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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

The point of this comment ?
the point here is to personally insult you and your country some poster here tend to do that why they have nothing constrictive to say and have to reply for the sake of replying.
 
Indians should do a value analysis on how much utility Rafale offers vis-a-vis alternatives like Vipers or hornets given a baseline cost. For eg say you have a budget of 10 Billion $ - what would you rather buy? 36 Rafales or 80+ F/18 or 126 F-16 Block 60.

It's a poor analogy but for the uninitiated consider any luxury auto-mobile: While a Bentley may offer more features than say a Lexus, the value proposition of Lexus is much higher. Sheikhs will go for a Gold Plated Bentley or Royce cause it carries the snob value but a country like India has to be judicious in choice considering the enormity of the role the jets are being bought in to fill up.

Forgive me for the simplistic analysis as value proposition is just one of the factors and there are other factors in play too of which I am ignorant like

1. Logistic Commonality
2. Level of tech transfer
3. Bundling with other sensitive projects
4. Strategic and Political Concerns
5. Vested interests, corruption and Lobbying
6. Opportunity cost of time already invested
7. Maintenance, availability, support and training.

Based on merit alone Rafale is one of the finest jets in it's generation and I have great respect for the French ingenuity which enabled them to deliver a fighter jet equivalent of Sistine Madonna.
 
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Indians should do a value analysis on how much utility Rafale offers vis-a-vis alternatives like Vipers or hornets given a baseline cost. For eg say you have a budget of 10 Billion $ - what would you rather buy? 36 Rafales or 80+ F/18 or 126 F-16 Block 60.

Those SHs are expensive too. The Rafale's $8B cost includes up to $2B as cost of IAF specific customization.

To top that, the Rafale comes with high level sensor fusion that the SH doesn't. And the Rafale's RCS is the same as the F-22's.
 
he is talking about frontal RCS of rafale and sir to a common man like me how don't have access to classified information this still seems like a little far fetched claim that a fifth gen jet which was designed from the start to have extremely low rcs has same frontal rcs as that of a 4.5gen but then again i don't have means to verify this claim nor can i prove it wrong.
 
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Those SHs are expensive too. The Rafale's $8B cost includes up to $2B as cost of IAF specific customization.

To top that, the Rafale comes with high level sensor fusion that the SH doesn't. And the Rafale's RCS is the same as the F-22's.

I am not an airwoman so will take your statements at face value and as I stated in my prior post Rafale may have few extra goodies but is it worth the price being charged?

Anyway I will restrict myself from posting further as at this point it's all smoke and mirrors and hardly any facts to reach informed conclusions with.

Thanks for your reply.
 
IMHO the thread turned a bit sombre in last few pages with I guess the merged thread and lots of aggressive comments.. Let's not accuse countries here or point fingers..

TBH I still recall the triad cluster in the original Saab proprietary image..
474196_b6986d2d408b9375f0de88b080218293.jpg


As you see the triad cluster is made up of Rafale at top, a little less capability and little less LCC cost for EF and little less capability and higher LCC cost for F18

The 16s is almost reaching 60% of Rafale capability at almost 70-75% of LCC cost
Of course it pegs in favour of Gripen as its their research of a single engine fighter

But interesting to me is based on this the 16s are outright ruled out bcz Gripen NG is a superior product in comparison to 16s

As far as cost saving of 18s is concerned whatever is saved upfront I believe the same we will end up spending over LCC

So interestingly 18s are not the real replacement or best second option for India as its catching your ear clockwise or anticlockwise situation..

Nor 16s provide any potential better capability vs LCC benefit over Gripen.. This category is best reserved for LCA as I have always stated and will continue to say..

Unfortunately most posters miss these small snippets and arrive at hasty conclusions..

Let's wait a bit more to see how everything plays out..
 
IMHO the thread turned a bit sombre in last few pages with I guess the merged thread and lots of aggressive comments.. Let's not accuse countries here or point fingers..

TBH I still recall the triad cluster in the original Saab proprietary image..
View attachment 294623

As you see the triad cluster is made up of Rafale at top, a little less capability and little less LCC cost for EF and little less capability and higher LCC cost for F18

The 16s is almost reaching 60% of Rafale capability at almost 70-75% of LCC cost
Of course it pegs in favour of Gripen as its their research of a single engine fighter

But interesting to me is based on this the 16s are outright ruled out bcz Gripen NG is a superior product in comparison to 16s

As far as cost saving of 18s is concerned whatever is saved upfront I believe the same we will end up spending over LCC

So interestingly 18s are not the real replacement or best second option for India as its catching your ear clockwise or anticlockwise situation..

Nor 16s provide any potential better capability vs LCC benefit over Gripen.. This category is best reserved for LCA as I have always stated and will continue to say..

Unfortunately most posters miss these small snippets and arrive at hasty conclusions..

Let's wait a bit more to see how everything plays out..

I would take that chart with a pinch of salt - strike that - bucket of salt.

Chart is ridiculous as there is no basis on which you can chart operation capability on Y Axis. Operational capability is not one factor but 100s of individual factors which are neither additive nor subtractive while LCC is. Any way without a detailed explanation on how that chart was arrived at let alone the veracity of that information I will take it as an infantile attempt by SAAB to pitch their product.
 
I am not an airwoman so will take your statements at face value

Neither am I. So we are on the same level here.

and as I stated in my prior post Rafale may have few extra goodies but is it worth the price being charged?

Yes. Rafale is not just a 4th gen fighter. Even though it has not received any stealth shaping, RCS changes can be accomplished through active cancellation.

Anyway I will restrict myself from posting further as at this point it's all smoke and mirrors and hardly any facts to reach informed conclusions with.

Thanks for your reply.

I don't question your position on this. I was skeptical about a lot of Rafale's capabilities until I met Picdel.

You know how many people on forums and other places say that some topics are well below their pay grade? Well, there is a guy here called @Picdelamirand-oil who is well above that pay grade. His knowledge rivals NATO generals, most likely more since he was in the tech field. He has supervised nuclear fusion programs, a lot of weapons platforms for the French Navy and also supervised the navy's nukes. He also overwatched the ASMP program. So he is right up there on the top. Maybe you can direct questions at him...

Picdel has confirmed a lot of information about active cancellation on the Rafale. It means the stealth on the Rafale is far superior to the one on the F-22 and F-35. Even @gambit can confirm that if you want.

TBH I still recall the triad cluster in the original Saab proprietary image..
View attachment 294623

Only the ones in grey are correct. The ones in red are merely based on both informed and uninformed speculation. Don't put too much weightage on that graph.
 
I would take that chart with a pinch of salt - strike that - bucket of salt.

Chart is ridiculous as there is no basis on which you can chart operation capability on Y Axis. Operational capability is not one factor but 100s of individual factors which are neither additive nor subtractive while LCC is. Any way without a detailed explanation on how that chart was arrived at let alone the veracity of that information I will take it as an infantile attempt by SAAB to pitch their product.

True and that holds true for all data that's in net as most are either leaks or by defense analysts or by marketing ppl favouring at least one company for which they made the research..

The point is whichever way we say it, the MMRCA rejects includes both 16s and 18s./so anyway we going for any one them or both of them is saying the whole technical evaluation point is just wrong and IAF goofed up the evaluation.. Or we have to state that the actual performance of both teens is much superior to our test results .. This argument won't cut ice first with IAF and then secondly with our auditor CAG as they will rip apart the government on this..

This the 18s chance for a line is at best a chance for IN who likes Rafale M not 18s btw . so a 200 jet order if IN can give well and good..

For IAF to give 18 order it has to go on record with MOD and completely destroy the evaluation of MMRCA... Which is practically not possible..
 
@randomradio is obliged to summarize dozens of pages of arguments with me in one post. This explains that he glorifies me a little, so that PDF forumers more readily accept the conclusions we have reached.
 
True and that holds true for all data that's in net as most are either leaks or by defense analysts or by marketing ppl favouring at least one company for which they made the research..

The point is whichever way we say it, the MMRCA rejects includes both 16s and 18s./so anyway we going for any one them or both of them is saying the whole technical evaluation point is just wrong and IAF goofed up the evaluation.. Or we have to state that the actual performance of both teens is much superior to our test results .. This argument won't cut ice first with IAF and then secondly with our auditor CAG as they will rip apart the government on this..

This the 18s chance for a line is at best a chance for IN who likes Rafale M not 18s btw . so a 200 jet order if IN can give well and good..

For IAF to give 18 order it has to go on record with MOD and completely destroy the evaluation of MMRCA... Which is practically not possible..

There has been lot of water under the bridge since MMRCA and the version on offer is I believe superior to the one presented for evaluation earlier with perceived deficiencies covered up.

Anyway it is not like Rafale is holding up it's end when it comes to price offered under MMRCA and it is fair as the parameters are quite different now due to additional modifications and advancements in electronics on offer.

Decision has to be made on Price/Capability ~Value on offer in '16-'19 rather than '08. I think your Govt is wise to this fact hence engaging in some hard ball negotiations leading to protracted delays.

One additional point is that of your air forces evaluation process ~ Can one be completely sure that the parameters were not designed to favour one aircraft or the other. Let's be clear I am not saying that Rafale is inferior but all the extras it brings in comparison to hornet - are they truly necessary when you look at the expense and urgency of acquisition?

If IAF was facing raptors then I would understand that the top shelf jet is needed but since the likely "bandits" would be Chinese Flankers/JF-17/F-16 upto next decade may be focus should be on increasing squadron numbers. AFAIK your own production "Tejas" is tad bit late.


Regards
 
@randomradio is obliged to summarize dozens of pages of arguments with me in one post. This explains that he glorifies me a little, so that PDF forumers more readily accept the conclusions we have reached.

I am actually encouraging them to ask questions, especially to you, instead of simply washing it all away as lies.

There has been lot of water under the bridge since MMRCA and the version on offer is I believe superior to the one presented for evaluation earlier with perceived deficiencies covered up.

Actually no MMRCA contender can match up to the Rafale's specific functions regardless of how well they are upgraded. There are a few reasons for that.

1. Rafale is the primary weapons delivery platform for the French. So they have put all of their knowledge into it. They don't have an alternative aircraft planned yet.

2. Due to the French policy of not accepting help from others during security problems, especially the US, they have geared their MIC towards being independent in all technologies. That's why they did not wait for the US and UK to conduct SEAD operations before they started their own operations in Libya. The French have only recently joined NATO.

3. The French have put so much money into the Rafale since the beginning that only the F-35 program can match up to it in terms of technologies in the West. The Rafale's electronics suite, particularly Spectra, has been under development since the early 90s and has consumed billions in funding. If Boeing is expected to replicate the capabilities of the Rafale, they will need billions of dollars and many years of research to match up. The same for any of the other contenders.

4. Only the Rafale is capable of nuclear strike. This has been a major deciding factor for the Make in India program.

5. Rafale can launch low earth satellites. A bonus feature.

As for the SH in particular, the SH version may have been upgraded since MMRCA, but nothing of that is really operationally flying as of now. The USN version is obsolete even by MMRCA standards, let alone the higher standards IAF is looking for today. The upgraded Block 3 version of the SH only matches older versions of Rafale, not the upcoming F3R version. And the SH has woefully inadequate performance even if Boeing introduces a 9G capable aircraft. The older versions of Rafale can easily manage 11G and the newer versions will be getting a new uprated engine of 8.3 tons thrust. The Rafale carries superior weapons. The SH is not nuclear capable either. So there really is no question of comparing the SH's "slightly lower price" versus the Rafale's next gen capabilities.

Anyway, there is some misconception about price. The SH's contract price to the RAAF was $6B in total for 24 jets.
Australia's new Super Hornet warplane unveiled
Australia's first new Super Hornet to be acquired under a $US6 billion ($A7.6 billion) deal has been unveiled in a glitzy ceremony held in a cavernous aircraft hangar at the Boeing factory in St Louis, USA.

That comes to $250M a unit. And this is for the basic USN version and not even the MMRCA version offered to the IAF. And this version doesn't include the extra cost for modifying 12 of them to the Growler version, which by the way is obsolete compared to Rafale. Not to mention the price is almost a decade old now.

Compared to that, the version of Rafale offered to the IAF is a generation ahead, is highly customized, and is expected to cost less than $250M.
Euro 2.5B unit costs for 36 jets
Euro 2B in customization
Euro 1.4B in basing, for 1 base
Euro 1B for 10 years spares
Euro 1B for weapons
Total = Euro 7.9B or Euro 220M/jet = $245M/jet

The Rafale is actually cheaper than the regular Super Hornet, forget a customized version.
 
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To be honest, 10 billions for only 36 units is crazy. India shall stick with MKI, and continue to churn out Tejas. I would rather induct F16 assembly lines instead of going Rafale. When a fighter is expensive like that, it's not operational capable anymore. It's just expensive showcase.

The good news is that both China and Pakistan are not malign neighbors so that Indians could take their time.
Su-30MKI is a fine bird, but it has low availability rate (at this moment) and is expensive to fly and maintain

this is one of the primary reasons why India wanted a Western fighter and not another Russia bird like the Mig 35
 
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