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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Su-30MKI is a fine bird, but it has low availability rate (at this moment) and is expensive to fly and maintain

this is one of the primary reasons why India wanted a Western fighter and not another Russia bird like the Mig 35
Don't be kidding me. Russian sell SU35 fighter tagged at 80millions USD per. Don't tell me Rafale is better than Su35. No one is smarter than us when it comes to negotiation with Russia.
 
Don't be kidding me. Russian sell SU35 fighter tagged at 80millions USD per. Don't tell me Rafale is better than Su35. No one is smarter than us when it comes to negotiation with Russia.

if this is a fact then why did India have the MMRCA competition? why did it shortlist the Mig-35? why did they pick the Rafale :angel:

and in some regards the Rafale is better the Su-35, and it isn't a sure thing that a Su-35 would beat the Rafale in a dog fight either.

there are many factors that come into play :oops:
 
if this is a fact then why did India have the MMRCA competition? why did it shortlist the Mig-35? why did they pick the Rafale :angel:

and in some regards the Rafale is better the Su-35, and it isn't a sure thing that a Su-35 would beat the Rafale in a dog fight either.

there are many factors that come into play :oops:
Yes, I agree. I just think Rafale is just too expensive, most countries cant afford it.
 
Yes, I agree. I just think Rafale is just too expensive, most countries cant afford it.

it's a great bird, but you would need to get the deal the French Air Force is getting. you would have to buy direct from Dassault and even then hat will set you back $100 million to $120 million a plane.

at that cost you might as well just wait for the F-35 to mature.
 
Don't be kidding me. Russian sell SU35 fighter tagged at 80millions USD per. Don't tell me Rafale is better than Su35. No one is smarter than us when it comes to negotiation with Russia.

Rafale's better than the Su-35 in many respects. Sortie rate, manpower requirements, maintenance requirements, costs per flight hour, technology, nuclear strike capability, future development etc are in Rafale's favour. Su-35's only big advantage is its low purchase cost.

Our Super Sukhoi upgrade will make the MKI better than the Su-35 anyway, so we don't have the need for it. FGFA will eventually replace a large number of the Su-30s, so we are already thinking ahead.

Also Russia sold the Su-35 to China at a very high price. Sukhoi recently sold the SU-35 to RuAF at $15M per aircraft. The Russians have sold the Su-35 to China at costs roughly 3 times higher than they should have.

The purpose of MMRCA was to buy a non-Russian fighter.
Video: Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable II | StratPost
to categorize aircraft by weight limitations – we had to keep the Su-30 out because otherwise the Su-30 would have come into the competition, as well. And the question would have been raised, ‘Why can’t you buy more of the Su-30s’. Now you can’t put all your eggs in one basket – strategically, it’s unwise. -Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran

Matheswaran was the one who created the MMRCA program.
With respect to the MMRCA, the RFI was signed and sent out in November 2004 under my signature…

Sukhoi was purposely kept out of the competition by placing a 30 ton limit on the MTOW.
 
newer ge blades dont use crystal blades as the crystallization process come with flaws and a large amount of the blades are rejects. also if hal is able to builds such blades does not mean they can built an entire engine. you went for the m88 core and that did not work well.

i shall just say good luck and leave it there.

Wrong. GE 414 uses single crystal blades.

Rolls-Royce Open New UK Aircraft Engine Blade Casting Facility

Rolls-Royce have opened an advanced blade casting facility in Rotherham which is expected to produce more than 100,000 single crystal turbine blades a year, including high pressure (HP) and intermediate pressure (IP) single crystal blades.

Finally this is the picture of HAL building single crystal blades and entire engine. Kindly do not bother to spread your ignorance.

12-1418399265-kora-5.jpg


12-1418399364-kora-12.jpg
 
mate once carrier equipment is removed f 18 shed substantial amount of weight thus improving all of it characteristic like maneuverability,weapon and fuel carrying capability.
EW capability on f 18 is off the charts.normally kill is not inscribed on a jets body unless it has actually shot down the plane but in this exceptional case imagine what it would have done to the f 22 that they inscribed it on the growler.
@gambit sir your insight on this pic will be greatly appreciated regards.
View attachment 294535
(sorry guys for posting the same pic twice but needed gambits opinion on it )
I commented on that pic before and will say the same now -- that without knowing the details of that engagement, there is no telling on how the EF-18 'shot' down the F-22.

The Growler is a formidable EW platform and any adversary will rue the day he faces the Growler. But the F-22 is in a class by itself.

What were the 'rules of engagement' (ROE) ? Was the F-22 serving as a target to test the EF-18's EW capabilities to the fullest ? Was it a single fighter vs single fighter ? Put aside the fact that it was an EW platform that wears the Raptor marking, usually it is the lead and wingman pair that goes after a target. It does not matter if the target is a lumbering bomber or an agile fighter, it is always lead and wingman. What if the enemy fighter killed one of the pair before he himself got killed ?

Who was Red and who was Blue ? Quite often, the 'bad guys' are Red and they are allowed unlimited regeneration, meaning if a Red fighter was virtually shot down, he must leave the area but is allowed to return, as a new combatant, after a few minutes. This is to stress the Blue team to its endurance limits, simulating fighting against a numerically superior foe. If the EF-18 was a Red fighter, was there a kill to loss ratio, meaning how many Red fighters virtually died before the Blue Raptor fighter was virtually shot down ?

While I will not take credit away from the Growler crew, neither will I cast any doubt on the Raptor pilot. Air combat, even simulated, is very much a blender of variables that goes round and round at that blender speed. A snapshot in time, like that image of the Growler with the Raptor marking, tells us nothing.
 
I commented on that pic before and will say the same now -- that without knowing the details of that engagement, there is no telling on how the EF-18 'shot' down the F-22.

The Growler is a formidable EW platform and any adversary will rue the day he faces the Growler. But the F-22 is in a class by itself.

What were the 'rules of engagement' (ROE) ? Was the F-22 serving as a target to test the EF-18's EW capabilities to the fullest ? Was it a single fighter vs single fighter ? Put aside the fact that it was an EW platform that wears the Raptor marking, usually it is the lead and wingman pair that goes after a target. It does not matter if the target is a lumbering bomber or an agile fighter, it is always lead and wingman. What if the enemy fighter killed one of the pair before he himself got killed ?

Who was Red and who was Blue ? Quite often, the 'bad guys' are Red and they are allowed unlimited regeneration, meaning if a Red fighter was virtually shot down, he must leave the area but is allowed to return, as a new combatant, after a few minutes. This is to stress the Blue team to its endurance limits, simulating fighting against a numerically superior foe. If the EF-18 was a Red fighter, was there a kill to loss ratio, meaning how many Red fighters virtually died before the Blue Raptor fighter was virtually shot down ?

While I will not take credit away from the Growler crew, neither will I cast any doubt on the Raptor pilot. Air combat, even simulated, is very much a blender of variables that goes round and round at that blender speed. A snapshot in time, like that image of the Growler with the Raptor marking, tells us nothing.
sorry but i didn't knew that you have already commented on this pic before. thanks for the reply
have a nice day.
 
Wrong. GE 414 uses single crystal blades.

Rolls-Royce Open New UK Aircraft Engine Blade Casting Facility

Rolls-Royce have opened an advanced blade casting facility in Rotherham which is expected to produce more than 100,000 single crystal turbine blades a year, including high pressure (HP) and intermediate pressure (IP) single crystal blades.

Finally this is the picture of HAL building single crystal blades and entire engine. Kindly do not bother to spread your ignorance.

12-1418399265-kora-5.jpg


12-1418399364-kora-12.jpg
live in your own bubble and btw they make them near clithroe too.
and good luck with you engine development, im sure with your track record you will have an engine very soon.
 
live in your own bubble and btw they make them near clithroe too.
and good luck with you engine development, im sure with your track record you will have an engine very soon.

LOL...what bubble ? the only bubble I see here is the cocoon of ignorance woven with the silk of prejudice inside which you live.

How about another picture of the bubble which makes single crystal blades in India ?

hal-koraput.jpg


B-I1FeQCYAAp2cn.jpg
 
The day the indian aerospace industry would have the same current technologies,skills,knowledge of Dassault,then we could talk about it.

So how much Indian credibility as a reliable buyer is taking a hit after scrapping MMRCA negotiations and now continuously dragging their feet over this negotiations as well ?
 
LOL...what bubble ? the only bubble I see here is the cocoon of ignorance woven with the silk of prejudice inside which you live.

How about another picture of the bubble which makes single crystal blades in India ?

hal-koraput.jpg


B-I1FeQCYAAp2cn.jpg
whatever makes you sleep at night. :-)
no more of topic posts
 
So how much Indian credibility as a reliable buyer is taking a hit after scrapping MMRCA negotiations and now continuously dragging their feet over this negotiations as well ?

How nice...even after 'scrapping MMRCA' and taking a hit to our credibility as a reliable buyer, every single country/company that participated in MMRCA is still ready to sell their aircraft, even more advanced versions with more improvements, with even more lucrative tech-transfer or local production deals. Have you been reading the news at all?

Boeing, Lockheed, SAAB, EADS are all still ready for sale & local production. Some (like Boeing) are ready to shift the entire production line to India for the Super Hornet.

The only reason why Dassault is still negotiating, and is speaking of further sweetening the deal only makes it clear that they understand the business culture here and are trying their level-best to get a deal. The Govt. is trying the same, but their aim is to get better side-benefits to the local industry, while negotiating to reduce the price.

If anything, it only increased our reputation as a good, shrewd customer.

Any involved party can clearly see the difference between deals like these and how UAE/Egypt buy their stuff. We're not just looking to get a plane, we're looking to transfer an aviation industry.
 
Hope sanity prevails in MOD and this deal is scrapped ASAP and Boeing is roped in to manufacture F18SH in India and help completing LCA/IJT project on time . DRDO HAL are incapable of delivering anything and Rafale will make us bankrupt
 
Some news

Budget 2016: Rafale jet deal unlikely in current fiscal
The wait for the 36 Rafale combat aircraft is going to get longer due to budgetary constraints and the delay in concluding negotiations with French company Dassault.

By: Huma Siddiqui | New Delhi | February 19, 2016 12:46 AM

The wait for the 36 Rafale combat aircraft is going to get longer due to budgetary constraints and the delay in concluding negotiations with French company Dassault.

According to sources in the ministry of defence, though the negotiations with Dassault have been put on fast track, the deal is not expected to be cleared during this fiscal.

Speaking to FE on conditions of anonymity, an officer who has been part of the negotiating team, said, “The negotiations with the French company are on track. But there are several other agencies involved in this pact and it will take another few months before the negotiations are complete, which means the deal will not be done this fiscal ended March 2016.”

The sources have indicated despite PMO’s push for this deal, the cost of the combat machines which has gone up since the last negotiations and issuance of RFP in 2009, Indian side is expecting that through negotiations it will manage to strike a deal at $ 7 bn for 36 fighter jets.

It is uncertain if the contract would be signed within the current fiscal even if negotiations were completed by late next month and all issues relating to technology transfer from Dassault were taken care of and papers readied before March 30.

Apart from the lengthy process, other factors that might impact the much-awaited deal include government’s several social programmes, implementation of the 7th pay commission recommendations and the OROP arrears.

According to official sources, the negotiations have dragged on for so long due to issues related to 50% offsets requirement and transfer of technology. The French, it appears, are unwilling to transfer technology such as that of the electronically scanned AESA radar, citing lack of maturity of the Indian defence industry to absorb critical technologies.

The final cost has come to about 2-3% more as it will be a government-to-government deal, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has expressed hope that the price of one Rafale jet will be 25% less. The deal could cost India close to $8 billion, which includes the cost of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition.


“We are still in the process of deciding whether there is a need to order of all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or ten years. And the negotiations are still on what kind of financial penalties can be imposed on Dassault Aviation Company which is making the combat plane if the performance was unsatisfactory,” the sources told FE.

Budget 2016: Rafale jet deal unlikely in current fiscal | The Financial Express
++

Comments
  • Signing can be done as I have said payment can be in March end or in April meaning next fiscal
  • This is in spite of almost $ 6 Bn being available under un-utilised funds as per various news reports in last fortnight
  • I had commented that Price negotiations wlll see an approximate Euro 700Mn more cut to Euro 8 Bn and finally around Eur 7.3 Bn or USD 7.89Bn and article talks about costing USD 8 Mn
  • Technology transfer seems to be a myth here as under DPP 2016 Its manufacturing line and credible TOT for identified projects like LCA
  • Perhaps this technology for AESA is more about negotiations for RBE2 AESA radar or a variant to AMCA talks
  • I have said before that AMCA will have many tech derived from both Rafale and FGFA. Recall also that i informed here that NSA Ajit Doval was in Paris before Prez Hollande visit to talk about many "strategic" things including such negotiations.
  • Interestingly the all inclusive price of the package its USD 8 Bn implies at current USD/INR of 68.728 its approximately INR 55000, again i have said its approx below 56000 Crs
  • If i say divide at say 45-50% Jets+Weapons. 45% all support+infra+spares+etc and 10% customization the jets are still at approx 700-750 Crs with weapons loaded
  • This is in line with what i have said about India wanting Jets+weapons at below Rs 800 Crs and are looking closer to Rs 700 Crs via negotiations. Thats approx Euro 93 Mn or USD 100 Mn mark which i have said all along and given a figure of Euro 3.6 Bn (jets +weapons) and negotiating more on that.
@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @anant_s @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @others

I am still saying there would be lots of paid media articles to showcase that rafale deal is costly and rafale deal is not correct and what not... Strong brainwashing my Saab, Boeing and LM as part of their marketing blitz and muscle flexing..

I said in another thread DM MP is trying to dole out carrot and stick strategy for US MIC for the F16 deal with our neighbor and trying to "bluff" his way through a PR exercise.

If this article is true and as with source based news i gave before this may be point to the true valuation of Rafale Deal...

We are getting a good deal from France and anything below USD 100 or Euro 93 Mn for jets+weapons is a steal.. I hope the country sees the truth if whatever i have said and report like this and Dinakar Peri from Hindu also has said the same thing and we stop chasing other aircrafts and make most of what we have in front of us..

I am waiting for IN confirmation of Rafale M requirements.. Judging from the source based talks, IN has indicated 4 tranches of purchase so far.. Each tranch is approximated around 55-60 Jets totalling approx 200+ over next 2 decades.
Oh a side news, IN wants minimum two bigger carriers for approx 55-60 jets and both they want before completion of 2027-2042 naval modernization plan timeline ending. So 110+ requirements are coming from carriers needs alone and rest from enhanced operations which IN wants to take including taking over shore based patrolling jointly with IAF or alone. Also some discussion are under way for boosting A&N command center in a big way with multi squadron placement there with force multipliers and a SAM shield (both MR and LR variants).

Will wait for more news from source and in public domain to let you all know..
 
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