicate that one cannot go to any other bidder other than L-1 even for negotiations. So theoretically even if EFT brings down its cost to that of Dassault's offer or even lower, you cannot place an order on them. The process requires Re-Tendering.
But in all i guess it isn't correct to speculate that cost is the factor behind delay of deal, the reasons as DM states are Dassault's hesitance from taking guarantee of HAL's part of deal and since this was a part of original tender, the condition cannot be waived off. The logic is if t so happens, theoretically it would've been possible to procure the items at lower cost from L-2 bidder as rules fo tender has changed. this is called Post Facto changes and aren't allowed without very solid justifications. I don't think DM or PM would take a chance here.
I'll also narrate a relevant situation, i once heard at a training seminar. This was on Public procurement system and faculty was ex GM of East Central Railways. One person from a PSU asked what should be done in case there are two L-1 bidders (a scenario similar to what we might be having here with Dassault and Rafale's offer being very very close). to which it was replied that under such a scenario, the buyer can call both party's for negotiation by disclosing the initial and final price bid of other. This way laws of natural justice isn't violated.
 
You are probably unaware of govt. rules regarding tendering. Once L-1 is established that particular tender is OVER.

When MOD says that Rafale must stick to the RFP it means that Rafale CANNOT increased the price ad hoc. It can only increase it as determined in the RFP. It would be around 8-10% per every financial year.

Rafale has tried to trick the previous govt. and its negotiation committee by their blackmail and bag of tricks, it is unlikely to work with Parrikar OR Modi. .......... Rafale is unlikely to back down either, leaving only one possible conclusion.
Sir here is how it works. The initial indent proposal/tender/PFP has to mention the cost calculation method. In this case for example MoD defined life cycle costs (consisting of initial capital cost, running or flying cost) as basis of determining the Lowest-1 (L-1) bidder. There is a plain method of doing it by simply adding the capital cost and then adding the expenses expected for flying divided by expected flying hours (6000 hrs in this case i suppose) plus maintenance cost expected (Spares included) and the depreciation.
Now the issue gets complicated when you compare two seemingly identical machines that may have different set of maintenance requirement. Assume hypothetically that Rafale's engine would require engine maintenance after 1000 flying hours (so total 5 in all for 6000 hrs) and EFT's would require so after say 2000 hrs (total 2). Let us also assume that each overhaul for Rafale would cost $10 but for EFT it is $50, so at the end of 6000 hrs you would find, just for one component you've paid $50 more during entire life. This way you can add for all possible components and work out a value., however it is quite complex considering there could be cases where two or more components are affected by one another.
Now as far as rules for procurement are concerned, in two part bidding system (Financial and technical), the technical requirements and their adequacy was adjudged by IAF long time back and after doing above calculations, L-1 cost was also found in favor of Dassault.
It is pertinent to quote here that officials have said this difference of cost as razor thin.
But guidelines for procurement clearly indicate that one cannot go to any other bidder other than L-1 even for negotiations. So theoretically even if EFT brings down its cost to that of Dassault's offer or even lower, you cannot place an order on them. The process requires Re-Tendering.
But in all i guess it isn't correct to speculate that cost is the factor behind delay of deal, the reasons as DM states are Dassault's hesitance from taking guarantee of HAL's part of deal and since this was a part of original tender, the condition cannot be waived off. The logic is if t so happens, theoretically it would've been possible to procure the items at lower cost from L-2 bidder as rules fo tender has changed. this is called Post Facto changes and aren't allowed without very solid justifications. I don't think DM or PM would take a chance here.
I'll also narrate a relevant situation, i once heard at a training seminar. This was on Public procurement system and faculty was ex GM of East Central Railways. One person from a PSU asked what should be done in case there are two L-1 bidders (a scenario similar to what we might be having here with Dassault and Rafale's offer being very very close). to which it was replied that under such a scenario, the buyer can call both party's for negotiation by disclosing the initial and final price bid of other. This way laws of natural justice isn't violated.

I'm aware of government rules regarding L1. What I asked was that L1 here is saying the quoted price is not its actual price & will need more. Assuming that the requested increase makes it costlier than L2, it brings into question whether it is actually the true L1 and how that should be determined.( I did make it clear I was indulging in speculation) CAG would not have looked at any price increase by L1 that takes it past L2 with much favour. My question was a hypothetical one & does not apply to normal tenders because L1 does not usually change its price.. Here L1 is trying to do it and whether that should be looked at as a reason for closing the tender itself & blacklisting L1 or whether a re-look was possible at who was L1 in view of the new increases sought. Allowing L1 to increase price here would bring to question the very basis of selection of L1.
 
I'm aware of government rules regarding L1. What I asked was that L1 here is saying the quoted price is not its actual price & will need more. Assuming that the requested increase makes it costlier than L2, it brings into question whether it is actually the true L1 and how that should be determined.( I did make it clear I was indulging in speculation) CAG would not have looked at any price increase by L1 that takes it past L2 with much favour. My question was a hypothetical one & does not apply to normal tenders because L1 does not usually change its price.. Here L1 is trying to do it and whether that should be looked at as a reason for closing the tender itself & blacklisting L1 or whether a re-look was possible at who was L1 in view of the new increases sought. Allowing L1 to increase price here would bring to question the very basis of selection of L1.

Well i guess we must look into two things as far as escalation is concerned.
1. Since the price bid are atleast 3 years old now, what was the price validity as per the original offer? We must consider that all bids contain a validity period and this cannot be indefinite period of time. So did Dassault (or EADS) mention that, i'm sure they did. All government procedures allow escalation for running contracts based on several indices but in this case since no purchase order is issued, it would not be realistic to assume that Dassault (or any other bidder) would maintain the prices quoted long time back. In this scenario, was there a dynamic component of cost built into the contract that allows purchaser to calculate cost at a later point of time (beyond validity period) and if so what is the current cost of both Rafale and EFT?
2. We have not accounted for change in Foreign exchange fluctuation. Now to supplier it might not make difference but to us atleast the projected cost would've definitely revised. Upto what limit is this variation allowed.
Finally on your question of L-1 bidder increasing the price. I put forward an scenario (which again is hypothetical). Suppose EADS was called for negotiations and it too revises its price quoting delay and expiry of its price validity, it won't be possible to place an order on him as it again will throw a different set of values changing the position of bidders. Thus it may become a never ending cycle.
I therefore feel that government might not have any other option but to strike out a deal with Dassault by convincing it to accept all terms and conditions of original tender or scrap the whole process and start afresh. I also doubt any chance of black-listing Dassault as it may sour relations with France. Guess it is high time French government intervenes and settle the issue (that would be last ditch effort to save the deal).
 
Well i guess we must look into two things as far as escalation is concerned.
1. Since the price bid are atleast 3 years old now, what was the price validity as per the original offer? We must consider that all bids contain a validity period and this cannot be indefinite period of time. So did Dassault (or EADS) mention that, i'm sure they did. All government procedures allow escalation for running contracts based on several indices but in this case since no purchase order is issued, it would not be realistic to assume that Dassault (or any other bidder) would maintain the prices quoted long time back. In this scenario, was there a dynamic component of cost built into the contract that allows purchaser to calculate cost at a later point of time (beyond validity period) and if so what is the current cost of both Rafale and EFT?
2. We have not accounted for change in Foreign exchange fluctuation. Now to supplier it might not make difference but to us atleast the projected cost would've definitely revised. Upto what limit is this variation allowed.
Finally on your question of L-1 bidder increasing the price. I put forward an scenario (which again is hypothetical). Suppose EADS was called for negotiations and it too revises its price quoting delay and expiry of its price validity, it won't be possible to place an order on him as it again will throw a different set of values changing the position of bidders. Thus it may become a never ending cycle.
I therefore feel that government might not have any other option but to strike out a deal with Dassault by convincing it to accept all terms and conditions of original tender or scrap the whole process and start afresh. I also doubt any chance of black-listing Dassault as it may sour relations with France. Guess it is high time French government intervenes and settle the issue (that would be last ditch effort to save the deal).

The government(s) have repeatedly asked the competitors to extend the validity of their bids, first in 2009, then in 2012. If the bids were to expire, I believe the rules do not allow the competitors to re-enter a new bid. So, the bid must stand.
 
.what if in the wake of the supposed price increases of Rafale the MoD determines that Rafale is not actually L1 & EF is L1? Most tenders don't have this complication -L1 remains lowest, this one is different & does allow us to speculate?(only)

Well the price increase is largly speculation by the media, Parrikar and several other officials constantly stated that the issue is Dassaults deviation of the RFP in terms of workshare and liability:

21.1.2013 - R K Mathur, Secretary Department of Defence Production:
Asked about the role of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in the multi-billion dollar deal on procuring the 126 fighter jets, Mathur said HAL’s role as the main integrator of the platforms was spelt out in the original request for proposal.
“The role of HAL is already defined in the original tender for medium multi-role combat aircraft project. It says that the main body, aero-engines, air frame and the integration shall be done by them,” Mathur said.


6.2.2013 - former Defence Minister Antony:
Mr. Antony clarified that the criteria in the request for proposal for the MMRCAs were final and non-negotiable, setting at rest speculation that their licensed production may be curtailed or taken out of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.


8.2.2013 - former IAF Chief Browne:
the air chief in response to a question that, "The contract between Dassault and Reliance does not bother us, as per the RfP production has to be carried out in India jointly with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited."


21.12.2014 Joint Secretary and Acquisition Manager (Air) Rajeev Verma:
...has made it clear that till the French side agrees to ministry’s demand, which was specified in the original tender, there will be no progress on the matter. During recent meetings of the negotiations committee, Verma has been virtually hostile towards the deal, say sources.


20.1.2015 Defence Minister Parrikar:
...Asked about the long stuck deal for buying medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA),the minister, in an interview to Headlines Today, said: "Ultimately, it has to fit the RFP... if it does not fit the RFP, nothing can be done."

Not to mention that the NDA after 8 month in power and 2 different Defence Ministers, should be aware of the costs, but they continued the tender process and the negotiations with Dassault, which indicates no big changes in the perception of L1.

So theoretically even if EFT brings down its cost to that of Dassault's offer or even lower, you cannot place an order on them. The process requires Re-Tendering.

Not necessarily, since the ongoing problem with Dassault is the deviation of the rules and requirements of the tender, the MoD could had rejected their bid and then automatically go to the L2. We have seen that in the consultancy tender for N-LCA too, where LM was selected as L1, but wasn't able to comply to the rules and IN went with the L2.
So if the bid for the EF would be lower now, the NDA government had it fairly easy to reject Rafale thanks to Dassault itself, but that didn't happened.
 
only parikar decide such; After yrs.
French government doesn't that's why the government officials are coming to India so often, the problem is Dassault.

In Case of the Mirag too it was happen, Dassault is always interested to get more cost than decided, dubai or some arab nation had also filed suit in france against them, and India paid more price for weapons eventhough the contract of miraj was with the condition to sale weapons.
 
India paid more price for weapons eventhough the contract of miraj was with the condition to sale weapons.

Weapon deals are always seperate deals, that's why we negotiate with MBDA about MICAs for Mirage upgrade, Asraam for Jaguar upgrade, MICA, METEOR and Scalp for Rafale.
 

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