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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Too much of confusion right now
The correct way I think is to
1. Scale up production of Su30Mkis and order some additional from Russia is numbers is a concern and the made in Russia one is cheap and we save a good amount.
2. Do anything but ensure that Tejas achives FOC quick and prototypes of Tejas Mk1A roll out soon.
3. Make ground preparations for a private assembly line of Tejas Mk1A.
4. Make a simple deal with Dassault without offsets and any, I repeat any kind of TOT or reinvestment in India and buy Rafales at fly away costs for about 4 squadron .
5. And then look up for partners to start up development of aircraft subsystems like we are doing on radars with Israel.
6. And then look for a MMRCA aircraft from a private assembly line , if the problem of falling numbers is more. Even if it means going for another Russian platform.
 
@PARIKRAMA
more confusion here.
according to my source,,negotiations r only for 36(+18optional),,all French made,,no TOT rafale or related tech knowhow for lca/amca,,,,issue is price n configuration.
,further fighter acquisitions will be based on some new behind the door GtG deal ,,might not be rafale.
also thr is little to no chance of rafale-m,,,if we want emals,nuclear propulsion thn we will have to go wid American fighters.

Nice so for DM MP it looks like a prom night scenario.. Whom he will take for the ball dance?
Dassault a french Beauty..
LM/Boeing - American hottie..
Saab - Swedish stunner...

Looks like all are waiting to see who comes by the arms of our DM entering the dance floor?

Side and important question - Is the prom night this year or next or next to next.....

@halupridol
Oh about EMALs i guess you did nt see a link by @Ankit Kumar ..

upload_2016-2-21_20-31-14.png


Now thats Yusuf whose posting it .. Lol


Here from the article :
But as per the terms of reference for the JWGACTC "only conventional propulsion systems" (gas turbines or diesel-electric systems) are under discussion as of now. "The US has its own export control laws... nuclear propulsion is not on the table," said an MoD source.

article link
India, US talk aircraft carrier technology, but key point off the menu - The Economic Times

post link courtesy @Ankit Kumar
US, Delhi Begin Talks To Build Iconic F-16 Fighter Jets In India: Report | Page 2
 
@halupridol
Oh about EMALs i guess you did nt see a link by @Ankit Kumar ..

View attachment 294851

Now thats Yusuf whose posting it .. Lol


Here from the article :
But as per the terms of reference for the JWGACTC "only conventional propulsion systems" (gas turbines or diesel-electric systems) are under discussion as of now. "The US has its own export control laws... nuclear propulsion is not on the table," said an MoD source.

article link
India, US talk aircraft carrier technology, but key point off the menu - The Economic Times

post link courtesy @Ankit Kumar
US, Delhi Begin Talks To Build Iconic F-16 Fighter Jets In India: Report | Page 2
but according to my source we r actively seeking emals n nuc prop,,,well we will have to wait,,,at present India n US r not tight enuff,,,might not be same when Chinese navy arrives at Gwadar in near future.
 
but you may be facing j 20 which is going to squat your su 30 like flies due to its huge rcs while f18 has low rcs due to encased weapons and have much better ew then any of the 6 mmrca jets in its growler configuration.its the only 4 gen jet that can survive 5 gen jet's attack and hurt them back.rest its your money your choice.

I think mate....Growler version of F18 is not for export.... Plz check.. To get Growler if offered and cleared by US congress... India has to sign too many agreements.
I think it's best to avoid Growler and without Growler, F18 SH is an average plane... Su35 is cheaper and more capable. If we have to dump rafale ( that is highly unlikely), why we should buy F18, we will buy a equally capable aircraft like Su 35 for airsuperiority or Su34 for ground attack.. A order of 100 each to Russia and we will get great discount and may be two nuclear sub on lease...
U can keep your F18 and give it as aid to pak..

That's what Even I thought after hearing what source said.. But I also doubt the ecosystem talks and parallel wordings...

I don't know even know If light fighter potential estimate of 400 and Gripen meeting 50% of it is how far making sense..

Essentially Boeing or Saab all want minimum 200 orders..

I don think such big numbers cut through unless of course MK2 program is delayed by a huge margin and Rafale MII also falls apart..

Sadly everybody is just jumping on one bluff of DM MP

See Parik, there is scope of requirement of about 500 jets in medium term with IAF and about 200-250 odd with IN..

By 2030, IAF needs 45 sqn ( if 20/sqn) about 900 planes...
By 2030, it will have
Su30.. 15-17 sqn...310-350planes..
FGFA.. 2-3 sqn.. 40-60
LCA Mk1a.. 6sqn ..120
MIG/Jag/Mirage.. 9sqn.. 180
Rafale..3 sqn...54
Total of 704-764...
Hence a deficiency of 140-200 planes..

Add to it the phasing out of 9sqn of MIG29/mirage/Jags.. The total need is 320-380 aircrafts by 2035..

Assume IAF buy 140 more Rafales... There is still requirement of 180-240 planes.. Even if Gripen gets order of 140-160 planes it's good enuf for them... Rest 40-80 can be LCA mk2(if IAF want) or AMCA (if entered in sqn service by 2035. Also... There is talk of increasing authorised sqn strength to 60sqn... If that happens add 300 more planes..

For IN...
LCA Mk2 is supported by IN but gripen is pitching for carrier version. If Gripen comes... This is where it harms most on N-AMCA development.
IN needs more than 250 jets
40 each for Vikramaditya and vikrant.. Mig29/NLCA
60 rafale each for Vishal class*2..
Also they need Aircraft for A&N and their base defences ... About 3 sqn strength minimum..60
So total requirement is about 260 jets.. If IN goes for rafale ..it's minimum of 150 .. And rest 50-60 can either be NLCA or gripen...

That is what SAAB is looking at 140 odd for IAF and 60 odd for IN.. And it's 200.. Export order and new order due to increase in sqn strength is additional..
Rafale MII line..will touch 300 aircraft requirement combined excluding export by 2035...( If AMCA is delayed or sqn strength is increased) or else 200 is minimum confirmed.
 
but according to my source we r actively seeking emals n nuc prop,,,well we will have to wait,,,at present India n US r not tight enuff,,,might not be same when Chinese navy arrives at Gwadar in near future.
Just a small problem of reliability you will loss 4 time the normal number of plane.
The EMALS catapult replaced the steam-powered catapult system, and has had its share of problems. By the time aircraft compatibility tests ended in April 2014, and more than 3,000 dead-load launches were added to the mix, EMALS had a reliability rate of 240 launches without failure. That was far short of the 1,250 launches the system should have been hitting at that point.
EMALS fizzles in first public launch aboard the Ford
 
@halupridol
Oh about EMALs i guess you did nt see a link by @Ankit Kumar ..

View attachment 294851

Now thats Yusuf whose posting it .. Lol


Here from the article :
But as per the terms of reference for the JWGACTC "only conventional propulsion systems" (gas turbines or diesel-electric systems) are under discussion as of now. "The US has its own export control laws... nuclear propulsion is not on the table," said an MoD source.

article link
India, US talk aircraft carrier technology, but key point off the menu - The Economic Times

post link courtesy @Ankit Kumar
US, Delhi Begin Talks To Build Iconic F-16 Fighter Jets In India: Report | Page 2

Quoting Gessler from other forums regarding the same news...

" I think there has been much jumping of the gun by the reporters here. There was never any plan or hope to receive nuclear propulsion technology from US. The only reason why the US is being brought onboard is because of the EMALS technology that we wish to incorporate into our future carriers. That's it.

Reason for groups like the JWGACTC to be formed is because the incorporation of concepts like EMALS includes a significant level of technology-sharing (not necessarily transfer) and local capacity-building measures and infrastructure consultancy. The JWG is the body that's going to assess all these needs and prepare reports.

The US already supplies the propulsion for conventional carriers like the under-construction IAC-1 Vikrant, which uses the General Electric LM2500+ gas turbines. There is talk of a 2nd Vikrant-class carrier (nothing finalized yet) so the topic may have been related to that.

IAC-2's nuclear propulsion was always meant to be indigenous, there is simply no other way. BARC & DAE are already working on improved reactors for future nuclear submarines, going forward from the Arihant's propulsion, and now the carrier reactor project will also be pursued. It's going to take some time, but as far as IAC-2 is concerned, we have quite a lot of time. "
 
One more theory coming out now...

Seems UAE 60 jets deal and Indian Rafale deals are connected.

UAEAF is inclined to procure—just like India—the Rafale MMRCAs & Scorpene SSKs as well & therefore Indian human resource assistance becomes imperative. Furthermore, if a an Indian private-sector company teams up with its UAE counterpart (which has access to the UAE’s sovereign wealth investment funds) to assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF, then this becomes a win-win situation from a financial standpoint. This is what has been going on behind-the-scenes & that’s why negotiations have been protractive. In the coming months all this will come to light, rest assured.

- Prasun K Sengupta

Comments

@Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @randomradio @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @raktaka @cerberus @others

Now does PSK mean to say that UAE Rafales or Indian Rafales will be made in Indian line only.. He used the words "assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF"

If True its a clear indication that UAE customized version Rafale and Indian customize version Rafale will share many similarities. So is it hinting both may have similar new M88 engine of same thrust? I thought Indian Rafales will have around 83-85 Kn (8.3-8.5T)thrust and UAE will have 90 Kn.. Or both parties have agreed for the new Safran engine of 8.3T-8.5T.. Or perhaps India has agreed like UAE the 9 Tonnes or 89-90Kn engine thrust.


I know PSK cannot be taken on face value.. But if his words have any true indication, does not that indicate what we have discussed before..

You remember the sheet i pasted before

upload_2016-2-22_12-39-16.png


Is it not in a manner like saying 60 export orders are assured...

So in best case scenario or medium case scenario, the export potential line within MII can actually give UAE their 60 orders within 4+ years to max 7+ years.

If this case is true, then DA will get a big boost in one more order from say Malaysia who follows Indian orders a lot..

That can assure a squadron of 16 unit sales surely keeping alive the MII line export part for 1 year under best case to 2 years under medium case.

Essentially does that not mean the line installation cost for India may also come down owing to say small % cost say like max 20-25% being borne by UAE and a similar amount for new ongoing engine development too..

Is that the real deal which requires time as feedback has to come from say some customers like UAE and some verbal talks from say Malaysia?

This development is making me wonder multiple scenarios...But i can surely see lots of cost benefit as well as long term benefit out of this...

After all recently UAE Adnoc investment in oil reserves in ISPRL and commitment for $75 Bn investment are all showing an upswing in our strategic relations..... So can this lead to such a military cooperation situation?

This just puts us onto a superb new scenario situation.. Pls do comment gentlemen... its a "IF" situation but still a "possibility"

@Armani : Gessler words are always good.. He is a keen follower of PSK's Blog.. I keep reading his interactions there with PSK who is very fond of him.... I read a lot of his post from the past in here in PDF.. But dont know why he is now not active.. i cant seems to tag him too.. Perhaps he is serving a long forced holiday.. Do let him know many of his friends are waiting for him to come over here and add his views....
 
3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine
6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems
10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene

I am telling this since from many months that abandon this Rafale deal, we are getting robbed.

We have NO REASON WITH US TO ACQUIRE IT. Bying rafale @270 million/per piece will be the biggest blunder in the Indian History.
 
One more theory coming out now...

Seems UAE 60 jets deal and Indian Rafale deals are connected.

UAEAF is inclined to procure—just like India—the Rafale MMRCAs & Scorpene SSKs as well & therefore Indian human resource assistance becomes imperative. Furthermore, if a an Indian private-sector company teams up with its UAE counterpart (which has access to the UAE’s sovereign wealth investment funds) to assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF, then this becomes a win-win situation from a financial standpoint. This is what has been going on behind-the-scenes & that’s why negotiations have been protractive. In the coming months all this will come to light, rest assured.

- Prasun K Sengupta

Comments

@Picdelamirand-oil @Vauban @Taygibay @Abingdonboy @randomradio @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @raktaka @cerberus @others

Now does PSK mean to say that UAE Rafales or Indian Rafales will be made in Indian line only.. He used the words "assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF"

If True its a clear indication that UAE customized version Rafale and Indian customize version Rafale will share many similarities. So is it hinting both may have similar new M88 engine of same thrust? I thought Indian Rafales will have around 83-85 Kn (8.3-8.5T)thrust and UAE will have 90 Kn.. Or both parties have agreed for the new Safran engine of 8.3T-8.5T.. Or perhaps India has agreed like UAE the 9 Tonnes or 89-90Kn engine thrust.


I know PSK cannot be taken on face value.. But if his words have any true indication, does not that indicate what we have discussed before..

You remember the sheet i pasted before

View attachment 294913

Is it not in a manner like saying 60 export orders are assured...

So in best case scenario or medium case scenario, the export potential line within MII can actually give UAE their 60 orders within 4+ years to max 7+ years.

If this case is true, then DA will get a big boost in one more order from say Malaysia who follows Indian orders a lot..

That can assure a squadron of 16 unit sales surely keeping alive the MII line export part for 1 year under best case to 2 years under medium case.

Essentially does that not mean the line installation cost for India may also come down owing to say small % cost say like max 20-25% being borne by UAE and a similar amount for new ongoing engine development too..

Is that the real deal which requires time as feedback has to come from say some customers like UAE and some verbal talks from say Malaysia?

This development is making me wonder multiple scenarios...But i can surely see lots of cost benefit as well as long term benefit out of this...

After all recently UAE Adnoc investment in oil reserves in ISPRL and commitment for $75 Bn investment are all showing an upswing in our strategic relations..... So can this lead to such a military cooperation situation?

This just puts us onto a superb new scenario situation.. Pls do comment gentlemen... its a "IF" situation but still a "possibility"

@Armani : Gessler words are always good.. He is a keen follower of PSK's Blog.. I keep reading his interactions there with PSK who is very fond of him.... I read a lot of his post from the past in here in PDF.. But dont know why he is now not active.. i cant seems to tag him too.. Perhaps he is serving a long forced holiday.. Do let him know many of his friends are waiting for him to come over here and add his views....

This is very much possible. After all if UAE has offered us free oil for or strategic reserve then it makes imminent sense to gang up against the french and negotiate a better deal.

It will be a win-win-win situation. Which Modi as leader, anything is possible. :P
 
3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine
6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems
10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene

I am telling this since from many months that abandon this Rafale deal, we are getting robbed.

We have NO REASON WITH US TO ACQUIRE IT. Bying rafale @270 million/per piece will be the biggest blunder in the Indian History.

Kindly do provide a similar case like Rafale package of jets +weapons +support +spares +costomization +training +infra +others like so called F16s and F18s also

So that the same table of comparison can be updated

Pls also tell us how will we get Growlers?

Pls also enlighten us what will be the price for so called other jets in a same package scenario and compare to "$270Mn"

For your help and information.. a small but important detail

Quoting from the source
Management of Australia’s Air Combat Capability—F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet Fleet Upgrades and Sustainment
anao_logo.png


The RAAF’s 71 F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft are assigned to three operational squadrons and a training squadron.3 The Hornets entered service during the period 1985–90, and were originally planned to be withdrawn from service in 2010–15. However, Government decisions made in 2006 and 2009 extended the withdrawal period to 2017–20, and in May 2012 the need for a possible further extension arose, because of the Government’s decision to better align the delivery of Australia’s F-35A aircraft with the US Department of Defense’s F-35 production and acquisition schedule.4 Consequently, the precise timing of the F/A-18A/B withdrawal from service is dependent upon the delivery of the F-35A aircraft under schedules that are yet to be finalised.

The RAAF’s 24 F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft were acquired in 2010, and are operated in two squadrons.5 These aircraft replaced the RAAF’s 21 F-111 strike/reconnaissance aircraft, which were withdrawn from service in 2010.6 Currently, the Planned Withdrawal Date for the Super Hornets is 2025.


upload_2016-2-22_13-34-43.png



11. The audit examined:

• the sustainment aspects of the F/A-18A/B Hornet and F/A-18F Super Hornet fleets, including the achievement of specified operational availability; and
• the structural-refurbishment arrangements that provide a level of assurance that the F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft will remain serviceable until their current Planned Withdrawal Date of 2020

18. The most recent additions to the RAAF’s air combat capability are the 24 Super Hornets that were progressively delivered to RAAF Base Amberley, near Brisbane, between March 2010 and October 2011. The Super Hornet acquisition and its in-service support are largely based on US Government Foreign Military Sales arrangements that are designed to maximise commonality with US Navy F/A-18F sustainment arrangements. The RAAF’s F/A-18F Operational Maintenance squadrons are therefore organised as ‘pseudo’ deployed US Navy Super Hornet squadrons, drawing assistance from the supplier/repair-vendor network used by the US Navy.


However, the report outlines the significant risks that will require close management by Defence in the final stages of sustainment of the F/A-18A/B fleet in particular, when airframe hours flown and fatigue-life expended will be greatest.


53. To ensure that the Super Hornet fleet’s ongoing support and capability development occur cost effectively, Defence is seeking to maintain close commonality with the US Navy in terms of Super Hornet operation, maintenance and support. This is being achieved through a combination of commercial contracting and the acquisition of maintenance items and technical support via US Foreign Military Sales agreements.

54. However, at the time of the audit, the Super Hornet sustainment arrangements were in their formative stage, and adjustments were ongoing. At times, Tactical Fighter SPO has been unable to fulfil the squadrons’ demands for maintenance spares within specified timeframes. This has affected the availability of aircraft as specified in Materiel Sustainment Agreements between the RAAF and DMO.


Audit brochure

So F18F superhornet fleet for 10 years cost in USD is approximately USD 180 Mn/Jet and as points indicate the support package and other spares is an issue as its not a part of the original deal..
Infrastructure which for Rafales cost a almost Euro 1Bn+ is already there for Australia for older F18 A/B
And IAF wanted a package deal for 40 years life in sustainment clause..

Important to note last point states
Tactical Fighter SPO has been unable to fulfil the squadrons’ demands for maintenance spares within specified timeframes. This has affected the availability of aircraft as specified in Materiel Sustainment Agreements between the RAAF and DMO.


if you add up the T&C for rafales as asked by India for F18s and also add Infrastructure base setup cost as well as Local MRO (Australia uses directly USN MRO) you will see cost ballooning to humongous "$270Mn" like figure only....

Don go by just figures as quoted by media bro, the truth is not as rosy as everybody depicts.. It holds true for Rafales it also holds true for LM or Boeing Jets or even Saab jets
 
Last edited:
3 Rafales = AK-47s for entire police force
4 Rafales = 1 nuclear powered submarine
6 Rafales = 400 light helicopters K-226T or Ecureil
8 Rafales = 4 S-400 systems
10 Rafales = 1 aircraft carrier ...
36 Rafales = 18 Scorpene

I am telling this since from many months that abandon this Rafale deal, we are getting robbed.

We have NO REASON WITH US TO ACQUIRE IT. Bying rafale @270 million/per piece will be the biggest blunder in the Indian History.

The cheapest so called contender , Gripen... its C/D version in 2012 costed 110 million US dollars at fly away cost without any weapons, Training , TOT , reinvestment or local assembly.

So estimate how much a NG with weapons and all the package in 2018 will cost ?

Mark it, not less than 200 million dollars.

I am not trying to favour Rafale, but just stating that if we want a western platform then, cheap is not an option.

If we want 60 million dollars with everything, then MIG is waiting for us.
 
The cheapest so called contender , Gripen... its C/D version in 2012 costed 110 million US dollars at fly away cost without any weapons, Training , TOT , reinvestment or local assembly.

So estimate how much a NG with weapons and all the package in 2018 will cost ?

Mark it, not less than 200 million dollars.

I am not trying to favour Rafale, but just stating that if we want a western platform then, cheap is not an option.

If we want 60 million dollars with everything, then MIG is waiting for us.
thats exactly what im saying all along ditch this MRCA mindest and go for tejas with latest radar and EW/ACM suits and LDP and smart long range satnd off munations and take israeli help as they are masters of jugar and making old obsolete fighters a mighty monster and keep inducting Mig35s with israeli radar and avionicks and Su30MKI till FGFA/PAKFA arrive and work on AMCA in war footing niether we are cash rich arab states or europeans or americans we need to get things in low budget and we can do it stop wasting money on rafales or hornets or vipers and make our own effort work out like what china does as they say your enemy is often your best teacher cheers mate

Kindly do provide a similar case like Rafale package of jets +weapons +support +spares +costomization +training +infra +others like so called F16s and F18s also

So that the same table of comparison can be updated

Pls also tell us how will we get Growlers?

Pls also enlighten us what will be the price for so called other jets in a same package scenario and compare to "$270Mn"

For your help and information.. a small but important detail

Quoting from the source
Management of Australia’s Air Combat Capability—F/A-18 Hornet and Super Hornet Fleet Upgrades and Sustainment
anao_logo.png


The RAAF’s 71 F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft are assigned to three operational squadrons and a training squadron.3 The Hornets entered service during the period 1985–90, and were originally planned to be withdrawn from service in 2010–15. However, Government decisions made in 2006 and 2009 extended the withdrawal period to 2017–20, and in May 2012 the need for a possible further extension arose, because of the Government’s decision to better align the delivery of Australia’s F-35A aircraft with the US Department of Defense’s F-35 production and acquisition schedule.4 Consequently, the precise timing of the F/A-18A/B withdrawal from service is dependent upon the delivery of the F-35A aircraft under schedules that are yet to be finalised.

The RAAF’s 24 F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft were acquired in 2010, and are operated in two squadrons.5 These aircraft replaced the RAAF’s 21 F-111 strike/reconnaissance aircraft, which were withdrawn from service in 2010.6 Currently, the Planned Withdrawal Date for the Super Hornets is 2025.


View attachment 294915


11. The audit examined:

• the sustainment aspects of the F/A-18A/B Hornet and F/A-18F Super Hornet fleets, including the achievement of specified operational availability; and
• the structural-refurbishment arrangements that provide a level of assurance that the F/A-18A/B Hornet aircraft will remain serviceable until their current Planned Withdrawal Date of 2020

18. The most recent additions to the RAAF’s air combat capability are the 24 Super Hornets that were progressively delivered to RAAF Base Amberley, near Brisbane, between March 2010 and October 2011. The Super Hornet acquisition and its in-service support are largely based on US Government Foreign Military Sales arrangements that are designed to maximise commonality with US Navy F/A-18F sustainment arrangements. The RAAF’s F/A-18F Operational Maintenance squadrons are therefore organised as ‘pseudo’ deployed US Navy Super Hornet squadrons, drawing assistance from the supplier/repair-vendor network used by the US Navy.


However, the report outlines the significant risks that will require close management by Defence in the final stages of sustainment of the F/A-18A/B fleet in particular, when airframe hours flown and fatigue-life expended will be greatest.


53. To ensure that the Super Hornet fleet’s ongoing support and capability development occur cost effectively, Defence is seeking to maintain close commonality with the US Navy in terms of Super Hornet operation, maintenance and support. This is being achieved through a combination of commercial contracting and the acquisition of maintenance items and technical support via US Foreign Military Sales agreements.

54. However, at the time of the audit, the Super Hornet sustainment arrangements were in their formative stage, and adjustments were ongoing. At times, Tactical Fighter SPO has been unable to fulfil the squadrons’ demands for maintenance spares within specified timeframes. This has affected the availability of aircraft as specified in Materiel Sustainment Agreements between the RAAF and DMO.


Audit brochure

So F18F superhornet fleet for 10 years cost in USD is approximately USD 180 Mn/Jet and as points indicate the support package and other spares is an issue as its not a part of the original deal..
Infrastructure which for Rafales cost a almost Euro 1Bn+ is already there for Australia for older F18 A/B
And IAF wanted a package deal for 40 years life in sustainment clause..

Important to note last point states
Tactical Fighter SPO has been unable to fulfil the squadrons’ demands for maintenance spares within specified timeframes. This has affected the availability of aircraft as specified in Materiel Sustainment Agreements between the RAAF and DMO.


if you add up the T&C for rafales as asked by India for F18s and also add Infrastructure base setup cost as well as Local MRO (Australia uses directly USN MRO) you will see cost ballooning to humongous "$270Mn" like figure only....

Don go by just figures as quoted by media bro, the truth is not as rosy as everybody depicts.. It holds true for Rafales it also holds true for LM or Boeing Jets or even Saab jets
sorry-shaktimaan.jpg


forgive my ignorance sirji but why do we have to project the rates on life cycle base with all training and feul and maintaince ect ect ?

even if rafale is "cheap" or "worth every penny" why should we go for it only why not induce more fulkrums and falnkers and give them better engines , radars , EW suits and weapons like spice & paveway series ?

hope you understand its way too late for 4th or 4.5+ gen fighter when china is already in final phase of testing two 5th gen fighter . cheers mate :coffee:

last but not the least no one i mean no one will give there latest research and technologies to us just cause we happen to be there biggest potential coustmors we need to make owr own effort worthwhile there is no short cut to success ... period
 
The cheapest so called contender , Gripen... its C/D version in 2012 costed 110 million US dollars at fly away cost without any weapons, Training , TOT , reinvestment or local assembly.

So estimate how much a NG with weapons and all the package in 2018 will cost ?

Mark it, not less than 200 million dollars.

I am not trying to favour Rafale, but just stating that if we want a western platform then, cheap is not an option.

If we want 60 million dollars with everything, then MIG is waiting for us.
Buy MIG then at least we can add 4 for every Rafael we buy
 
forgive my ignorance sirji but why do we have to project the rates on life cycle base with all training and feul and maintaince ect ect ?

even if rafale is "cheap" or "worth every penny" why should we go for it only why not induce more fulkrums and falnkers and give them better engines , radars , EW suits and weapons like spice & paveway series ?

hope you understand its way too late for 4th or 4.5+ gen fighter when china is already in final phase of testing two 5th gen fighter . cheers mate :coffee:

Bhai ji,

None of the discussion is about LCC...
Effectively its still the simple calculation where jets+weapons is less than Rs 800 Crs as per Hindu newspaper and closer to 720 Crs as per source based. Thats approx Euro 90-100 Mn per jet+weapons..or Euro 3.6 Bn for 36 Jets+Weapons

The rest is the support+infra package part with a bigger payment for customization.. You know right Rafale M88 Jet is 75Kn thrust we are trying to get a 83-85 Kn thrust or may be even same as UAE ones of 9T thrust.. So thats a cost addition which will mean we are looking for a bigger fleet not just 36..

The idea of not selecting Su35 or Mig35 is bcz we want to look at other options in western economies than put all eggs in Russian military hardwares..

We did increase MKis by 40 and eventually i have a strong feeling we will order another tranche perhaps in super configuration later and take MKI closer to 350 from present 312 (272+40). The super MKI will be almost at par with the 35s of Russia..

The 4.5th Gen will not go away for another 50 years.. The reason being barring F22 none of the platforms are matured and will take another decade to mature minimum.. On top 5th gen engines are not yet ready including Chinese 5th gen jets.. Moreover 5th gen needs lots of high maintenance and essentially operating a humongous fleet requires economic prosperity. Thats why for India to have a huge 5th gen fleet needs time for our economic growth to sustain that level.. Their availability to be high in 75% requires very huge cost needs and long time in hangers for preparing them for next sortie..

Thats why we require a strong 4.5th gen fleet..
 
@PARIKRAMA @GURU DUTT and @others:

I have been following this whole saga since last week or so with very keen interest ( let me make myself clear in beginning that I don't belong to any aircraft lobby :-)). We have few things well known at this juncture:
  • IAF need Aircrafts very urgently as lot of Migs to be retired in next few years.
  • Tejas MK2 is not gonna enter service in minimum 8 Years (Not before 2024 as per DRDO so, minimum by 2027).
  • Tejas MK 1 or MK1A will not be produced more than 120 by 2025.
  • SAAB is just doing a bluff they can't transfer meaningful techs as they are outsourcing it for themselves and also this will spell doom for homegrown LCA.
  • F-16/ F-18s will come with lot of strings and not with sensitive techs which India needs. Also, it can't be used for nuke deliveries as earlier posted in this thread.
  • IAF is bent on having western aircraft for higher availability and thus either Rafale or Typhoon fits the bill but both are very expensive thus resulting in whole MMRCA delays.
So, what should be done to address depleting squadron numbers?

I would suggest to persist with Rafale for all its benefits but as this is taking its own time, explore another options as well.

Let's keep negotiations for 36 + 18 Rafales as well as make in India part but in the meantime turn to Russia for second line (not USA for F series or SAAB).
I read somewhere that Mig is willing to ensure 75-80% of average availability for MIG-35. Hence, similar to MIG-29 UPG lines, 60 MIG-35 planes can be ordered for Airforce and same production line may be used for further Navy orders for IAC-1 and IAC-2 as well. This will guarantee minimum order of 120 MIG-35/MIG-29KUBs for that production line and hence will justify the cost of setting up that line with a Private player as well (same was hinted by MIG CEO).
Mig CEO Sergei Korotkov said that Indian Air Force and Indian Ministry of Defence (MOD) never officially debriefed Mig Corporation, why its Mig-35 fighter jet offered under MMRCA Contract was eliminated and what were technical reasons for its ouster from MMRCA Race.

Korotkov also said that Indian Air force which also operates large numbers of upgraded Mig-29UPG will need minimal training and infrastructure and logistics changes to adopt Mig-35 into its operational service by Indian Air force.

Apart from MIG-35 additional 40 SU-30MKI speculated will bring the numbers to minimum 100 extra jets in same time period at a lower cost. This will be in parallel to Rafale saga and say india only purchases 54 Rafales (worst case) then, MIG-35 numbers can be increased for IAF based on their requirements. If this is followed then, we will have 60+40+54(MIG-35, SU-30MKI and Rafale respectively) by 2025 without much loss in quality and also with lesser budget.. a win-win for MOD as saved money can be routed to say.. AMCA or FGFA project. Thus, IAF will be happy, Navy also happy and it bodes well with Make in India as well.

Please share your thoughts on this considering it as an alternate approach to fix the sqdn numbers.
 
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