Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[GURU DUTT]

@PARIKRAMA @GURU DUTT and @others:

I

Apart from MIG-35 additional 40 SU-30MKI speculated will bring the numbers to minimum 100 extra jets in same time period at a lower cost. This will be in parallel to Rafale saga and say india only purchases 54 Rafales (worst case) then, MIG-35 numbers can be increased for IAF based on their requirements. If this is followed then, we will have 60+40+54(MIG-35, SU-30MKI and Rafale respectively) by 2025 without much loss in quality and also with lesser budget.. a win-win for MOD as saved money can be routed to say.. AMCA or FGFA project. Thus, IAF will be happy, Navy also happy and it bodes well with Make in India as well.

Please share your thoughts on this considering it as an alternate approach to fix the sqdn numbers.

totally agreed 100% with that its the best way forward and keep working on AMCA & AURA

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

@PARIKRAMA @GURU DUTT and @others:

I have been following this whole saga since last week or so with very keen interest ( let me make myself clear in beginning that I don't belong to any aircraft lobby ). We have few things well known at this juncture:

• IAF need Aircrafts very urgently as lot of Migs to be retired in next few years.
• Tejas MK2 is not gonna enter service in minimum 8 Years (Not before 2024 as per DRDO so, minimum by 2027).
• Tejas MK 1 or MK1A will not be produced more than 120 by 2025.
• SAAB is just doing a bluff they can't transfer meaningful techs as they are outsourcing it for themselves and also this will spell doom for homegrown LCA.
• F-16/ F-18s will come with lot of strings and not with sensitive techs which India needs. Also, it can't be used for nuke deliveries as earlier posted in this thread.
• IAF is bent on having western aircraft for higher availability and thus either Rafale or Typhoon fits the bill but both are very expensive thus resulting in whole MMRCA delays.

So, what should be done to address depleting squadron numbers?

I would suggest to persist with Rafale for all its benefits but as this is taking its own time, explore another options as well.

Lets keep negotiations for 36 + 18 Rafales as well as make in India part but i meantime turn to Russia for second line (not USA for F series or SAAB).
I read somewhere that Mig is willing to ensure 75-80% of average availability for MIG-35. Hence, similar to MIG-29 UPG lines, 60 MIG-35 planes can be ordered for Airforce and same line may be used for further Navy orders for IAC-1 and IAC-2 as well. This will guarantee minimum order of 120 MIG-35/MIG-29KUBs for that production line and hence will
justify the cost of setting up that line with a Private player as well (same was hinted by MIG CEO).


Apart from MIG-35 additional 40 SU-30MKI speculated will bring the numbers to minimum 100 extra jets in same time period at a lower cost. This will be in parallel to Rafale saga and say india only purchases 54 Rafales (worst case) then, MIG-35 numbers can be increased for IAF based on their requirements. If this is followed then, we will have 60+40+54(MIG-35, SU-30MKI and Rafale respectively) by 2025 without much loss in quality and also with lesser budget.. a win-win for MOD as saved money can be routed to say.. AMCA or FGFA project. Thus, IAF will be happy, Navy also happy and it bodes well with Make in India as well.

Please share your thoughts on this considering it as an alternate approach to fix the sqdn numbers.

I think the Mig-35 is one of the best Russian fighter to fit the bill of MMRCA.The problem could be on availability and life expectancy of Engine, EW suite compare to Rafale, survivability in deep penetration, nuclear role also but if ypu have 54 Rafale it's not critical.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA @GURU DUTT and @others:

I have been following this whole saga since last week or so with very keen interest ( let me make myself clear in beginning that I don't belong to any aircraft lobby ). We have few things well known at this juncture:

• IAF need Aircrafts very urgently as lot of Migs to be retired in next few years.
• Tejas MK2 is not gonna enter service in minimum 8 Years (Not before 2024 as per DRDO so, minimum by 2027).
• Tejas MK 1 or MK1A will not be produced more than 120 by 2025.
• SAAB is just doing a bluff they can't transfer meaningful techs as they are outsourcing it for themselves and also this will spell doom for homegrown LCA.
• F-16/ F-18s will come with lot of strings and not with sensitive techs which India needs. Also, it can't be used for nuke deliveries as earlier posted in this thread.
• IAF is bent on having western aircraft for higher availability and thus either Rafale or Typhoon fits the bill but both are very expensive thus resulting in whole MMRCA delays.

So, what should be done to address depleting squadron numbers?

I would suggest to persist with Rafale for all its benefits but as this is taking its own time, explore another options as well.

Lets keep negotiations for 36 + 18 Rafales as well as make in India part but i meantime turn to Russia for second line (not USA for F series or SAAB).
I read somewhere that Mig is willing to ensure 75-80% of average availability for MIG-35. Hence, similar to MIG-29 UPG lines, 60 MIG-35 planes can be ordered for Airforce and same line may be used for further Navy orders for IAC-1 and IAC-2 as well. This will guarantee minimum order of 120 MIG-35/MIG-29KUBs for that production line and hence will
justify the cost of setting up that line with a Private player as well (same was hinted by MIG CEO).


Apart from MIG-35 additional 40 SU-30MKI speculated will bring the numbers to minimum 100 extra jets in same time period at a lower cost. This will be in parallel to Rafale saga and say india only purchases 54 Rafales (worst case) then, MIG-35 numbers can be increased for IAF based on their requirements. If this is followed then, we will have 60+40+54(MIG-35, SU-30MKI and Rafale respectively) by 2025 without much loss in quality and also with lesser budget.. a win-win for MOD as saved money can be routed to say.. AMCA or FGFA project. Thus, IAF will be happy, Navy also happy and it bodes well with Make in India as well.

Please share your thoughts on this considering it as an alternate approach to fix the sqdn numbers.

If i understand a similar view was shared by @randomradio who had quoted a very nominal figure for Russian jets owing to Ruble value depreciation.

I am sure DM Mp is fully aware of such technicalities... I presume there could be a chance that instead of say 60 Mig35s instead directly another 40-60 Jets of Su 30 in super configuration may directly come from Russia. That gives benefit of cost as well as time as the first deployed Super config MKIs provide the base for other 312 MKis (already produced and under production plan).

The issue in hand is Mig35/Su35 any of the induction will require additional doctrine changes... I suppose anything that Mig35/Su35 can do a similar capability may be in super config Su 30 MKI.. I have been hearing that same MKI engine in AL 31 family a new variant with longer engine life and lesser maintenance is being discussed. This actually reduces associated cost and other technical changes required for engine upgrades.. But i dont know if its accepted or a new engine of Su35 is being planned..

I do agree we will have a shortfall..and thats has to be addressed progressively.. About buying Mig 35s, i dont think we may agree to it.. Perhaps who knows we may in fact opt for PAKFA stage 1 present variant off the shelf 60 also in place of Mig35s to get us a pseudo 5th Gen..

What i am implying to say is Russian option is available.. Whther MOD takes that option or not, it has to be seen.. But i would put more money on MKI upgraded Super form directly from Russia instead of say Mig35s or Su35s.. Reason being MKI we know things better than others.. Mig35 we have to start from scratch again... Especially the strategies, tactics and doctrines which will take at least 5 years plus for pilots to master and mature for optimum mission efficiency..

 

[GURU DUTT]

If i understand a similar view was shared by @randomradio . Mig35 we have to start from scratch again... Especially the strategies, tactics and doctrines which will take at least 5 years plus for pilots to master and mature for optimum mission efficiency..

wrong i mean partly we are using upgraded Mig29 and Mig29K hence we have full knowledge of the basic fighter and its capabillities + have all the weapons and maintainence and training infra as fulkrums are in IAF for three decades now while we have flankers for 15 years at least so we save hell lot of money and instead of russian ZHUK-AE we can opt for EL2052 from day one on Mig35s with mix of russian and israeli weapons and some israeli and russian and indian sub systems

 

[PARIKRAMA]

wrong i mean partly we are using upgraded Mig29 and Mig29K hence we have full knowledge of the basic fighter and its capabillities + have all the weapons and maintainence and training infra as fulkrums are in IAF for three decades now while we have flankers for 15 years at least so we save hell lot of money and instead of russian ZHUK-AE we can opt for EL2052 from day one on Mig35s with mix of russian and israeli weapons and some israeli and russian and indian sub systems

Are you sure we can replace Zhuk AE with 2052 from Day 1? Then the jet has to be happy with Israeli Missiles of Derby/Python combo.. Russian missile integration will require customization with either a universal bus or a in between converter.. But yes thats a possibility no doubt..

The earlier 29s and 29Ks are different birds from Mig 35s..

The Mig-29M2 is a new family with a new airframe structure... the Mig-29K2 is based on it, as is the basic Mig-29M2, and the advanced Mig-35S. Just the same as in the 1980s the Mig-29M was a new build aircraft that the original Mig-29K was based upon too.

The original Mig-29 had a separate structure, with an outer skin. The fuel tanks were separate tanks placed inside the structure under the skin.

The Mig-29M used wielded outer skin panels so separate internal fuel tanks were no longer necessary... the separate sections were sealed off and could be used for fuel or components without extra layers needed, so it was much lighter structurally. The new Mig-29M2s are further developments of the Mig-29M, with the new airframe shape that was standard between the single and twin seater.

In terms of role and missions
IAF 29s are primarily an Air superiority platform whom IAF has prominently used as a second line of air dominance after Su30 MKI. Its also used for for Defensive Counter Air missions and Fighter escorts missions

MiG-35 but are more "role-specific" with pronounced qualities for Area Interdiction/Deep Air Support and Defensive Counter Air (DCA) missions. This implies a better A2G mission capability than Mig 29s of first point

If you are comparing it with say Rafale and pitting them as Rafale replacements then we have to understand Rafale is a very efficient multirole aircraft showing an high level of efficiency in almost any modern operational task and with very strong points in SEAD missions and area control. Its referred inside IAF more as TASA (Tactical Air Strike Aircraft).

Both Mig 35 and Rafale according to multiple experts show a very high level of survivability thanks to quality EW defensive suit, good low corner speed and enviable kinematical capabilities at transonic to mid-supersonic speed regimes.

Thus Mig35 will need new roles and will require new strategies and capability development.

Thats why its base of operations will be different from present infrastructure maintenance for 29s and so will be the weapons, munitions and its training+ maintenance..


Note:
As from Wikipedia
Air interdiction (AI), also known as deep air support (DAS), is the use of aircraft to attack tactical ground targets that are not in close proximity to friendly ground forces. It differs from close air support because it does not directly support ground operations and is not closely coordinated with ground units. Unlike strategic bombing, air interdiction is not meant as an independent air campaign, as its ultimate purpose is to aid ground operations rather than to defeat the enemy by air poweralone.

The purpose of air interdiction is to delay, disrupt, or destroy enemy forces or supplies en route to the battle area before they can engage friendly forces. Even at such degree, a distinction is often made between strategic and tactical interdiction; strategic operations are broad and long-term, while tactical operations are designed to affect events rapidly and in a localized area.
Air interdiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[GURU DUTT]

Are you sure we can replace Zhuk AE with 2052 from Day 1? Then the jet has to be happy with Israeli Missiles of Derby/Python combo.. Russian missile integration will require customization with either a universal bus or a in between converter.. But yes thats a possibility no doubt..

The earlier 29s and 29Ks are different birds from Mig 35s..

The Mig-29M2 is a new family with a new airframe structure... the Mig-29K2 is based on it, as is the basic Mig-29M2, and the advanced Mig-35S. Just the same as in the 1980s the Mig-29M was a new build aircraft that the original Mig-29K was based upon too.

The original Mig-29 had a separate structure, with an outer skin. The fuel tanks were separate tanks placed inside the structure under the skin.

The Mig-29M used wielded outer skin panels so separate internal fuel tanks were no longer necessary... the separate sections were sealed off and could be used for fuel or components without extra layers needed, so it was much lighter structurally. The new Mig-29M2s are further developments of the Mig-29M, with the new airframe shape that was standard between the single and twin seater.

In terms of role and missions
IAF 29s are primarily an Air superiority platform whom IAF has prominently used as a second line of air dominance after Su30 MKI. Its also used for for Defensive Counter Air missions and Fighter escorts missions

MiG-35 but are more "role-specific" with pronounced qualities for Area Interdiction/Deep Air Support and Defensive Counter Air (DCA) missions. This implies a better A2G mission capability than Mig 29s of first point

If you are comparing it with say Rafale and pitting them as Rafale replacements then we have to understand Rafale is a very efficient multirole aircraft showing an high level of efficiency in almost any modern operational task and with very strong points in SEAD missions and area control. Its referred inside IAF more as TASA (Tactical Air Strike Aircraft).

Both Mig 35 and Rafale according to multiple experts show a very high level of survivability thanks to quality EW defensive suit, good low corner speed and enviable kinematical capabilities at transonic to mid-supersonic speed regimes.

Thus Mig35 will need new roles and will require new strategies and capability development.

Thats why its base of operations will be different from present infrastructure maintenance for 29s and so will be the weapons, munitions and its training+ maintenance..


Note:
As from Wikipedia
Air interdiction (AI), also known as deep air support (DAS), is the use of aircraft to attack tactical ground targets that are not in close proximity to friendly ground forces. It differs from close air support because it does not directly support ground operations and is not closely coordinated with ground units. Unlike strategic bombing, air interdiction is not meant as an independent air campaign, as its ultimate purpose is to aid ground operations rather than to defeat the enemy by air poweralone.

The purpose of air interdiction is to delay, disrupt, or destroy enemy forces or supplies en route to the battle area before they can engage friendly forces. Even at such degree, a distinction is often made between strategic and tactical interdiction; strategic operations are broad and long-term, while tactical operations are designed to affect events rapidly and in a localized area.
Air interdiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

all that was a great read but the point is Mig35 is upgraded Mig29 with a modular cunstruction and electronicks , avionicks and some other features .... great

rafale is new breed made specially with air to ground role as primarry ovjective with equal importence to self survivability

now what IAF has ... well it does have jags for ground attack and Mig35s with better engines and "iff possible israeli AESA" from day one will surely cut the costs down and with external LITENING LDP and a better avionicks & sensor suite can get the job done cause point is we are not going to do ground attacks in tibet as chinese mainland is way out of reach to even MKIs so all air to ground SEAD & DEAD mostly will be done in pakistan for many reasons and thats the real trouble not china

as china will never directlly attack india for pakistan but if it does then we like it or not will go for LRBMs , LRCMs and nuclear tipped at that from the word go and then it will be end of sub continent and much of china so will china still attack india your guess is as good as mine

so in the end rafales or M35s or MKIs are for pakistan with a stand by role to stop chinese storm and for that you need deep air support or air interception and when it happens it will happen with J20s & J31s as the spear heads and only FGFA or AMCA or F35s will be able to hold it

so for time bieng we should go for 36 rafale 60-90 Mig35s and 312 MKIs and rest should be LCA MK1A and replace them with FGFA & AMCA & AURA as and when they come

 

[Techy]

The issue in hand is Mig35/Su35 any of the induction will require additional doctrine changes... I suppose anything that Mig35/Su35 can do a similar capability may be in super config Su 30 MKI.. I have been hearing that same MKI engine in AL 31 family a new variant with longer engine life and lesser maintenance is being discussed. This actually reduces associated cost and other technical changes required for engine upgrades.. But i dont know if its accepted or a new engine of Su35 is being planned..

I do agree we will have a shortfall..and thats has to be addressed progressively.. About buying Mig 35s, i dont think we may agree to it.. Perhaps who knows we may in fact opt for PAKFA stage 1 present variant off the shelf 60 also in place of Mig35s to get us a pseudo 5th Gen..

What i am implying to say is Russian option is available.. Whther MOD takes that option or not, it has to be seen.. But i would put more money on MKI upgraded Super form directly from Russia instead of say Mig35s or Su35s.. Reason being MKI we know things better than others.. Mig35 we have to start from scratch again... Especially the strategies, tactics and doctrines which will take at least 5 years plus for pilots to master and mature for optimum mission efficiency..

@PARIKRAMA Bro, I was suggesting MIGs as Make in India.. not any off the shelf purchase. If we are going for off the shelf option then more capable Su-34/35 series comes to picture along with PAK-FA mentioned by you. In case Rafale is taking more time then instead of other options available, MIG-35 locally with a private vender will be better option due to its commonality with IAF and IN Mig-29s (IN Migs are more closer to it). It won't need extra infra costs as we already have them placed for MIG-29UPG/KUB planes along with its spare supply chain. Only effort will be needed to customize that with some Israeli goodies and improve existing spare supply chain to have 75-80% of minimum availability. This same line can be used for further IN orders for Vikrant class ships (IAC-1 and IAC-1a or whatever be the designation) as Rafale won't be used on STOBAR carriers. This way, we can groom one private player to compete with HAL assuming Rafale will be made with HAL only if Make in India part gets sorted out.

This will provide a low cost MRCA option to IAF and will be quicker to fill Sqdn numbers. I am not suggesting this at the cost of Rafale though but to compliment it to address urgent requirements. I would have wished for LCA MK-2 any day but seems this will be delayed so, this option seems better to fill that void with Make in India. Russians will be more than willing to oblige given their current economy. Just a thought ......

(too bad.. android can be so irritating sometimes sorry for any typos as its written by phone)

 

[Ankit Kumar]

@PARIKRAMA Bro, I was suggesting MIGs as Make in India.. not any of the self purchase. If we are going for of the self option then more capable Su-34/35 series comes to picture along with PAK-FA mentioned by you. In case Rafale is taking more time then instead of other options available, MIG-35 locally with a private vender will be better option due to its commonality with IAF and IN Mig-29s (IN Migs are more closer to it). It won't need extra infra costs as we already have them placed for MIG-29UPG/KUB planes along with its spare supply chain. Only effort will be needed to customize that with some Israeli goodies and improve existing spare supply chain to have 75-80% of minimum availability. This same line can be used for further IN orders for Vikrant class ships (IAC-1 and IAC-1a or whatever be the designation) as Rafale won't be used on STOBAR carriers. This way, we can groom one private player to compete with HAL assuming Rafale will be made with HAL only if Make in India part gets sorted out.

This will provide a low cost MRCA option to IAF and will be quicker to fill Sqdn numbers. I am not suggesting this at the cost of Rafale though but to compliment it to address urgent requirements. I would have wished for LCA MK-2 any day but seems this will be delayed so, this option seems better to fill that void with Make in India. Russians will be more than willing to oblige given their current economy. Just a thought ......

I came across some Eurofighter fans ( who had a soft corner for American jets too ) some months ago on a defence group in FB. Some of them were Indian and were highly against Mig35 for IAF. Most reasons were its capabilities in comparison to Rafale or Eurofighter.
I would take that, but one thing they said was that its still not in service anywhere, this year TASS reported about the start of delivery of first Mig35s to RuAF. And IAF would not want to be a testbed.

I am sure some of our people will share this concern too.

Therefore, is it not better to go for 2 squadrons of Mig29s?
It has some advantages
1. The deal will be small, with less money involved . So less negotiations.
2. Mig29 already in service and proved itself, no one can say against it.

And then go for localised production of 5~6 squadrons of Mig35s in India.
Till the Mig29s comes, RuAF would have started receiving the Mig35s.

A second thing which I feel we have let go is the option of second hand mirages. We haven't put any effort. Say if we are able to procure ~2 squadrons , we will be replacing 50% of our Mig27 fleet.

But as said.... lots of confusion.
If the GOI wants, it can take simple routes...

 

[dadeechi]

I think the Mig-35 is one of the best Russian fighter to fit the bill of MMRCA.The problem could be on availability and life expectancy of Engine, EW suite compare to Rafale, survivability in deep penetration, nuclear role also but if ypu have 54 Rafale it's not critical.

Cost - There are cheaper options. US options are cheaper for both Unit and LCC ( if you take the cost of ammunitions and MLUs)

Arrest and Increase the falling numbers - There are other fighters which can be inducted faster (US can deliver much faster than France)

Strategic/Nuclear delivery - There are Russian options apart from Missiles

Reliability/Availability - US Options can alleviate that

The biggest reasons for picking RAFALEs for MMRCA are

1) Develop MIC in India. This is presumably dead with the no TOT/MII component news that we hear (at least that's the official line)

2) Capability - No doubt it is a capable fighter but at what cost? How many F-16s or SU-35s or J-20s fighters can a RAFALE take on?

Unless this deal has huge MII component, this deal is a huge scam in the making.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Techy
MII for 60 jets is too low number.. Bcz the line will take 3 years for production to start and productivity per year even if its between 16-20 jets a year will need line to run at least 7 years implying a minimum 110+ orders

Effectively the cost of producing a Mig 35 in India will be lot bit more than in Russia.. Of course, when you add more components like Israeli and French the price would go up..

Its an option no doubt but will need deeper thought process..

Supposedly a key question, whom will Russia like to Partner - HAL or a pvt company? Russia will always prefer HAL btw.. In their line of thinking they have a deep understanding with working with HAL for so long time.

If you see discussions, its a bit slow when we talk about MII so such a decision itself will take around 2 years minimum to arrive at tangible position of can do or cannot do types.. Implying the first Mig35 will caome not sooner than minimum of 5+ years from MII part... And god forbid, if there is any issue with other deals in our relationship with Russia it will get delayed more, then Mig 35 comes out of our MII plant closer to 6-7 years,,

Thats the kind of associated risk when we deal with a Russian jet under MII

@Ankit Kumar
i was saying a similar thing to techy above.

A localised production has a risk element like what you saw in last december when everything got linked together.. Surely you understand this solution will lead to even more less bargaining scope with our hand and perhaps more strong fisted response form Russia

 

[Taygibay]

Comment as requested by friend :

UAEAF is inclined to procure—just like India—the Rafale MMRCAs & Scorpene SSKs as well & therefore Indian human resource assistance becomes imperative.

I stopped reading after that. The word therefore in this sentence makes no sense ...
except in the mind of an overly nationalist person.

Full Definition of therefore
1a : for that reason : consequently b : because of that c : on that ground

There is no causal link whatsoever between the 2 deals. India has not signed for Rafale yet.
It may not ever as wished by so many here. To imply it has a role in Rafale sales when it can't
conclude its own buy is preposterous. The planes they want are not the same by a huge margin.

For instance, the UAE had asked for a 9T M-88. How is a country that cannot make its own engine
going to help on that front? What added value would come out of a Bharati local line?

The inability to put anything in perspective without including your dreams of grandeur is flagrant!
Repeat after me : reality is a harsh mistress! Or in hyper-nationalist terms : a harsh imaginary one!

Fact : Dassault makes the Rafale and India makes the Tejas.
Fact : The UAE are looking for a bit more than what LCA is.

THEREFORE ... the UAE is not linked to Rafale in India in any way.

Good day to all lucid folks and better than good luck to the rest, Tay.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Comment as requested by friend :



I stopped reading after that. The word therefore in this sentence makes no sense ...
except in the mind of an overly nationalist person.

Full Definition of therefore
1a : for that reason : consequently b : because of that c : on that ground

There is no causal link whatsoever between the 2 deals. India has not signed for Rafale yet.
It may not ever as wished by so many here. To imply it has a role in Rafale sales when it can't
conclude its own buy is preposterous. The planes they want are not the same by a huge margin.

For instance, the UAE had asked for a 9T M-88. How is a country that cannot make its own engine
going to help on that front? What added value would come out of a Bharati local line?

The inability to put anything in perspective without including your dreams of grandeur is flagrant!
Repeat after me : reality is a harsh mistress! Or in hyper-nationalist terms : a harsh imaginary one!

Fact : Dassault makes the Rafale and India makes the Tejas.
Fact : The UAE are looking for a bit more than what LCA is.

THEREFORE ... the UAE is not linked to Rafale in India in any way.

Good day to all lucid folks and better than good luck to the rest, Tay.

Ok say Tay, if India also agrees for the similar customization same like UAE and says lets share costs and let me produce your required Rafales from my plant in India which DA will be setting up, then what you say..

An example is the M88 Engine itself.. Instead of say 83-85Kn we agree for 89-90Kn one which UAE wants..

Is that a possibility? Sharing customization cost for few products which helps lower cost both sides..

or at least the customization cost for Safran part..Jets produced anywhere

 

[Techy]

MII for 60 jets is too low number.. Bcz the line will take 3 years for production to start and productivity per year even if its between 16-20 jets a year will need line to run at least 7 years implying a minimum 110+ orders

Effectively the cost of producing a Mig 35 in India will be lot bit more than in Russia.. Of course, when you add more components like Israeli and French the price would go up..

Its an option no doubt but will need deeper thought process..

I was proposing orders of minimum 100 Jets under MII as highlighted below, to be delivered by 2024 time-frame (if there is any second line other than Rafale as Gripen or any Teen Series won't be of any benefit) and utilized by both IAF and IN. This would be much better only if Rafale is going to be restricted in numbers and IAF being compelled to use this line till 5th Gen comes into play (thus it will attract a private player due to bigger numbers 110+ in total. IAF: 60+ and IN minimum 4 sqdn of MIG-29s for STOBAR IACs).

I read somewhere that Mig is willing to ensure 75-80% of average availability for MIG-35. Hence, similar to MIG-29 UPG lines, 60 MIG-35 planes can be ordered for Airforce and same production line may be used for further Navy orders for IAC-1 and IAC-2 (1A) as well. This will guarantee minimum order of 120 MIG-35/MIG-29KUBs for that production line and hence will justify the cost of setting up that line with a Private player as well (same was hinted by MIG CEO).

Yes, cost would be more than the cost in Russia but it will play its part in developing domestic Aviation industry as well. The comments from MIG CEO indicated that they were open to private partner though but still there is a chance that they may play safe and go with HAL.

Too much confusion going on now a days so one thing is sure that some bigger announcement by MoD is due in near future.

Note: Integrating Israeli goodies was to attract more IAF interest as they love those stuffs. I still vouch for Rafale though as its more all-round plateform .. this arguement is just for quelling SAAB/Boeing/LM lobby who are pitching their product for faster induction pointing to Tejas MK2 delays/MK1 low rate of production and higher Rafale costs.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I was proposing orders of minimum 100 Jets under MII as highlighted below, to be delivered by 2024 time-frame (if there is any second line other than Rafale as Gripen or any Teen Series won't be of any benefit) and utilized by both IAF and IN. This would be much better only if Rafale is going to be restricted in numbers and IAF being compelled to use this line till 5th Gen comes into play (thus it will attract a private player due to bigger numbers 110+ in total. IAF: 60+ and IN minimum 4 sqdn of MIG-29s for STOBAR IACs).


Yes, cost would be more than the cost in Russia but it will play its part in developing domestic Aviation industry as well. The comments from MIG CEO indicated that they were open to private partner though but still there is a chance that they may play safe and go with HAL.

Too much confusion going on now a days so one thing is sure that some bigger announcement by MoD is due in near future.

Note: Integrating Israeli goodies was to attract more IAF interest as they love those stuffs. I still vouch for Rafale though as its more all-round plateform .. this arguement is just for quelling SAAB/Boeing/LM lobby who are pitching their product for faster induction pointing to Tejas MK2 delays/MK1 low rate of production and higher Rafale costs.

My bad bro, i thought only from IAF perspective and always considered IN needs to be over and above as added goods for benefit case..

Yes the production issues of LCA program and future uncertain which even i have said what happened ina meeting as told by sources does point to everyone dancing for a scoop of the big jet market...

I still have a feeling DM is bluffing and is using carrot and stick policy.. But then who knows..

 

[Armani]

@PARIKRAMA

I've searched for Gessler's profile on PDF and it seems he is banned. I don't know if the bad is permanent or temporary.

About the UAE deal, I agree it would make sense if that aspect is tied in to the present MMRCA negotiations.