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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Is that a possibility? Sharing customization cost for few products which helps lower cost both sides..

Of course! IF the 2 selections were identical, IF India had a line, IF ...
We're not close to the above though.

At some point, one has to be blunt. India adds no value to the Rafale!
It could IF it signed for MII Rafales later on. But that's 1 more pesky IF!

Sadly, no amount of IFs makes up reality. In fact, relying on IFs is the best way to miss on what IS.

At present, the numbers are 54 incl. options vs 60 +-. Relying on this,
the common line should be in Abu Dhabi and Delhi buying from them?

I'm not attacking India in saying so, just questioning recurrent delusions.
Be(know)ing what you are is a prerequisite to being more than you can be.

If Usain Bolt had never trained because he believed himself a 5 second
100M runner, we'd never have witnessed a below 9.6 s dash!
If you want to shoot for the stars, you better have both feet firmly planted
or parallax is gonna send your shot and dreams so widely off course that
you'll reach infinity's remotest corners before you do your goals.

Can it happen? It could ... but eating out of cans is a surefire way to miss
out on a real meal.

Once India stops acting like it can and does what it really could, I'm sure
we'll discover it actually can. The former can is beans, the latter caviar!

Discussions about India selling Rafales when it can't even buy them are ...
childish dreams upon a far away star, sorry, Tay.
 
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One more theory coming out now...

Seems UAE 60 jets deal and Indian Rafale deals are connected.

UAEAF is inclined to procure—just like India—the Rafale MMRCAs & Scorpene SSKs as well & therefore Indian human resource assistance becomes imperative. Furthermore, if a an Indian private-sector company teams up with its UAE counterpart (which has access to the UAE’s sovereign wealth investment funds) to assemble & extend through-life product-support for the Rafale fleets of both the IAF & UAEAF, then this becomes a win-win situation from a financial standpoint. This is what has been going on behind-the-scenes & that’s why negotiations have been protractive. In the coming months all this will come to light, rest assured.

- Prasun K Sengupta

I think he's talking about sharing support infrastructure. I'm pretty sure the UAE Rafales will be built in France. We can aim to build the Saudi deal for 72 instead.

All export jets are pretty much the same standard as the ADLA's version. UAE seems to have chosen the 8.3 ton version, the same as India.
 
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I think he's talking about sharing support infrastructure. I'm pretty sure the UAE Rafales will be built in France. We can aim to build the Saudi deal for 72 instead.

All export jets are pretty much the same standard as the ADLA's version. UAE seems to have chosen the 8.3 ton version, the same as India.

Thats what i pointed later bcz at first i thought perhaps since the engine may take time say another 2 years whichever way we see, the birds can be produced either at Merignac or may be in India.. But yes thats a stronger possibility that its directly from Merignac line.

Interestingly, if UAE and India both have agreed for 83-85 Kn or 8.3-8.5T engine , wont this reduce cost of customizations as both sides could share it..

Also what are the chances UAE still thinking about the 9T ones and India also thinking for 9T ones implying 89-90Kn thrust..
We know last time they did ask for 9T ones..
 
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I happened to see a telecast on the Rafale acquisition hosted by an English news channel , shortly after P.M.Modi's trip to France.The panelists were ACM - Tipnis , BHARAT Karnad , Shishir Gupta & another participant whose name I forget.

What came through very clearly , was the vehemence with which ACM Tipnis was opposed to inducting any more FA ( Fighter Aircrafts ) from Russia.

Apparently, the Russians shared pretty much all the info abt Su 30 MKI with the Chinese apart from selling them the Su 30 MKK ,going against their word given to the then GoI , which signed the agreement ( I believe it was the UF govt , with Mulayam YADAV as the DM under the premiership of P.M Gujral ) & the IAF .To add to that were the Admiral Goshkov cost over runs & the T- 90 performance imbroglio .You can read this along with @Milispec posts on how the specifications on the MMRCA tender were tweaked to put the aircrafts manufacturered by Russia at a disadvantage. I also recall Karnad being silent when confronted with the fact that the Su 30 MKK was sold to the Chinese against sovereign guarantees not uo do do by the Russians. I remember Karnad coming up with the lame excuse that the Yeltsin era was that of tremendous economic depravation for the Russians & the Russia of then should not be confused with the Russia of now.

FGFA was being pursued more by the MoD than by the IAF.All the subsequent happenings duly reported in the media then & now seems to confirm the unhappiness with the FGFA programme by the IAF.I believe , it will be pursued , nevertheless, given the fact that we lack choices & for maintaining our strategic relationship with the Russians with the caveat that the Russians should come up with the technological inputs which satisfy the IAF .


The Rafale deal would be concluded with a final inventory in excess of 300 FA with the IAF & the IN as @Abingdonboy & @PARIKRAMA have been arguing in almost every thread on the Rafale .Hats off to both of them for their insights , off the record sippets of info & their technical prowess in proving why Rafale is the right choice for the IAF the high cost notwithstanding. One may also see a deepening of Indo French strategic ties with future collaboration with Dassault in the AMCA project along with the Israelis .

Which brings us to the LCA - Mk 2 & the Gripen , F 16 / F 18 issue.I think it's no longer a matter of speculation that we'd see the FOC approved LCA - Mk 2 not earlier than 2024 / 25 timelines .Which is the reason for the current dilemma that the DM faces given the depleting nos of the IAF .

I believe the Gripen will be ruled out as they don't being anything new to the table either in the form of technology or anything else .Given that the tech specs of the Gripen NG is more or less similar to the LCA - Mk 2 , there seems no logical reason why would the MoD or the IAF choose to go with it.After all the Gripen NG is expected to be ready by 2019 & the LCA - Mk 2 by 2025. There is not much of a time difference to make a case for acquisition of the Gripen .

Which brings us to the F16 / F18 FA & the US .Given that the MoD has already approved purchase of the 40 Super Sukhois from Russia ( whether this was part of an earlier plan or whether this is to do with bolstering the nos of the ever rapidly depleting inventory of FA with the IAF is not clear as of now ) , it should be enough to mollify the Russians )

I believe we may see the acquisition of either the F 16 or the F 18 ( some 100 odd aircrafts ) to make up the shortfall of FA in the IAF given that the LCA - Mk 2 will arrive only towards the end of the 2030's . This would be fine for two reasons .Demonstration of our willingness to develop & deepen strategic ties with the US & to reassure the US that they will have a stake in India's huge defence pie too given their support to us on various issues fora( Indo US civil N Co operation , Facilitating our entry to the NSG , the Wassenaar Group , MTCR , etc & helping our effort to beciming a permanent member of the UNSC .A certain amount of payback is called for & is expected ) & the gradual convergence of Indo US strategic ties given the rise of China .

This collaboration of which MII is going to be a part will also be a test case by both parties to see how such a deepening strategic engagement pans out .From India's POV , It's a low risk effort as whichever FA is chosen ( they are both formidable as well as tried & tested platforms ) they will not impinge too much on our strategic calculations & our defence operations given the US penchant for dictating their allies policy & use of defence equipment ( BCA , CISMOA , etc . as well as prohibition of N arming FA of US origin as well as their use against a nation considered friendly by the US) . The general maintenance & availability of spares to mitigate against US disapproval in case such a scenario arises needs to be factored it before such a decision is taken.

The downside is that the LCA - MK2 , as & when it comes will be inducted in reduced nos.

A very good analysis bro..

Yes the scope of another fighter seems to be here owing to the LCA (any version) giving a unique opportunity to fill in the gaps.. Yes a US jet does provide us back with Carrot and stick policy something US has been doing with us for good time..

So from strategic perspective thats a possibility no doubt.. But then again both teens failed MMRCA evaluation.. So will the newer versions test in Indian conditions to prove their mettle.. Or its a leap of faith based on governments trust on each other..

In all where will our own LCA program head.. as many feel its an unwanted baby, will it remain like that only..
 
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I also recall Karnad being silent when confronted with the fact that the Su 30 MKK was sold to the Chinese against sovereign guarantees not uo do do by the Russians.

If I was asked that question, I would have said the MKK is an entirely different aircraft altogether. It has nothing to do with the MKI program. The manufacturer of the two aircraft are different. Karnad has no clue about aircraft.

FGFA was being pursued more by the MoD than by the IAF.All the subsequent happenings duly reported in the media then & now seems to confirm the unhappiness with the FGFA programme by the IAF.I believe , it will be pursued , nevertheless, given the fact that we lack choices & for maintaining our strategic relationship with the Russians with the caveat that the Russians should come up with the technological inputs which satisfy the IAF .

The IAF is whole hog behind the FGFA. But they are more concerned with immediate necessity. FGFA is an aircraft meant for the post 2025 timeframe.

I believe the Gripen will be ruled out...

You may be in for a surprise.

Thats what i pointed later bcz at first i thought perhaps since the engine may take time say another 2 years whichever way we see, the birds can be produced either at Merignac or may be in India.. But yes thats a stronger possibility that its directly from Merignac line.

Interestingly, if UAE and India both have agreed for 83-85 Kn or 8.3-8.5T engine , wont this reduce cost of customizations as both sides could share it..

Also what are the chances UAE still thinking about the 9T ones and India also thinking for 9T ones implying 89-90Kn thrust..
We know last time they did ask for 9T ones..

It's not possible to link the UAE deal with the Indian deal. Only future cooperation cannot be ruled out. All immediate cooperation will be with France only because the contract is being negotiated based on French production costs. It is possible that UAE is waiting for India to sign the deal first so they can have some extra leverage in terms of costs. The Indian contract may only come with a 10% profit margin while the UAE contract may come with a 30% margin, they may use the Indian contract to negotiate for further reduction. Overall, there should be very little initial contact between the two countries.

Of course, there is a chance UAE may want Indian weapons and avionics on the Rafale, but that we will see in time.

I doubt there is a 90KN engine available.

@Taygibay, Trappier has said on record that French subcontractors find the Rafale project less desirable compared to Falcon in terms of profits. So it is possible that, except for the 11 Rafales per year that France needs, all non-French spares and support can be moved to India. If the Indian line is more profitable, then most or all of the Rafale production for exports can be moved to India as well.
 
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Also what are the chances UAE still thinking about the 9T ones and India also thinking for 9T ones implying 89-90Kn thrust..
We know last time they did ask for 9T ones..
9 t isn't an interesting engine compare to 8.3 t. Because it needs a re-design of air intakes and this imply:
  • More Drag
  • Less Srealth
  • Upgrade of FCS
  • Going back to anechoïd chamber to make again all tests for SPECTRA with all combination of weapons load
 
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@Taygibay, Trappier has said on record that French subcontractors find the Rafale project less desirable compared to Falcon in terms of profits. So it is possible that, except for the 11 Rafales per year that France needs, all non-French spares and support can be moved to India. If the Indian line is more profitable, then most or all of the Rafale production for exports can be moved to India as well.

Don't get offended random mate but that's yet another case of looking at the world
through India colored glasses.
Trappier made that comment to push for Rafale numbers in French services to go
up to at least the reduced 225 goal beyond the 180 currently assured.
It is a Franco-French argument that in no way relates to India.

Dassault is both privately owned and government supported through Airbus shares.
What's more, Dassault Group GIMD is the parent corp of Dassault Aviation but also
of the Dassault Systems division and a couple more. It's 56% family owned and
profitable. They even own newspapers ... often used to hand messages out to the powers that be.

What he meant is to put pressure on the French state by leveraging the group's ability
to survive without fighters production. One needs to understand that his company is
a strategic asset however. If it stopped producing combat jets, France would have to
buy foreign. Gone would be the independence in foreign policy it currently enjoys.
It won't happen. Besides, you forgot the exports that add to the existing line output.
Your point made sense before Egypt and Qatar signed. India waited to long ... once more
for this view of yours to apply!

To reverse your question, since LCA is presently earmarked for about a hundred jets,
would you agree to HAL being sold if a bigger order for Tejas came along, if say South
Africa signed for 125 of them? No? Then neither will we! That simple!

Great day to you, Tay.

P.S.
Add a secondary question : Would buyers trust HAL over Dassault quality wise?
The answers might not be pleasant! That question is IMHoO better left unasked.
 
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I'm not technically competent to comment on it I'm an amateur with a deep interest in defence & strategic affairs.I've merely reported on what I've come across.I believe the complaint was two fold - the fact that the Russians sold a similar FA in spite of sovereign guarantees not to do so as well as sharing info on the Su 30 MKI ( they were privy to sensitive info during the integration of Israeli & French gadgets to the Su 30MKI )

The Su-30MKK is a strike aircraft, it has a completely different airframe and avionics. The MKI is an air superiority aircraft, completely different airframe and avionics.

The MKK is made by KNAAPO, the engine by Salyut. The MKI is made by Irkut, engine by Saturn. Both are entirely different aircraft made by entirely different companies.

Believe it or not, the Russians are highly protective of their proprietary information. And the MKI program is very important for the Russian military, they are buying over 160 of them. So the MKI program is a state secret. They have not purchased any of the MKK for their own air force since it's an export grade aircraft.

Apart from Russia and India, only Algeria and Malaysia have access to the MKI.

I'm aware of it @ timelines of the FGFA. The IAF's is an unhappy lot with the Russians in general & the FGFA in particular but are also aware they don't have much of a choice .I can't encapsulate everything that ACM Tipnis said except the essence , which I've distilled & conveyed here.

The IAF's problems with Russia has been the Indian bureaucracy. The same babudom comes into play with western fighters also. So they are trying to change the root cause of the problem. Rest assured, the FGFA deal will be better negotiated than the MKI deal.
 
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Don't get offended random mate but that's yet another case of looking at the world
through India colored glasses.
Trappier made that comment to push for Rafale numbers in French services to go
up to at least the reduced 225 goal beyond the 180 currently assured.
It is a Franco-French argument that in no way relates to India.

I have taken no offense over anything, don't worry. I was adding to potential business India can offer.

To reverse your question, since LCA is presently earmarked for about a hundred jets,
would you agree to HAL being sold if a bigger order for Tejas came along, if say South
Africa signed for 125 of them? No? Then neither will we! That simple!

Nobody is selling Dassault or HAL.

P.S.
Add a secondary question : Would buyers trust HAL over Dassault quality wise?
The answers might not be pleasant! That question is IMHoO better left unasked.

HAL won't manufacture Rafales in India, Dassault will, with an Indian private sector partner. So quality won't be compromised since Dassault will run the program in India and have executive control. No different from Airbus production in China.

Dassault want to open a Falcon production line in India, so the Rafale line will be an extension of that.
RIL-Dassault to make business jets
..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Rafale Partners with Reliance
 
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Nobody is selling Dassault or HAL.

Supposing a line in India to make Rafales for export is tantamount to a sale of its milavia sector ATM.

No different from Airbus production in China.
Very different! Mil vs civilian. A320s don't bomb anyone, not even Daesh!

Dassault want to open a Falcon production line in India, so the Rafale line will be an extension of that.

Wow! I'm sorry to say so but that is an inept view.
If it was true, buying a couple more SuperJets than other clients would get you the T-50 prod line.
It won't happen!

Good day nonetheless, Tay.
 
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All those who are supporting Mig-35 for MII, also remember that RuAF is expected to place first orders only around 2018. So the aircraft program is for a post-2020 period. After that it will take a few years for them to make the aircraft operational.

In fact, except for Rafale, all other aircraft, F-16, SH, Mig-35, Gripen-NG and EFT have to undergo a significant period of development before it is ready for IAF specifications.

The only upside is the MII program for each of the aircraft will be delayed due to negotiations and the first aircraft can be expected only after 2021-22. 2 years to negotiate, 3 years to develop and flight test new tech and simultaneously build production facilities, and about 1-2 years for first aircraft to be delivered.

Out of all those aircraft, only Gripen NG is ahead in the development curve since first flight is expected this year. First aircraft is expected after 2018. So the potential for delays is the least with NG.

Supposing a line in India to make Rafales for export is tantamount to a sale of its milavia sector ATM.

Why? It is no different from Apple making their phones in China. Apple/Dassault controls the technology and IP. Profits can potentially be greater in India. French Dassault can manufacture more Falcons in France.

Very different! Mil vs civilian. A320s don't bomb anyone, not even Daesh!

The purpose is different but companies are the same.

Wow! I'm sorry to say so but that is an inept view.
If it was true, buying a couple more SuperJets than other clients would get you the T-50 prod line.
It won't happen!

This isn't just my opinion. Picdel shares the same. And according to Picdel, any excess manpower from Rafale lines can be converted to Falcon lines after production is complete.

And I'm not sure if you have read enough about it, but Dassault plans to partner with Reliance for making the Rafales in India.
India's largest-ever military deal is likely to bring in big business for the private sector with the French side looking to set up a production centre for the Rafale fighter aircraft as well as a low-cost executive jet in India, besides sharing vital aircraft technology for the indigenous Tejas project.

Officials familiar with the project have told ET that major partners for this 'Make in India' project are currently being identified by the French side and are likely to include Anil Ambani's Reliance Defence Systems, Noida-based Samtel and Bharat Electronics. These officials, both Indian and French, spoke on the condition they not be identified.

Read more at:
In boost for 'Make in India', Dassault may manufacture Rafale fighter aircraft in India - The Economic Times
 
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All those who are supporting Mig-35 for MII, also remember that RuAF is expected to place first orders only around 2018. So the aircraft program is for a post-2020 period. After that it will take a few years for them to make the aircraft operational.

In fact, except for Rafale, all other aircraft, F-16, SH, Mig-35, Gripen-NG and EFT have to undergo a significant period of development before it is ready for IAF specifications.

The only upside is the MII program for each of the aircraft will be delayed due to negotiations and the first aircraft can be expected only after 2021-22. 2 years to negotiate, 3 years to develop and flight test new tech and simultaneously build production facilities, and about 1-2 years for first aircraft to be delivered.

Out of all those aircraft, only Gripen NG is ahead in the development curve since first flight is expected this year. First aircraft is expected after 2018. So the potential for delays is the least with NG.



Why? It is no different from Apple making their phones in China. Apple/Dassault controls the technology and IP. Profits can potentially be greater in India. French Dassault can manufacture more Falcons in France.



The purpose is different but companies are the same.



This isn't just my opinion. Picdel shares the same. And according to Picdel, any excess manpower from Rafale lines can be converted to Falcon lines after production is complete.

And I'm not sure if you have read enough about it, but Dassault plans to partner with Reliance for making the Rafales in India.

MiG To Sign MiG-35 Fighter Contract With Russian Defense Ministry

I do not agree that you are preferring a paper plane as of now over an aircraft which has over a dozen airframe built.

And I would prefer a 60 million dollar Mig35 any day over an assembly of Gripen NG at 200 million dollars with foreign parts.
 
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